First foray into F-class

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DLrocket89

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Hi everyone,

Hoping to try getting into F-class next year. My question - how good do I have to be to not make a complete moron of myself? My matches will likely be 600 yard matches...the longest I'll have the chance to shoot before the match is 400 yards. Right now, at about 350 yards I'm hitting a 4" steel plate 9 out of 10 times.

The rifle is a Savage Trophy Hunter XP in 6.5x284 Norma... 24" barrel, dialed in with 143 gn ELD-X's (using it for hunting too), running an Athlon Argos 8-34x scope. Hoping to rebarrel it before shooting next year, same caliber, more like 30" for higher velocities.

My friend just picked up a 260 rem Savage and hopefully will be joining me, he's got the same concerns.

He just picked up some 300-yard F-class targets. If we were to shoot a few strings, what are we looking for on score? Do we need to be averaging an 8? a 9? I have no "concerns" about winning, just don't want people looking at me and shaking their heads is all.

Thanks everyone!

Dustin
 
Hi Dustin. Glad to read you'll be getting into F-Class. I do not know how to answer your questions but I would like to share some views.

I did not know the rifle model you mention and I googled for it as you mentioned that you use it to hunt too. The typical F-Class rifle is usually heavier than those used for hunting, mainly due to their bull barrel. They are intended for a different use. The usual barrel of a hunting rifle will not keep its precision after several shots (due to the heath that will somewhat bend the barrel) while a bull barrel will hopefully keep it after several entries (60-70 shots).
Besides this, I have seen competitions assimilated to F-Class for hunting rifles so perhaps you were referring to those?

About the scope, will the range have TV cameras on the targets? Seeing a 6,5 mm hole at 600 yards seems to me asking too much to a 32X scope, but I have no experience at these distances. The only 'medium distance' range I can go is a 200 m one. I use a 10-50x with .308Win holes. I once met a shooter who used a 9x scope, but he had a terrestrial scope (60X) next to the rifle so he could check how the group was building.

Finally, we should consider the third party here: the wind. At distances say until 300 m (my case) it is not a variable that should worry you much in a 'normal' day. It is all shooting technique and I see you mastered it already. At 600 y the wind makes the difference. It is a horse of a different color, and the best shooters are those able to read the wind. I would like to learn it but I do not have a feasible range for it.

I hope this helps. Enjoy!:)
 
I don't think I ever saw anybody in Moron Class.
Go and have a good time.

What will you be using for support? In F Open you can have pretty much a bench rest on the ground.

Matches I shot were 20 rounds for score, unlimited sighters, 22 minutes at midrange, 33 minutes at long range (over 600 yds.) Usually two or three matches in a day, five in a weekend.

The F targets have about a 1 moa ten ring. If you score 91.5%, 183/200, you are into Sharpshooter, which is about as good as I got, never did amass the three Expert scores required to reclassify. But I was shooting F TR with the limits of .223 and .308 with only a bipod up front and sandbag rear rest.
 
You can spend many thousands of dollars on a good rifle but you don't have to. I also like Savage rifles but I feel you need a different Savage rifle for competition. Savage has an F Class rifle chambered in the same cartridge you are now shooting and for a very reasonable price for what you are getting, IMO.
http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/12FCLASS

I feel you will do much better with a rifle built for the competition you choose to shoot.

As for making a fool if yourself, shooters don't think that way. Most competitors I know respect new shooters just for coming out and trying to play the game. They welcome new shooters because it keeps the game they love alive and fresh. There is no shame in trying, just go do it and you will find out how much fun you will have.
 
Thanks for the replies everyone!

To answer some various comments, questions -

1) Not sure if they have a TV camera, but I was planning on picking up a good spotting scope, so not worried.
2) I'm going to rebarrel my rifle first...I'll get a proper bull barrel-type setup. The sporter barrel on the gun right now is good for about 10 shots in a minute before it opens up to about 6 MOA.
3) Also bought a Boyd's stock I'm going to glass bed in when I rebarrel it. This will also include switching to actual metal bottom metal, AICS mags, etc etc.
4) Right now the plan was bipod on the front (it's what i'm used to) and a sandbag in the back, but I'll definitely be looking into a machine rest or whatever you'd call it.

Regarding the work on the gun - I suppose in the end it is easier to buy Savage's F-class, but I want to learn the process of rebarreling, changing to bottom metal, glass bedding the stock, modifying the stock as need be.... I'm a very DIY-based person, so the road of altering my current rifle is more appealing than just buying a new one.

Thanks for the comments everyone about "just go do it", "no moron class", etc...makes me feel a lot better. I used to do USPSA and had the same experience there, so guess I shouldn't have worried.

