Where do you sit

jeepnik said:

Who's self appointed? We just like to sit where we do. Neither of us has ever done a thing. And, yes, the priests know there are armed folks in the congregation but they don't know who they are. Think of it as Don't ask Don't tell.

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Carrying a gun in Church is one thing. Setting yourself up as a self-appointed sheepdog over the flock is entirely different and let's be honest that's what you're doing.

If I'm ever involved in an active shooter incident at my church (assuming of course the shooting is Justified and I've acted within the church's security policy guidelines) the church's liability insurance covers me and so does their medical insurance.

If some "Lone Wolf Sheepdog" takes on an active shooter and misses or kills the active shooter the church is under no obligation to cover him under their insurance and should the shooter's surviving family decide to file a wrongful death lawsuit because "you weren't the police and it wasn't your place to execute him" you are on the hook for all your legal bills and in the astronomically unlikely event you're found liable you're also on the hook for the settlement.

Now I'm sorry if that sounds mercenary but that's the reality of the world we live in. I've told this story before but I have a friend who tried to stop a robbery in a Burger King in Miami. My friend killed the robber ( and he gets to live with that for the rest of his life) but not before the robber shot him several times. There was even a big long thread here about it when it happened. A bunch of people participating promised that they would donate money for his medical bills, not a one of them came through. And Burger King disavowed his actions entirely. He was on the hook for all his medical bills.

I know that you're going to say well you're 70 years old and you made it this far and by God you're going to do what you want to do. I'm going to say okay knock yourself out. It's your life. You make the decisions. You live with consequences.

entropy said:

Yes but seaxes just don't have the reach a handgun does....

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Very true.... but we're a bunch of modern day savages.
https://www.ssvi.us/products/glock-premium-package

Trunk Monkey said:

Carrying a gun in Church is one thing. Setting yourself up as a self-appointed sheepdog over the flock is entirely different and let's be honest that's what you're doing.

If I'm ever involved in an active shooter incident at my church (assuming of course the shooting is Justified and I've acted within the church's security policy guidelines) the church's liability insurance covers me and so does their medical insurance.

If some "Lone Wolf Sheepdog" takes on an active shooter and misses or kills the active shooter the church is under no obligation to cover him under their insurance and should the shooter's surviving family decide to file a wrongful death lawsuit because "you weren't the police and it wasn't your place to execute him" you are on the hook for all your legal bills and in the astronomically unlikely event you're found liable you're also on the hook for the settlement.

Now I'm sorry if that sounds mercenary but that's the reality of the world we live in. I've told this story before but I have a friend who tried to stop a robbery in a Burger King in Miami. My friend killed the robber ( and he gets to live with that for the rest of his life) but not before the robber shot him several times. There was even a big long thread here about it when it happened. A bunch of people participating promised that they would donate money for his medical bills, not a one of them came through. And Burger King disavowed his actions entirely. He was on the hook for all his medical bills.

I know that you're going to say well you're 70 years old and you made it this far and by God you're going to do what you want to do. I'm going to say okay knock yourself out. It's your life. You make the decisions. You live with consequences.

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Self defense is the right of every man -- don't assume those who are prepared are somehow "self-appointed."

If I am in Church, or in Wal Mart, or at a concert, and someone attempts to kill me or my family, I have a right and a duty to defend myself and my family -- and no one has a right to ascribe any other motive to me.

Trunk Monkey said:

Carrying a gun in Church is one thing. Setting yourself up as a self-appointed sheepdog over the flock is entirely different and let's be honest that's what you're doing.

If I'm ever involved in an active shooter incident at my church (assuming of course the shooting is Justified and I've acted within the church's security policy guidelines) the church's liability insurance covers me and so does their medical insurance.

If some "Lone Wolf Sheepdog" takes on an active shooter and misses or kills the active shooter the church is under no obligation to cover him under their insurance and should the shooter's surviving family decide to file a wrongful death lawsuit because "you weren't the police and it wasn't your place to execute him" you are on the hook for all your legal bills and in the astronomically unlikely event you're found liable you're also on the hook for the settlement.

Now I'm sorry if that sounds mercenary but that's the reality of the world we live in. I've told this story before but I have a friend who tried to stop a robbery in a Burger King in Miami. My friend killed the robber ( and he gets to live with that for the rest of his life) but not before the robber shot him several times. There was even a big long thread here about it when it happened. A bunch of people participating promised that they would donate money for his medical bills, not a one of them came through. And Burger King disavowed his actions entirely. He was on the hook for all his medical bills.

I know that you're going to say well you're 70 years old and you made it this far and by God you're going to do what you want to do. I'm going to say okay knock yourself out. It's your life. You make the decisions. You live with consequences.

