44mag carbine loads haywire.

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Axis II

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I was able to shoot my 44mag handi rifle last night with 240gr xtp, starline brass, cci LPP mag primers, medium crimp and kept getting really odd things so wondering if its the gun or the reloads as I've never seen anything like this before.


3 rounds fired at 50yards to make sure i was on paper round #1 hits 1'' square left 1'' of bull, #2 hits left of #1 and #3 touches #1.


3 rounds fired at 100yards #1 hits 1'' left of bull, #2 hits 1''high and left of bull, #3 goes through same hole as #1.


3 rounds fired at 100yards #1 hits 2'' left of bull, #3-4 touch each other 3'' left of bull.


Now. At least my last 100yard group was somewhat consistent with #2-3 hitting each other and not 1&3 hitting each other like above. I cannot seem to get this gun to shoot consistent 3-5 shot groups and the way its acting has me baffled. When i shoot i split a diamond target with the crosshairs and aim at the same spot. I can shoot my 45-70 all day and get it to shoot inch and under groups but this thing wont do it without going all haywire so I'm sure its not recoil. could it be something I'm doing with the handloads, barrels crooked, etc? Seems to hold 2-3'' left of bull consistently but the wandering left and then back right i don't understand. I've even put this thing on a sled and it shoots all goofy. Last year i could get 3-5 shots either touching or really close to touching and load up some more and they are all over the place.

BTW I'm not "complaining" it really has me racking my brain. I put it away for a few minutes and shot the 45-70 and kept 3 shots in an inch square off sand bags, fired the 223rem and clover leafing them. I know 1''-2'' is still decent but ive got it to put 5 in about 3'' shoot n c and letting a youth use it in a week or two so want to make sure its on.
 
Ammo issues (inconsistent powder drops, changing crimps or COL) almost always string vertically when same bullets are used. Left/right and random issues point to the gun rather than the load. Check all the bases and rings, then check the lock up for any play. If those are all good and no loose foregrip, then I would be suspiciois of the scope itself.
 
I've had accuracy problems with my .44mag Marlin 1894. I haven't shot it much in the last couple of years because I haven't had time to figure out what's going on. Mine has a Burris FastFire III (red dot) mounted on it. I'm wondering if the sight can't hand the recoil or if it is some other problem. I haven't had time to take the FFIII off and put the irons or some other sight back on.

As for your problem. Did you check the scope mounts? Check the screws squeezing the rings around the scope and check the screws holding the mounts to the rifle. What type of scope is it? Good quality? Appropriate for .44 mag recoil? If the scope is likely good and it is mounted properly, then what about the ammo? Have you tried any factory ammo?

Also, it sounds like your accuracy is pretty good, but the center of your groups is moving left. On the other hand, it may be that your 3 shot groups are just not enough shots. Maybe shoot 10 - 15 shots at 100 yards with a few minutes in between each so there is no issue with barrel heating up.
 
I've had accuracy problems with my .44mag Marlin 1894. I haven't shot it much in the last couple of years because I haven't had time to figure out what's going on. Mine has a Burris FastFire III (red dot) mounted on it. I'm wondering if the sight can't hand the recoil or if it is some other problem. I haven't had time to take the FFIII off and put the irons or some other sight back on.

As for your problem. Did you check the scope mounts? Check the screws squeezing the rings around the scope and check the screws holding the mounts to the rifle. What type of scope is it? Good quality? Appropriate for .44 mag recoil? If the scope is likely good and it is mounted properly, then what about the ammo? Have you tried any factory ammo?

Also, it sounds like your accuracy is pretty good, but the center of your groups is moving left. On the other hand, it may be that your 3 shot groups are just not enough shots. Maybe shoot 10 - 15 shots at 100 yards with a few minutes in between each so there is no issue with barrel heating up.
scope is a Nikon shotgun scope 2-7-33, burris zee rings blue lock tite, rail has been lock tite. Haven't tired factory cause IMO its expensive compared to what I can make. Only thing I've found decent in price is Winchester I think SP.

