In what states can Average Joe request police to run NCIC check for stolen gun?

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One thing I forgot to note... I’d never run a serial number from a phone contact. The citizen requesting would have to come down to the station and make the request... I learned the hard way that it was all too easy to get scammed over the phone....
 
lemaymiami said:
One thing I forgot to note... I’d never run a serial number from a phone contact. The citizen requesting would have to come down to the station and make the request... I learned the hard way that it was all too easy to get scammed over the phone....
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Scammed in what way?
 
One of the first things every young cop needs to learn (the sooner, the better...) is that everyone lies... the good guys, the bad guys, the folks you work for, even your best friend... Much, much better to be face to face where you actually have a chance of figuring out what's actually going on....
Being more than just a bit naive when I first came into police work (already an Army vet who thought he knew the score...) it took me a while to learn some hard lessons about my fellow man....

This might sound a bit cynical, but it might also be one of the reasons that police work isn't exactly very good for you over time...
 
Sam1911 said:
Right, that all makes perfect sense, and I agree. In essence if you're selling an item like a firearm you give up all rights over it, including any privacy expectations -- consenting to any search the new owner wants to have done into the history of that gun.

However, the possible issue I theorized would be more plausible in the case of that random phone call from Joe Public to run the numbers on a gun you don't (and for all you know, HE doesn't) have. You really don't know the circumstances and he may be legitimately checking on an item for sale, or just Billy Joe trying to stir up trouble for his neighbor Earl by copying down a serial number on the gun Earl just picked up for cheap, and fishing for something to get Earl in trouble over. Weird as it may be, that search may not be consensual. Possibly still not an actionable 4th Amendment issue, but another reason why departments may not simply leap to offer such services to anyone who calls.
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Thanks to this thread for giving me a hypothetical for my exams. The typical 4th Amendment remedy would simply be that the search and its fruits could not be used to prosecute the "owner" in court--however, given how some courts have broadly interpreted the "good faith" exception in Leon, it is conceivable that the police show up at the "seller's" house with a warrant allowing them to search and seize the "stolen" firearm as one cannot knowingly possess stolen goods. My initial take would be that it would be fruit of the poisonous tree but depending on the facts of how the warrant was written up and the warrant issuing judge, it might fly for the seizure of the "stolen" firearm if not for prosecution.
 
This will probably clear up any misconception that anyone would have about an inquiry into an FBI database of stolen weapons.

https://fas.org/irp/agency/doj/fbi/is/ncic.htm

The way I read it is not everyone has access to the entire system as it can only be accessed on a need to know basis.

All records in NCIC are protected from unauthorized access through appropriate administrative, physical, and technical safeguards. These safeguards include restricting access to those with a need to know to perform their official duties, and using locks, alarm devices, passwords, and/or encrypting data communications.
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Even an FFL dealer running a NICS doesn't have access to the system. They just have access to someone who does have access to the system. If a dealer got a denial they wouldn't know why. The guy could be on the FBI 10 most wanted and they wouldn't know that. I bet the sheriff would know it though.

Because the state LE agencies give the FBI information about stolen weapons, among other things, I don't see why they wouldn't have access to the data from other agencies who input into the FBI database. It's a two way street.
 
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I have read before that officers who were using the system for someone else improperly were disciplined like running background checks on people.
 
kell490 said:
I have read before that officers who were using the system for someone else improperly were disciplined like running background checks on people.
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That is a different matter. If you are a LEO and you are running who your ex-wife is dating to see if they have a record, that is highly illegal. Because that is a personal reason without a probable cause. At least not probable cause a judge would believe. If a civilian believes a firearm he might be buying or selling in a private sale might be illegal or stolen, most local PDs would not have an issue spending 5 minutes running a serial number check.
 
Here is the OP again. We are drifting away from my intent, which was to find out where law enforcement will cooperate or is required to cooperate if someone wants to check to see if a gun is stolen. In a subsequent post I quoted information saying the Oregon State Police will process a stolen gun check requested by anyone in Oregon. I found other relevant information from Oregon at this web address:
http://www.oregon.gov/osp/ID/Pages/Firearms-Denial-Information-and-Reports.aspx

Note the second paragraph, which says the Oregon State Police are required to check for stolen status for any gun being transferred. (Oregon requires a background check for private transfers.) It seems to me that if a background check is required, then a stolen gun check should also be required (in any state) in order to reduce the transfer (either deliberate or inadvertent) of stolen guns.
 
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We are also rather far afield of the stricter scrutiny items in the Legal forum generally require.
We have rather a lot of opinion and hearsay, and rather a dearth of quoted Code.

I found (rather after the fashion of a bling pig and an acorn) 28 USC 534 which directs AGUS to have FBI to create and maintain the database. Which, to me, suggests that the true answer is buried in CFR, for which I have only poor search skills. Perhaps it's in 22 CFR 40.5; perhaps not--that seems to be State Department records (but, I've only read about 40 minutes' worth).
 
Okay, so I just noticed this thread.

I've been posting in THIS thread:
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/private-party-sale-opinion.827550/
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/private-party-sale-opinion.827550/
I'm not gonna argue further against those who say their state (or their local agency or their employer) allows them to receive or run checks on the gun file of NCIC to ascertain whether or not the gun in question was stolen ... But apparently, some folks either work for, or live in areas with, agencies that have a much looser interpretation of the CJI policies ... there are many, many agencies that require a valid reason to request an NCIC inquiry -- and facilitating someone's private-sale transfer of a firearm is not one. There's a reason the NICS was developed. NCIC and the various state-level systems exist to provide immediate response to law enforcement agencies making requests for information required for immediate investigations and actions, not for commercial purposes. The user agreement I signed way back when was pretty specific about this.