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I'm not sure there's a right or wrong answer when you're in an active shooter situation, just choices, most if not all of them bad. If you're armed and have the ability to fight back and don't the people you could have saved but didn't can haunt you. If you do stay and fight, what are the consequences if you lose your life doing so? Do you have kids or others relying on you? If yes, what about your responsibility to them? What about family and friends who don't rely on you but will be devastated by your death? If you carry a gun, these are things you should think about in advance to the extent possible, with the understanding that no one can predict exactly what situation they may wind up in.

TomJ said:

I'm not sure there's a right or wrong answer when you're in an active shooter situation, just choices, most if not all of them bad. If you're armed and have the ability to fight back and don't the people you could have saved but didn't can haunt you. If you do stay and fight, what are the consequences if you lose your life doing so? Do you have kids or others relying on you? If yes, what about your responsibility to them? What about family and friends who don't rely on you but will be devastated by your death? If you carry a gun, these are things you should think about in advance to the extent possible, with the understanding that no one can predict exactly what situation they may wind up in.

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In this specific instance I think it would be better if the OP, his friend Jas and the pastor sat down and came up with some idea to actually formulate a church safety plan.

I may have misunderstood what I read but the understanding I got is that the OP and Jas have never even discussed what they would do if something happened. They've never trained together. They apparently don't even have a way to communicate with one another. These are all issues that (again in my opinion) that having an actual sit-down would resolve.

And throw this out there because we don't know since neither one of them is talk to the pastor we don't know if the pastor already has a designated security team in place that they're just going to get in the way of.

Trunk Monkey said:

In this specific instance I think it would be better if the OP, his friend Jas and the pastor sat down and came up with some idea to actually formulate a church safety plan.

I may have misunderstood what I read but the understanding I got is that the OP and Jas have never even discussed what they would do if something happened. They've never trained together. They apparently don't even have a way to communicate with one another. These are all issues that (again in my opinion) that having an actual sit-down would resolve.

And throw this out there because we don't know since neither one of them is talk to the pastor we don't know if the pastor already has a designated security team in place that they're just going to get in the way of.

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Understood. Not knowing the situation other than what they posted, I obviously can't answer that.

I'm not seeing where the OP or his fellow congregant have appointed themselves as anything other than churchgoers trying to choose the most advantageous seat should something happen. It's a reasonable thing to do.

I've never been in a church that has a "security team" and I wonder what their training consists of. It better be real good if they plan on doing any shooting in a crowded setting like a church.

shafter said:

I'm not seeing where the OP or his fellow congregant have appointed themselves as anything other than churchgoers trying to choose the most advantageous seat should something happen. It's a reasonable thing to do.

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Yep.

As I said earlier, I am standing up front, but if I was not I would be choosing a "seat with a view", just like I do whenever I go to a restaurant or other venue. I haven't appointed myself to be anything more than my own self-defender.

If what I said has no merit ignore it

On the matter of training.

My small group does train. Twice,a year pastor discusses it from the alter and allows questions,and comments.
Humorously one old lady stood up said she had a 38 and wanted to participate.

bikerdoc said:

On the matter of training.

My small group does train. Twice,a year pastor discusses it from the alter and allows questions,and comments.
Humorously one old lady stood up said she had a 38 and wanted to participate.

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The insurance company that covers the security team at my church requires that the team be trained and qualify with their handguns biannually. They also receive training on legal use of force and training on non lethal use of force (how to remove an unruly person from the sanctuary).

bikerdoc said:

On the matter of training.

My small group does train. Twice,a year pastor discusses it from the alter and allows questions,and comments.
Humorously one old lady stood up said she had a 38 and wanted to participate.

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Why is that humorous? An old lady has one very big advantage in such a situation, which is that the BG won't consider her a threat... until she shoots him.

I am on the security team at my church. I am not a self appointed sheep dog. Once a year the man that does the Men's Breakfast invites anyone who wants to come to his home on a Saturday. They do a mixed grill & let anyone who wants to shoot. I went to it last year & one of the elders after watching me shoot & discussing guns with me suggested I speak to the pastor. They were just putting the security team together. I did speak to the pastor & found myself volunteered.

As for where I sit my church has a row of seats across the back wall. I & my family sit on the back row to the right of the main entrance in back. The elder mentioned where I sit when he suggested I speak to the pastor. Ironically the reason we started sitting there was when we first began attending there my son was 2 & we were trying to position ourselves so we could tend to any issue he had without bothering anyone.

FWIW I did not carry in church until I found myself on the security team.

I'm speaking to the broader topic here but there's more to effective church security than just sitting in the sanctuary with a gun.
The security team members for any given service at my church are dedicated assets they are there to do security not attend church. We do a few different services so you can do security at one and attend another.
The security team is placed outside the sanctuary and outside in the parking lot looks for threats coming in. As well as watching cars in the parking lot.
Our security team wears a distinct uniform (black 5.11 shirt with a church logo an "security ministry" on it) so we know who's who and we have radio communication.