I was literally sitting there and when the 2nd would go left id say what the heck and the 3rd would be soo tight to the first shot I would have to walk down range to make sure #3 actually hit the paper and stand there and scratch my head.
 
A .44mag is not .223, and comparing their accuracy is not fair to either. From your own account, your last grouping while 3in left, was only about an inch. Pretty good for a $250 carbine. How does the crown look? Did you let the barrel cool between shots? I'm going with the gun being the culprit as opposed to your loads. What powder and charge did you use with the XTPs?
 
A .44mag is not .223, and comparing their accuracy is not fair to either. From your own account, your last grouping while 3in left, was only about an inch. Pretty good for a $250 carbine. How does the crown look? Did you let the barrel cool between shots? I'm going with the gun being the culprit as opposed to your loads. What powder and charge did you use with the XTPs?
don't have my notes handy but upper/close to max imr 4227. want to say around 23gr but don't quote me on that one.

crown looks okay. I had to return one that had severe chatter marks and got the only one out of 4-5 that wasn't chewed up. minute between shots but let me ask you guys this and not trying to argue... if the barrel was hot why would the 3rd round group and not the second?
 
I have had the same problem with XTP’s in my 1894. Would have 3 rounds go where I wanted. 4 and 5 went haywire. Switched to Sierra 240gr JCH’s and the problem went away. But, ~1-2 inch groups from a 44 mag at 100 yards is nothing to complain about.
 
I agree with Big Bore that it might be the bullet. Sometimes a certain firearm will not shoot a certain bullet well. I have had this happen with a 270, a 30-06, and in my 500 S&W Handi Rifle. In the Savage 270 the Speer 100 grain Grand Slams are the ONLY accurate bullet I have found. On bags I can put a nickel over a ten shot group. Any other bullet will group at least 1 1/2 or more inches apart. It took me a couple years trying different bullets/loads to find that out though. Note that this is the exception to the rule as usually you have one or two bullets that a firearm will not like and all the others will be OK shooters in it.
 
Have you cleaned it out really good with a copper cleaner? I'm normally a fan of leaving the gun dirty but my handi rifle really starts throwing shots when it gets dirty. 2 moa opens to 6 moa. A 3 shot group isn't much of a statistical average, I would consider you last two groups together as one group. With most of my guns if I shoot a 10 round group at least a couple will touch by random chance.

Don't take my comments as poo pooing the handi rifle, I'm sitting in the deer stand with my 444 NEF right now. I wouldn't have taken it if I didn't trust it
 
Well just filled my first tag with a little 4 pt with the handi. 40 yard lung shot. He ran about 50 yards and crumpled. 3 more to go. Just had a 6 pt go by a minute ago. I better start hunting and stop typing
I’m doing the same thing right now (except I’m now hunting) Just filled a tag on a nice doe. I find scrolling through the forum keeps me still in my stand. And gives me a chance to learn a little.
 
Handi-Rifles are an animal unto themselves, as far as accurizing. My Handi, in .223 and 30-30 took a bit of "tweaking", both on the gun itself and with the ammo to get it to shoot reasonable groups. I spent some time reading posts on accuracy here http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/108-h-r-centerfire-rifles/339177-handi-44mag-odd-shooting.html but it seems you already found it.

I shot my rifle from a rest, resting on the trigger guard and without the forearm during the "workup" and that in itself showed me a lot. I aso found my Handis shot better with cast bullets running at least .002"-.003" over groove diameter (FWIW 44 Mag. rifle dimensions as per SAAMI are .002" larger than handgun barrel dimensions)...
 
You do not require mag primers for .44 Magnum. Magnum primers are about the powder used, only.
Measure the diameter of the group regardless of where the bullet hits. You're not looking for where each bullet hits or bullseyes. And remember that a Handi-Rifle is not a target rifle. A consistent 2 or 3 inch group at 100 is good enough for deer too.
 
Couldn't hurt to slug your bore.

As mdi pointed out, SAAMI standard groove diameter for .44 Remington Magnum is .429" in pistols but .431" for rifles.

SAAMI Pistol and Revolver Standards (10 MB PDF)

SAAMI Rifle Standards (16 MB PDF)

I'm not saying that's what your problem is, but I had fits trying to load cast in a friend's .44 Mag Marlin a few years back.
 