Dustin
 
I never saw a spotting scope that would pick a bullet hole out of the black much farther than 200 yards.
There are two ways for the target shooter to know what he is doing.
The traditional method with target pits. Each shot of slow fire (or each string of rapid fire, but you won't be doing that in F Class) the pit operators (usually shooters from another relay) pull the target down and mark the last hit with a spotting disc big enough to show in a spotting scope or even the rifle scope. They also put up a marker which shows the value of the hit by its location on the edge of the target frame. The next previous shot is pasted and the target run back up. The scorer (another shooter from a different relay) enters the score on your scorecard. You will take your turn in the pit.

The modern method is to use electronic targets which register each hit and display the score and location on a monitor at the firing line. This is a wonderful system, when it is all working right. A friend at the LR championships last month had to reshoot a match because the digital devices weren't playing ball.

If you are practicing in the South 40, target cameras are no more expensive than a good spotting scope.
 
Keep them all in the 9 and 10 rings at 600 yards (inside a 12" circle) and no one will be laughing at a first time shooter. In a 60 shot match, that's usually a score close to 570/600.

Many first timers score in the 540s or 550s. 560+ tends to impress the regulars if you are a true newbie.
 
how good do I have to be to not make a complete moron of myself?

I think that is a misconception about competitive shooting, that you will be judged on how well you shoot. Everybody started out sometime, the same as you will be doing. I'd say that close to 100% of fellow competitors will try and help a new shooter succeed and have a good experience so that they will come back.

My advice would be to be polite, respectful, follow the range commands, and most importantly be safe. I guarantee you'll be welcomed back for the next match, no matter what your score is.

By the sounds of things you will have good equipment and will have practiced before the match. You will do just fine.
 
"...to not make a complete moron of myself..." Forget that altogether. Nobody will laugh at you. Nobody really cares how well you shoot as long as you're safe. You'll find most shooters, in any discipline, will bend over backwards to help a new shooter too.
"...30" for higher velocities..." 6" won't give noticeably higher velocities. You need to learn the ballistics of your 6.5x284 Norma and how to read the range flags and the mirage.
You should probably work up a load with a 140 or 147 grain ELD Match bullet instead of the ELD-X. A match bullet vs a hunting bullet can matter. Or a Sierra Matchking.
 
Thanks for the encouraging comments everyone!

Sunray - Plan right now is to work up a load with either 140 SMK or 139 Scenars.

And I have to ask since Sunray brought it up - from what I've run on the computer, going from 24" barrel to 30" barrel is good for 150-200 fps more...which is admittedly not a huge change. Which makes me ask, why do people run such long barrels on their guns? If a shorter/stiffer 24 or 26" barrel will work, why not?

EDIT - I'm still going to rebarrel because the flimsy barrel on the gun down can't handle heat so I'll go with a proper bull-barrel, just wondering why the long barrels normally.
 
My F-TR barrels are 28". Why? Because that is the longest Pac Nor and Krieger make without charging extra per inch.
I knew one guy who put a 32" on his Palma rifle but had trouble finding a long enough hard case. 30" is pretty well standard.

One thing you will need is sight dope.
Given muzzle velocity and bullet ballistic coefficient, you can calculate "come ups" from range to range. Practice at 400, figure the elevation to get to 600.
 
Jim,

Sounds good on barrel length, I'll probably end up with the same 28"...was planning on getting a pacnor, 1:8" twist with polygonal rifling.

I'm deer hunting this year from 200-400 yards, so I'll have a pretty solid dope chart for those ranges at least. I MIGHT be able to do some 600 yard shooting before the first competition, but we'll see. Right now I'm zeroed for 200 yards with a 20 moa base, so I have more than enough come up for 600.
 
"...to not make a complete moron of myself..." Forget that altogether. Nobody will laugh at you. Nobody really cares how well you shoot as long as you're safe. You'll find most shooters, in any discipline, will bend over backwards to help a new shooter too.

A couple of caveats: a new shooter will get some negative feedback if he cannot even put shots on the target (complete misses), which is close to a 6 ft by 6 ft square at 600 yards.

You also want to make sure your scope has enough elevation to adjust your sights for 600 yards. Most rifles need about 12 minutes of elevation from 200 yards to 600 yards. A work around if your scope won't get there is to hold on the top of the target frame rather than the center of the bullseye.
 
I have seen experienced shooters coaching new guys - including me - to get on paper by watching the "trace" of the bullet and making large corrections from that. I have also seen shooters without zero told to shoot at the berm and adjust from the splashes in the dirt.
You WILL get help.
 
A couple of caveats: a new shooter will get some negative feedback if he cannot even put shots on the target (complete misses), which is close to a 6 ft by 6 ft square at 600 yards.

You also want to make sure your scope has enough elevation to adjust your sights for 600 yards. Most rifles need about 12 minutes of elevation from 200 yards to 600 yards. A work around if your scope won't get there is to hold on the top of the target frame rather than the center of the bullseye.