The church I was at the morning of the New Life Church shooting reacted to the shooting by having random parishioners carry guns to church. The problem with that was no one including the people who had been tasked to perform security even knew exactly who was on the "team" or even where they were at in the building. I was told that a couple of guys simply appointed themselves to stand in the halls during service and watch over "the flock". I can see massive potential for confusion and a friendly fire incident in this set up and I really think it's a bad idea.

When we attended that church we alway sat on the far side of the sanctuary right next to the Emergency Exit. Where we're at now we usually sit in a room an the second floor over looking the sanctuary. Mostly because there are tables to put our Bibles on and take notes but also because if any thing happens it will be in the Sanctuary and we'll be out of the middle of it.

Same spot actually since i was 11, im late 40’s now , back left corner

Trunk Monkey said:

The church I was at the morning of the New Life Church shooting reacted to the shooting by having random parishioners carry guns to church. The problem with that was no one including the people who had been tasked to perform security even knew exactly who was on the "team" or even where they were at in the building. I was told that a couple of guys simply appointed themselves to stand in the halls during service and watch over "the flock". I can see massive potential for confusion and a friendly fire incident in this set up and I really think it's a bad idea.

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There is imagination and there is reality. Has such confusion and friendly fire ever occurred in a church? If not, then we're trumping reality with imagination.

Consider the situation at Wal Mart -- there was no organized security there, just random armed citizens. They drew their weapons to defend themselves and families, but did NOT fire. There was no confusion -- the shooter realized he was up against an armed populace, and fled.

Back right, 3 rows up. I can see everything, can exit in seconds, and watch the collection plates.

Depends on the schedule, the number of us on the team that show up, and where we have 'holes' that need to be filled. I was moved from my scheduled spot yesterday because I was about 10 minutes late, so they swapped me and another guy. I'm stationed in a handful of different locations that are determined by the monthly schedule that the church issues, but like yesterday, it's fluid and we make changes according to the need. Part of the time, I'm moving about in the building, and the rest of the time I'm sitting where I'm scheduled or directed to sit. Even when I'm not scheduled to be on duty, there are almost always holes that I'll get recruited to fill. It's been a good while since we've attended and I was purely not on duty and was able to sit wherever, but in those instances, I let the wife pick her favorite spot, which is often back toward the east side, sorta by the sound booth.

Full disclosure, I head up the security team for my church. Since we're discussing training, I'll offer my own suggestions.
1) Talk to your local police department about presenting the A.L.I.C.E. program to your congregation. Everybody who wants to attend, not just the security team.
2) Secure your building. We have a single front entrance that people can come and go. All other doors are locked. They can be opened from the inside but not from outside. This takes place upon start of service.
3) Walk through your building as service starts. Lots of people milling around. Good time for troublemakers to enter. Same with exit times.
4) Fire alarms and smoke detectors. CO detector in the boiler room. Fire extinguishers. These should be mandated by your insurance company. If not, get them anyway and find new insurance.
5) First aid. You've got old people, young people, stairs, a kitchen, many of the same hazards as your home.
6) Communication. If your security team operates out of sight of one another, they need coms. Simple walkie-talkies will work.
7) A designated person to dial 911 or local emergency services if something happens. And a back-up if that guy is the one who needs attention.
8) If the thought of touching off a round in a crowded sanctuary doesn't give you the heebie-jeebies, you don't understand the potential situation. Using a firearm should be a last resort.
9) Anyone armed as part of your team should have impeccable trigger and muzzle discipline. Bubba-Joe might be a good guy, but his annual ND climbing his tree stand disqualifies him.
10) Guns are on our minds, this is a gun forum and there was a church shooting recently. But very little of keeping people safe is shooting bad guys. Do a realistic assessment of your congregation, location and potential threats.

When I used to attend church (a LONG time ago) my favorite spot was one of the back corner pews in the balcony.

I could see most of the main floor, was instantly aware of folks entering/exiting the balcony and could enter/exit quietly, myself.

In this seemingly more potentially dangerous world, that would still be my favorite spot.

Corporal Agarn wrote:
She sings and plays guitar so she appreciates the worship music.

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If she shows up with her guitar, we'll draft her into the praise team to help lead singing.

Corporal Agarn wrote:
I am just not necessarily big on going to Church.

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When my oldest decided he wanted to be baptized, he told me, "I believe in Jesus, I just don't believe in organized religion." To which I replied, "Neither do I". Still, as you say it is community of like-minded individuals from whom we draw strength and mutual support, so my view is to keep the organization to a minimum and the faith to the maximum.

jeepnik wrote:
Actually Jas and I figure we can cover the entrances and the sanctuary quite well from our locations. Running isn't an option for either of us.

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Yes, but it remains the only option for those of your fellow-congregants that aren't armed - particularly if you should be unsuccessful in engaging the bad guy.