Trust soon: First stamp decision.

Decoy80 said:

Hi, I'm fairly computer illiterate with only a high school formal education and a "newbie" as far as dealing with the N.F.A. and it's many hoops one must leap thru, all without making a mistake that could strip a person of their 2 A rights.
Here are my
plans.

Click to expand...

Welcome to the club. It's not as confusing as it seems at first. The only mistake you could make is taking possession of or making an NFA firearm without an approved Form 1/4. Well, and not having an approved 5320.20 for interstate travel on SBR's (and such). Don't do that and you are golden.

Decoy80 said:

First stamp: a 30 caliber suppressor or maybe a multi caliber supressor, which would be best. Would it be an advantage to build it or one to buy one, what would leave one the most options?

Click to expand...

I figure that the average person would be best served with three cans... a .30 cal rifle can of some sort, a .45 cal pistol can, and a rimfire can. Going bigger on the rifle can works if you have something that needs it, but you limit the available options. If you must ONLY have one can, then something like the SilencerCo hybrid is a good choice, but you'll be accepting a heavy can on a pistol, less sound reduction on your rifle, and not being able to disassemble to clean with your rimfires.

Decoy80 said:

Second stamp: Make a S.B.R. by putting a rifle stock on my Henry Mares Leg. Does "Once a rifle always a rifle" apply or can you simply put the original hand stock or pistol grip back on and it return to handgun status?
If so that would allow travel without extra trouble configured in it's original form. Thanks and if my terrible research skills are what needs help please be paitent, kindly point me in the right direction as I would not be offended. I only seek wisdom and wish to abide by the law, not lose my rights.Thanks

Click to expand...

That's a great question that there is no official answer to (I am not a lawyer, I don't even play one on TV, and I didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn last night either!). The ATF says that an SBR isn't an SBR unless it is currently in SBR configuration. For an AR... slap a 16" upper on and cross state lines all you want. Where the confusion lies is the fact that SBR's are "firearms made from rifles". When you file a Form 1, it is an application to "make" a firearm. You are (legally-speaking) making a new Short Barreled Rifle. There is no case-law or official ATF opinions on whether configuring that firearm as a pistol again constitutes a firearm made from a pistol (what it was originally) or a firearm made from a rifle (what it legally is after being made into an SBR). When you put a long upper on an AR pistol, then put a stock on it... you haven't legally made a new firearm, and that is covered by case law thanks to Thompson Center (just be sure to not have a combination of parts sitting around that has no possible lawful configuration).

Ultimately, if you plan on crossing to the next state over often, file a 5320.20 for a year at a time. I've got one to go from VA to NM from 31 Aug 17 to 30 Aug 18. Took three weeks from sending it in to receiving it back approved. Easy peasy.

I think PD covered it very well. I would suggest a .45 can which can also be converted to 9mm via changing the pistons out, some will also work on 300BLK if kept subsonic.

His suggestion of a 30, 45, and rimfire is a great one. Bit $$ but once done you're covered unless you want to go big with a rifle, in which case go larger than the 30 in the first place. There are trade offs to many things with suppressors though so do the research to see which path is best for you.

I'll defer entirely on the SBR question.

The suggestion of a .30 cal rifle can, a .45 cal pistol can, and a rimfire can is about the best way to go if you're looking for a minimal number of suppressors to cover the most guns.

Personally I would go with a pistol can or .22 rimfire can first as those will give you the best suppression. Rifles generally don't suppress as easily or as well as pistols, mainly due to the fact that subsonic pistol ammo is relatively easy to find, but unless you're shooting something like .300 Blk, it's more difficult to find subsonic rifle ammo.

9mm suppressors are supposed to be slightly quieter than a .45 suppressor, but I'm not sure if it really makes much difference to the shooter. I think if you have multiple pistol calibers to suppress, the flexibility of one .45 cal can working on all of your guns surpasses the slight sound advantage of a dedicated 9mm can.

The rules about NFA weapons aren't too difficult as long as you're not trying to play in the grey areas. Generally make sure that you have the F1/4 before you take possession or build, file the 5320.20 before taking a NFA weapon across state lines (not applicable to suppressors), and don't leave a NFA weapon with someone not on your trust. If you do that, you shouldn't have any trouble.

For a first suppressor I would recommend buying rather than building. This will generally assure that you're getting a good quality can and the process of buying/transferring from a FFL/SOT will help you get used to the process and limit your chances of messing up somewhere.

Don't worry, the paperwork is pretty easy. The hardest part is the wait

Personally I would go with a pistol can or .22 rimfire can first as those will give you the best suppression.