That said, I have no problem with an agency that would run a check on a firearm serial number for a private citizen -- but only if that citizen personally brought the firearm in. I can see a host of problems resulting from folks who just provide a serial to get a result -- particularly if the agency is performing this service for free.
 
Sam1911 wrote:
Many people have discovered that they possess a firearm that was once stolen.
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A good reason to buy new guns. May cost more initially, but fewer unpleasant surprises down the road.
 
I mostly buy new anymore, but most used guns in my area are with in $50 of new and often asking more than new , with the new pricing dropping like a rock no reason to buy over price used IMHO
 
This is going to come across far more "snarky" than I intend it to, but it's meant to be a legitimate question. Please bear with my preamble.

Until recently, I have known the provenance of every firearm I own. I purchased it new or bought it from the original owner. In a couple cases I inherited them. But that is no longer the case.

The fellow I bought a particular rifle from is a decent guy, says he was the original owner. I have no reason to doubt him. But the possibility of buying "stranger" guns is more real now than it was when most of the people I knew were buying, trading, selling on a regular basis. So the topic is of more interest to me now than before.

Cap'n Mac noted in post # 36 that there is much opinion and not much quoted code in this thread. On the other hand, we are told time and time again that written code, despite words on paper, don't mean anything until a judge and two opposing lawyers determine what they really mean. So until someone winds up in court over it, doesn't it simply boil down to whether your local police department will do it or not?
 
CapnMac said:
....I found (rather after the fashion of a bling pig and an acorn) 28 USC 534 which directs AGUS to have FBI to create and maintain the database. Which, to me, suggests that the true answer is buried in CFR, for which I have only poor search skills. Perhaps it's in 22 CFR 40.5; perhaps not--that seems to be State Department records (but, I've only read about 40 minutes' worth).
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No, it won't be in Title 22 of the CFR. Those are State Department regulations, and Section 40.5 relates to the use of NCIC by consular staff in connection with processing visa applications.

The applicable regulations appear to be set out in Part 20 of Chapter 1 of Title 28 of the CFR.A quick glance at the applicable regulations suggests that access to the information maintained in the NCIC is indeed limited and restricted.

But here's the deal. Whether a law enforcement agency may legally access NCIC at the request of a citizen to see if a particular gun has been reported stolen is not for us to decide. We don't have skin in the game. This is basically a question for each local agency, because it's their liability if they overstep their bounds. And in some cases, apparently, the State adopted legislation affecting the scope of a local agency's discretion.

So we're spinning our wheels here. Nothing we decide will affect or change an agency's policy. There may be some agencies who have policies which are more permissive than permitted by the regulations. Some agencies may have adopted policies which are more restrictive than required. In any case it will be up to the agency to decide both if they will do it and how they will do it.

I leave this thread open for a bit longer, but I doubt we'll see anything useful.
 
Of course, the thread title simply asks people to relate where they know the local department WILL or won't. Not really asking us to work to change it.
 
Sam1911 said:
Of course, the thread title simply asks people to relate where they know the local department WILL or won't. Not really asking us to work to change it.
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True, Sam. And each agency with access to NCIC has made a policy, decided not to have a policy, or not thought about the question. And the only way to know for sure what any particular agency’s policy is would be to ask the agency.
 
Our department (in Texas) generally will not run anything through NCIC unless there is a "legitimate Law Enforcement Investigative purpose". Some people are more liberal in determining what that might be but we are generally pretty strict about what "legitimate Law Enforcement Investigative purposes" are, so we will not by policy run them.
 
coloradokevin said:
NCIC records can only be accessed for legitimate criminal justice purposes. I'd argue that checking the serial number on a firearm that a citizen is concerned about would fall under the acceptable uses of this system. However, I'll only run such a clearance on a person (who wants to know if they have warrants) or a firearm (if someone wants it checked) if the person and/or firearm are standing in front of me at the time that I make the query. If someone calls the station to ask either of those questions, I just ask them to come on in and we'll check it out. But, if the firearm is stolen it is staying with us (for obvious reasons).
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I concur with this. If there is a hit on the serial number the agency who entered the serial number will want some follow up. "I just ran it because someone called in the serial number" is probably not going to be an acceptable answer, at least where I work. "I have recovered your stolen property, how would you like to get it back" works a lot better.
 
lemaymiami said:
One other item to remember.... Guns manufactured before 1968 didn't have to have a serial number at all (some did, some didn't) and I once ran into a computer hit on a Sears .22 cal rifle (and the hit was for more than 15 different entries spanning a 30 year period...). After a bit of research here's what we found... that basic bolt action rifle never had a serial number - but did prominently display a model number that more than one owner believed was the serial number and reported it as such to whatever agency took the stolen report - and that's just how a bunch of them had been entered into the system... At that time I had our property room and went round and round before finally figuring out just why our entry wasn't valid either...
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The tag on a Glock box has both a serial number and a UPC code of letters and numbers. We have people all the time who report their stolen gun and give the UPC code as the serial number. When you enter the UPC code (which is the same for say, all Glock 19s with factory night nights) into the system you usually get about 15 hits, as that many agencies have entered the stolen gun by the UPC number instead of serial number.
 
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