Sistema1927
Member
Re your #17: "One of these things is not like the other." If you don't already know the logical fallacy that you just committed then it won't help for me to explain it to you.
If 38 states don't participate in NICS
- Thread starter warnerwh
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CapnMac
Member
Well, there are a number of misconceptions out there.
One: NICS is not a Background Check. Not even close.
Two: NICS is an integrated system. No, it's presently 9 partially interconnected systems (8 State and 1 Federal)
All NICS is a database of names. When the dealer calls in the name and identifying information, a search query is created which then determines if there is a match. If there is more than match, more identity information is requested (or queried).
This list is populated, as Dogtown Tom correctly notes above, with entries from a large number of sources (somewhere about 2500 Counties and 25,000 municipalities, departments, and agencies). Some of those sources are under no onus for timely submission of that data. Quite a few are under no onus for inaccurate data, or failing to send data. In addition, the 8 States which use their own Bureaus of Investigation may or may not be up to date in sending/receiving data throughout the larger system.
There was a bill in the last Congress, introduced in the House, which intended to address the issues the current NICS system has, largely by creating ways to hold administrators and bureaucrats to task in delivering data to the system as a whole. This was roundly shot down by D's, as the last thing the public employee unions want is accountability.
The Schumer/Feinstein poison pill does nothing to fix NICS--all it does is increase the number of people who could be included in the list, and largely without due process for either inclusion or defense against.
The whole fact that NICS "works" at all as presently set up is due to the fact that 95% of the people using the system are law abiding, and therefore not on the list.
One: NICS is not a Background Check. Not even close.
Two: NICS is an integrated system. No, it's presently 9 partially interconnected systems (8 State and 1 Federal)
All NICS is a database of names. When the dealer calls in the name and identifying information, a search query is created which then determines if there is a match. If there is more than match, more identity information is requested (or queried).
This list is populated, as Dogtown Tom correctly notes above, with entries from a large number of sources (somewhere about 2500 Counties and 25,000 municipalities, departments, and agencies). Some of those sources are under no onus for timely submission of that data. Quite a few are under no onus for inaccurate data, or failing to send data. In addition, the 8 States which use their own Bureaus of Investigation may or may not be up to date in sending/receiving data throughout the larger system.
There was a bill in the last Congress, introduced in the House, which intended to address the issues the current NICS system has, largely by creating ways to hold administrators and bureaucrats to task in delivering data to the system as a whole. This was roundly shot down by D's, as the last thing the public employee unions want is accountability.
The Schumer/Feinstein poison pill does nothing to fix NICS--all it does is increase the number of people who could be included in the list, and largely without due process for either inclusion or defense against.
The whole fact that NICS "works" at all as presently set up is due to the fact that 95% of the people using the system are law abiding, and therefore not on the list.
dogtown tom
Member
Well awesome.
Now go and read the rest.
Not a bit of the above says anything about any state being able to ignore the FBI database and use their own criminal database. Why you chose to quote that particular passage is odd to say the least.
When you posted this: "....and 13 states run the back ground checks in their own systems along with a NCIC check.
The reason is they know a national database for back ground checks is a myth. Basically those states are working to solve the back ground check problem with their own systems and waiting periods...."
If those states don't use the FBI NICS then to comply with the Brady law they could not......unless every state and US territory submitted criminal records to them.
No kidding?
Oh my gosh! Are you saying some minimum wage clerk in the Department of Bad Guy Records didn't follow the law?Never. Not in a kabillion years would that ever be possible!
I don't think ANYONE has ever claimed that every court, every jurisdiction, state, Federal district, US territory has forwarded all required records to the FBI in a timely manner. In fact that's been an FBI CJIS complaint for DECADES. Yet here you are only being aware of it because of the church shooting in Texas.
Where do you get the idea that those states are using any database other than the FBI NICS system?
You can't grasp the idea that state points of contact are points of contact for.......wait for it.......THE FBI NICS. Good grief.
Unbelievable.
It's FREE FOR DEALERS TO USE. Just like the IRS Help Line at tax time is a toll free call. No one claimed that tax dollars don't support it.
Uh, no.
I don't charge a stinking penny to dial the FBI NICS for a buyers background check. Wanna know why?...............It a toll free call. And I would call that free.
Now, in those states where the state government loves to stick their nose in everyone's bidness.......the STATE may (and likely does) bill the dealer for each background check call. That's not the dealer lining his pockets bub, that's a state government billing the dealer for the background check.