Just to show how reasonable people can think differently, the last cans I'd give up would be the rifle cans. Rimfire is fun, but rimfires are pretty quiet anyway. Pistols aren't as loud as rifles anyway[1], and pistol cans are a bit unwieldy.

But, it all depends. If your #1 priority is quiet pest control, then that rimfire can looks pretty good. If you don't shoot rifles much at all, then a rifle can doesn't look good at all. I like my rifle cans because I frequently have a range to myself and only having to wear earplugs is sweet.

[1]Well, maybe not hot .357 or whatever, but those don't suppress well anyway, with the cylinder gap and all.

1) SilencerCo Hybrid. You can put it on just about anything, from 17 Rimfire to .45-70 government, it's full auto rated, and it can take .300 Win Mag and .338 Lapua pressures. They're a bit heavy on handguns, but functional, and will do until you can afford a more dedicated (read: lighter weight) pistol can. I wouldn't really recommend them for use on a .22 LR, though, as they're fully welded, and it's a nasty, dirty round. It'd be OK on a limited basis, and a lot of the crap will clear out when you run full power rifle rounds through it, but you should really have a dedicated, serviceable rimfire suppressor for .22 LR.

Eventually you'll end up with other cans, but you'll never regret the Hybrid, especially since there are few others that can be put on big bore rifles like the .45-70 or .458 Socom (It could probably be used on a .50 AE or Beowulf, too, since the through hole is .520", although it's billed as a .46 cal., and bore alignment would have to be about perfect). It can be configured as direct thread, QC brake mounted, tri-lug mount, or with pistons for handguns. It also uses the same pistons as all other SiCo cans, so pistons you bought for it would work in an Octane or Osprey, as well as the Rugged Suppressors Obsidian .45 and possibly others.

The thing truly is universal, about the only cartridges it can't handle being the .408 CheyTac, .416 Barrett or other big bores that burn considerably more powder than the Lapua.

I ran with only a Hybrid and TBAC .22 takedown until I could afford a couple more, now have an Osprey 45 and an AAC 7.62-SDN-6. The SDN-6 actually doesn't do any better on a .308 than the hybrid, but it's a tank and only cost me $560, so I don't mind beating the snot out of it on our post sample full autos.

The TBAC Ultra 9 would be the cream of the crop .30 suppressor, very light and stupid quiet. But very expensive and not nearly as flexible as the Hybrid

2) It's well established that SBRs are only NFA when in SBR configuration. Since the thing started life as a pistol, and there is no problem with converting pistols back and forth into long guns, I can't imagine there'd be any issue with returning it to that configuration, especially for interstate travel without a form 5320.20.

Do note, too, that things have changed since last year.
You really only need a Trust if you are intending to allow multiple parties to have access to NFA item(s).
There's still significant disagreement on how efficient it will be, going ahead, to add items to an existing Trust.
Filing individually has become som much "simpler" (something else that's still in a wait-and-see mode, as the backlog og Forms gets worked through).

I have seen it asserted that the 'best' way to do a Trust right now is to go ahead an buy everything the Trust needs at one time, so you only have to do the fingerprints and all the one time. I have a number of reasons to dismiss this assertion.

This is something that has a bunch of right answers.

CapnMac said:

Do note, too, that things have changed since last year.
You really only need a Trust if you are intending to allow multiple parties to have access to NFA item(s).

Click to expand...

There's also the issue of succession; transfer of NFA items to beneficiaries is much simpler with a trust, should something happen to you. Trustees can take possession immediately, and beneficiaries are already entitled to the item(s), just have to go through 41F to take possession.

There's really no reason not to do it. Some misunderstanding exists about 41F compliance; no matter how many trustees are on the trust, only those who wish to possess a given NFA item have to go though 41F and BGC for it. If it's just you, then the process is basically identical to individual form 1/4. Others can go through it later, too, and the list amended if it was simply a matter of convenience. So, no, you don't have to submit pics and prints of everyone on the trust with each new item, which would be a disaster.

Suppress what you will shoot the most, or, to put it this way, you will start mostly shooting what you have suppressed. Also, suppressors drop the noise by about 30 decibels, so a 223 will sound like a 22 unsuppressed, but still need ear protection. 22s don t need ears to be worn, but if you are at a gun range with a bunch of ARs constant of being fired you need to keep your ears on anyway so what's the point.

So my recommendation: quiet range, get a 22, noisy range, get a 30 rifle can.