That part I'm not worried about - I can reliably hit a 4" plate at 300 yards. Just installed a 20MOA base on a 30mm-tubed scope...I think I'll have enough come up. (-:
 
Enough come up is one thing.
How much come up is what you need to know. As I said, plug your velocity and BC into one of the external ballistics programs and get a number to put you on paper.
 
pacnor, 1:8" twist with polygonal rifling...

...normally I stay with the reloading forum and I'm by no means qualified for F class but had some input on rifling that might be helpful. I went with pac-nor polygonal as well, for a small range-only .223. Despite being advised that polygonal rifling is essentially no different than conventional lands and grooves, I found that the polygonal rifling sealed exceedingly well once it was broken in making it much less forgiving and more time-consuming to find a repeatably accurate load for, especially with softer bullets. I wouldn't trade mine for anything but it may not be the choice for getting up and running in a highly competitive environment such as F class - other members surely must know more about this. Best of luck to you.
 
Jim - I've zeroed at 200 and shot out to 350 using a ballistics calculator with good results, so I'm good with the concept. Just haven't tried it "live" with 600 yards.

spitballer - noted...good to hear some real feedback on something as specific as the same brand, same special style rifling. The other options under consideration were either a 3 land or 5 land 1:8, or they also make a 5 land 1:7 twist should I be able to find some good 150-160 grain bullets...
 
My Pac Nor is a 3 groove .308. Bought because an experienced shooter said the broader lands resisted erosion better.

Sierra has just announced a 150 gr 6.5 MK... but say it takes a 7.5 twist.
 
My Pac Nor is a 3 groove .308. Bought because an experienced shooter said the broader lands resisted erosion better.

Sierra has just announced a 150 gr 6.5 MK... but say it takes a 7.5 twist.

Yeah, that makes sense, and important with the barrel burner that is the 6.5x284. And saw that about the Sierra, if I got a pacnor I could get a 5 land 1:7... got a few months before placing that order anyways, so not a huge deal yet. I also just stumbled across Warner's flatline bullets...if the BC's are to believed, I could see running the 122gn out of a 1:8.
 
...real feedback on something as specific as the same brand...QUOTE]

obviously I'll refuse to discourage someone from using something I enjoy so much for myself and in fact, harder bullets may not be affected in the same way. But I thought a comment might be appropriate because I'd been advised in another forum that polygonal doesn't matter, and IMHO it does make a difference when it's broken in and smooth. When mine got broken in and smooth, it's character changed quite a bit and I couldn't count on drag from any lands to stabilize SD, whereas when the bore was new and rough (did NOT get super-duper finish) I could count on the tooling marks to create drag and stabilize SD despite slight variations of powder charge. Personally I've enjoyed working with this novel rifling immensely, but professionals who don't like surprises may in fact have a different opinion. Sorry to take up so much of your space, and again good luck to you whatever you decide.
 
Did some shooting this weekend at 300 yard f-class targets. I was having some gun issues (long story) so didn't really shoot for score, my friend (who I usually outshoot) scored a 92-2x (out of possible 100), so I think this is completely "doable" for the both of us. I have to get my rifle squared away yet, but I'm capable with the right gear. My friend is too...looks like this will be a thing next summer. (-:
 
Lol, k.

Long story is that I've been experimenting with different barrel cleaning regimes with my gun. Used to clean it to being completely bare, as in I was getting bits of copper out of the barrel because I was scrubbing the copper fouling out. Group size went up for a few dozen shots and then it settled back down again every time I took it out. I was also sent down the wrong trail by a chronograph that was giving erroneous readings that showed a 200 fps spike on the first shot after cleaning.

So, I wanted to see "how long can I go without cleaning the barrel completely?". I ran a bore snake once in about 300-400 shots. Most recent outting was this last weekend and group sizes were HUGE (instead of 3/4" at 100 yards, more like 3"-4" at 100 yards). So, the conclusion I reached is that I let the barrel go too long, so I'm going to scrub it bare again and start from scratch.

I've also come to realize that the scope I have on it is brand new and not a "proven" performer. So, this weekend I'm going to borrow my friend's 4-14x primary arms that he has on a QD mount, which is a proven performer, and try it out and see what happens to rule out my scope being junk. I'm guessing it's one of those two.

Dustin
 
Copper fouling is very destructive to accuracy. You should buy a good copper cleaner and get all the copper out if your barrel and if need be rework your ammo loads for accuracy in a copper free barrel. It's never a good idea to allow copper to build up in your barrel for the very reasons you stated, erratic accuracy.

If copper continues to be a problem try one of the newer powders that use a additive to prevent copper buildup like IMR4955.
 
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