CoalTrain49
Member
Why would you find it odd? It's there for a purpose. If it had no purpose I doubt it would be there. Did you not know about it?
STATES THAT ISSUE PERMITS THAT QUALIFY THE HOLDER FOR AN EXEMPTION FROM A NICS CHECK
Pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 922(t)(3), 28 states issue permits or licenses that exempt the holder from the federal background check requirement at the point of sale.22
Alabama (concealed weapons permit issued on or after 8/1/13)
Alaska (concealed weapons permits marked NICS-Exempt)
Arizona (concealed weapons permits)
Arkansas (concealed weapons permits issued on or after 4/1/99)
California (“entertainment firearms permits” only)
Georgia (concealed weapons permits)
Hawaii (permits to acquire and licenses to carry)
Idaho (concealed weapons permits)
Iowa (permits to acquire a handgun and concealed weapons permits)
Kansas (concealed weapons permits issued on or after 7/1/10)
Kentucky (concealed weapons permits issued on or after 7/12/06)
Louisiana (concealed handgun permits issued on or after 3/9/15)
Michigan (licenses to purchase a pistol and concealed pistol licenses issued on or after 11/22/05)
Minnesota (permits to carry issued on or after 8/1/14 expiring on or after 8/1/19)
Mississippi (concealed weapons permits, but not security guard permits)
Montana (concealed weapons permits)
Nebraska (handgun purchase certificates and concealed handgun permits)
Nevada (concealed weapons permits issued on or after 7/1/11)
North Carolina (permits to purchase a handgun and concealed handgun permits)
North Dakota (concealed weapons permits issued on or after 12/1/99)
Ohio (concealed weapons permits issued on or after 3/23/15)
South Carolina (concealed weapons permits)
South Dakota (gold card and enhanced permits issued on or after 1/1/17)
Texas (concealed weapons permits)
Utah (concealed weapons permits)
Washington (concealed weapons permits issued on or after 7/22/11)
West Virginia (concealed handgun license issued on or after 6/4/14)
Wyoming (concealed weapons permits)
I just sited the appropriate US code that allows dealers to forgo NICS. I can't help it if you can't understand it. Lots of dealers do. My dealer always asks me for my carry permit to transfer a pistol. If it wasn't part of the process why did he ask me for it and enter the info into the program that was supplied to him by the state? There is no field on a 4473 for my carry permit info.
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CoalTrain49
Member
I guess we see things a bit differently. The fed is the one who has their nose in my business. Brady isn't a state law, it's a federal law. And you just admitted that states are running back ground checks (checking the current status of a CC permit and court records) but I wouldn't expect you to know that.
In WA the state BC is run in conjunction with a NICS. That's because of state law, not federal. I fill out a 4473.
And you're right about one thing. My dealer had so much business doing transfers he purchased the software from the state to make his life easier and cut down on the time it takes him to get an answer from the state. I think he said it costs him about $1000. He doesn't call a number anymore and verbally give them information on the phone. The state has us all by the short hairs here.
I'm picking up a pistol tomorrow. I'll see if he will tell me more about that system.
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Sistema1927
Member
Huh?
gc70
Member
Title 28 of the Code of Federal Regulations, Part 25 - The National Instant Criminal Background Check System
§ 25.4 Record source categories.
The federal government does offer grant money as an inducement for states to submit records.
CoalTrain49
Member
Check that. 4473 is required. NICS check isn't. My mistake.
dogtown tom
Member
Of course I know about the exemptions to the Brady Law. Maybe because I read the instructions on the 4473.
What I find odd is the irrelevance of the exemptions to the Brady Law..........that's not remotely connected with your claim that states are able to ignore the FBI database and use their own criminal database.
Rather than post a response, you obfuscate the discussion by doing a copy and paste of irrelevant information.
Sigh.
Well, being that no one in this thread has argued that dealers in some states may accept certain firearm permits...........what the heck do you think you are arguing?
Fully 50% of my transactions do not require a phone call to FBI NICS because the buyer/transferee hold a Texas CHL/LTC.
Once again you show your near total ignorance of anything related to firearms law, ATF regulations and even the Form 4473 itself.
It's Question 21 on page 2 of the Form 4473.
dogtown tom
Member
Yet the Feds don't register Title I firearms.
Yet the Feds don't know the make/model/caliber/serial# of the firearm.
But states that are a POC DO use their status as a NICS POC to compile firearm registration.
But states that are a POC DO know what make/model/caliber/serial# the buyer just received.
So again.............who has their nose in your business more?
Oh good grief.