For a pistol can I'd look at the rugged obsidian, Griffin revolution, or silencerco octane.
For a rimfire can I'd look at the dead air mask, Ruger silent sr, silencerco spectre. Something with stainless click together baffles, no monocore, easy to take apart.
I have no opinions on rifle cans.

greyling22 said:

Also, suppressors drop the noise by about 30 decibels, so a 223 will sound like a 22 unsuppressed, but still need ear protection.

Click to expand...

It's really up to the individual, but with longer barrels, I don't find full power rifle rounds bothersome to naked ears on an outdoor range. We were out this afternoon, and I ran my Hybrid on an 18" .308 and 26" .220 Swift with no ears, no problem. The 10.5" 5.56 AR, however, is still offensive.

greyling22 said:

For a pistol can I'd look at the rugged obsidian, Griffin revolution, or silencerco octane.

Click to expand...

Solid recommendations, good cans. That said, I prefer the Osprey. About the same dB wise, a little less pleasant tone due to the shape, but it sure is nice to be able to use standard sights! And they're extremely light weight

greyling22 said:

For a rimfire can I'd look at the dead air mask, Ruger silent sr, silencerco spectre. Something with stainless click together baffles, no monocore, easy to take apart.

Click to expand...

Also all good cans, but I think right now the Thunderbeast Takedown 22 is the best choice. It's the lightest of the bunch that are rated for 5.7x28, and in our comparisons, we felt it's also the quietest. They're all about the same price, so that's a non-issue.

Of course, if the OP isn't interested in suppressing 5.7x28, .22 Hornet, etc, he can get a cheaper, lighter aluminum can for just rimfire, such as the Gemtech GM22, which is less than half the weight of the above suppressors.

I didn't know the tabc came apart now. That would make it a viable alternative.

The osprey is fine, but I don't like the asymmetry of it. Looks funny on a carbine.

greyling22 said:

The osprey is fine, but I don't like the asymmetry of it. Looks funny on a carbine.

Click to expand...

I agree with that. It looks fine on a Kriss Vector SBR, or anything else that makes that profile blend, but yeah, kinda wonky out there on the end of several inches of protruding barrel. Conversely, I think it looks better than conventional round cans on a pistol, and the functionality of the eccentric design is undeniable. It's my favorite pistol can. I run my Hybrid on PCCs, where the extra weight is less noticeable anyway.

Decoy80 said:

I had not checked this in the last few days so I thought to check.
I have a little more wisdom too. Thanks for all the ideas.
I should be able to tell everyone I have the extra money to finance my quest but I ordered another gun over the weekend and it is on the way to my FFL at present.
My Attorney may have to barter with me if the project gets ever gets started.
If he keeps studying until Thanksgiving we should be ok. I'll pay him and do without something else if that time comes sooner I'd really like to be able to at least get a check in the mail with a form before the New Year.

Click to expand...

You've already made this 1000x more difficult and costly than it need be. You can download an NFA trust for less than $60 but now there's little advantage of a trust over an individual application, trust only let folks in unfriendly jurisdictions bypass any dealings with their local Sheriff, picture/fingerprints, etc..,
But I can tell you already...you're making this 1000x more complex than it really is.

VinnAY said:

You've already made this 1000x more difficult and costly than it need be. You can download an NFA trust for less than $60 but now there's little advantage of a trust over an individual application, trust only let folks in unfriendly jurisdictions bypass any dealings with their local Sheriff, picture/fingerprints, etc..,
But I can tell you already...you're making this 1000x more complex than it really is.

Click to expand...

First, cheap online trust templates are a joke, barely passable for NFA purposes, let alone qualifying as a legitimate trust that will stand up legally if there is any challenge to the legitimacy of the trustees or beneficiaries rights to trust property.

Secondly, bypassing CLEO signoff was a benefit, but for most of us, that isn't the reason. Having a trust makes succession/bequeathment of NFA items far easier, especially when there are beneficiaries who are not of age yet. It also allows multiple people to possess and use the items; if one of the other trustees on mine wants to borrow my cans or SBR for any reason, he or she can do so at any time, and I needn't be present.

Lastly, the OP's situation is unique to him, and he's evaluating the logistics. The process may be simpler for you or I for any number of reasons, but that doesn't mean that he's overcomplicating anything.

First, cheap online trust templates are a joke, barely passable for NFA purposes ...
if one of the other trustees on mine wants to borrow my cans or SBR for any reason, he or she can do so at any time, and I needn't be present.

Letting my wife have access was important to me. On the first point, has anyone done one of the $25 Silencershop trusts? Do they allow adding beneficiaries like wives, etc?

I'd kinda think that Silencershop paid for enough legal talent that their trust ought to work as far as it goes.