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I tried a red dot on a Contender 44 magnum years ago. I can't remember what brand,after a few maybe 25 rounds its dot became loose inside bouncing around.
I decided red dots and 44s couldn't work well together the recoil was too much for red dots at the time and sprung for a Nikon scope that could do the job of absorbing the recoil while retaining zero.
Could you be expecting a bit much from your 44 as those groups you speak of I would be satisfied with. I think at that range a deer hunt will turn out to be work for you within range of the cartridge at present and you will fill your freezer with no problem as it is now.
 
Around here the distances one shoot for a white tail are usually 25-50 YDS or less and through woods and brush. I like an accurate rifle but could do well with buckshot or a rifled slug. A .22 MAG shot at the head neck junction gets the most meat saved with a quick kill in populated areas FWIW. That is legal to use here. Heck I have even done it with a Ruger Blackhawk in 45 colt. Just be patient and sure of your target/POI.
 
Just based on your description of the symptoms, you could have said "single-shot rifle" and my first guess would've been "Ah, a Handi-Rifle."

It's the rifle, I'd wager $5 and be confident I won't even have to show the money. The 240gr XTP with a full-dose of W296/H110 was my go-to full-power load when I had .44 Magnums. Five or six different guns and the ONLY one that wouldn't shoot consistently with that combination was a...

Wait for it...


The anticipation is worth it...



A Handi-Rifle!

Honestly, if you get it shooting into 3-4" at 100-yards, that's about all it will do. Vertical stringing is either due to lock-up, inconsistent ignition (headspace or weak firing pin strike) or ammo. On a break-open single-shot I'm looking at #1 and #2 before I worry about the ammo, especially if you're an experienced loader and the ammo is fine in other guns.

BTW, good hunting to all! :thumbup:
 
I feel really stupid right now. I had no idea that SAAMI spec was different for .44 mag rifle. I better get some of the larger bullets for my Marlin.

Just curious, why is it different? There must be a good reason to do something so odd.
 
pics are a little crooked and not sure how to rotate them. As you can see I will shoot #1, #2 goes somewhere else and #3 hits #1. 100yard groups for the white and orange paper and 50yards for the orange and green target.
 

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I'm confused by the numbers on the targets. 0ne photo shows holes labeled 1, 2, and 2. The other has multiple holes labeled 4 and 5. In any case. It looks like the centers of those groups are in about the same place, so that's probably just the accuracy of the gun with that load. Shoot several shots, find the center, and then zero.
 
From your pictures, I have a hard time seeing what the problem is. Your patterns for a .44 mag carbine(and a cheap one at that) are petty dam good. Both are under 3'' @ 100 yards, which is probably about average for any brand of rifle and any type of ammo. I get about 2-2 1/2'' outta my Ruger 77/44 @ 100 yards and think it's awesome. If you think you need a more accurate round, get a .223 barrel for your Handi and be done with it.
 
I'm confused by the numbers on the targets. 0ne photo shows holes labeled 1, 2, and 2. The other has multiple holes labeled 4 and 5. In any case. It looks like the centers of those groups are in about the same place, so that's probably just the accuracy of the gun with that load. Shoot several shots, find the center, and then zero.
the orange and green target was my 2nd round of 3 shots at 50yards the first set of 3 was sight in so that is labeled #2. Middle target was my fault with the #4 next to the 5's. the 5's are that group so ignore the 4 next to them. :)
 
From your pictures, I have a hard time seeing what the problem is. Your patterns for a .44 mag carbine(and a cheap one at that) are petty dam good. Both are under 3'' @ 100 yards, which is probably about average for any brand of rifle and any type of ammo. I get about 2-2 1/2'' outta my Ruger 77/44 @ 100 yards and think it's awesome. If you think you need a more accurate round, get a .223 barrel for your Handi and be done with it.
I just didn't know what to expect from that gun or load as ive never owned anything in pistol caliber before. If you guys say those groups are good ill run with them. Its still mind boggling that it will send 2 threw same hole and one off to the side.
 
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