AGAIN, every state uses the FBI NICS.........YOU are the one claiming that many do not. Do you not remember what you posted above?
Washington is a state point of contact for the FBI NICS........as I've pointed out repeatedly.
That you think a federal law is not involved shows your ignorance of the Brady Law.
No kidding.
The Form 4473 is a FEDERAL form.....not a State of Washington form.
Good grief.
You miscounted.
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CoalTrain49
Member
So I guess you are saying that when I pay a fee to an FFL for NICS check and the FFL calls the "toll free number" there is certain and for sure no digital registry. I'll buy that. And a check run by the POC state does include a digital registry. I'll also buy that. The problem I have with NICS is it doesn't really accomplish much of anything except keep me waiting for a proceed. Honestly, I don't care if the state has my serial numbers. They already have me on record as a permit holder, they know where I live, what kind of car I drive and probably what I ate for breakfast. Anything I transfer thru a dealer is going into the FFL log anyway. Regardless of POC or not, a trace of the AR that I purchased that shows up at a crime scene is traceable thru FFL records. Big deal. I have no criminal record so serial numbers don't have a huge importance to me.
Well yes when they issue a carry permit. But a NICS isn't required in some states to transfer if you have a carry permit. As I've pointed out in some states a carry permit is a pass on a NICS. You don't seem to want to accept that fact and that's fine with me.
I never said a federal law wasn't involved. Actually I'm basing my assertions on federal law and what the ATF has published. You keep twisting what I did say to support a NICS back ground check. This is from the ATF website. About half the states have this exemption.
https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/permanent-brady-permit-chart
I know what goes on in WA. I've purchased several firearms here and a good friend of mine is a dealer. Stop trying to tell me what the process is here. You've never transferred a firearm here because you don't have a business license to do that.
Everyone gets to fill out a 4473 so in that respect Brady affects everyone who purchases a firearm from a dealer. No argument there.
This from the FBI.
So now I ask you. What exactly is the point of a NICS check? To employee a bunch of federal drones with pensions and union contracts or to get up to date, complete information about a restricted person? The FBI wants out of this business, it's pretty clear to me. They probably have bigger fish to fry.
dogtown tom
Member
I don't expect you to "buy it".........it has been mentioned ad nauseum in this forum that an FBI NICS check does not ask anything more than "Type of firearm". Meaning Handgun, long gun or other. You might not believe me, but any of the other dealers on this forum can verify what I've said is true.
That's YOUR experience. You have no earthly idea who gets denied by FBI NICS because YOUR experience is limited to YOURSELF. I have had customers get denied by NICS that told me after the status update of the reason for their denial. In those instances, NICS worked exactly as intended, keeping the dealer from transferring a firearm to a prohibited person.
I do.
So do many others. It is the first step to being California or New York City.
Bizarre........if your AR shows up at a crime scene......do you think you might have just earned a criminal record?
Sir, no one in this thread has denied that some states have a qualifying permit that serves as an exemption to NICS.
Where did I not "accept that fact"?
I'll tell you........in your dreams. As I wrote above: "Fully 50% of my transactions do not require a phone call to FBI NICS because the buyer/transferee hold a Texas CHL/LTC."
What part of that sentence do you not understand?
The reality is that you claimed "....and 13 states run the back ground checks in their own systems along with a NCIC check.
The reason is they know a national database for back ground checks is a myth. Basically those states are working to solve the back ground check problem with their own systems and waiting periods...."
That's patently false. Once I pointed out the sheer nonsense of that statement you started in on the carry permit exemption. Bizarre.
I didn't twist anything. When you post "....and 13 states run the back ground checks in their own systems along with a NCIC check.
The reason is they know a national database for back ground checks is a myth. Basically those states are working to solve the back ground check problem with their own systems and waiting periods...."
Are you now disagreeing with that?
BTW, for a carry permit to be eligible as ab exemption to NIC...............who do you think makes that determination? It sure as heck isn't your state.
I don't think you do.
Sorry, bub. But the process for a dealer in any state or US possession is exactly the same:
Buyer completes, signs and dates the Form 4473.
Dealer records the required information in Section B and D and complies with the Brady law (NICS check or exemption)
If buyer/transferee doesn't take possession on the same day as he signed the 4473, then he signs/dates Section C when he does take possession.
Dealer signs/dates the form when the firearm is transferred to the buyer/transferee.
Whether a state/county/city requires a waiting period, additional documentation or a blood and stool sample is irrelevant..........the dealer must still perform the above process in regards to Federal law/ATF regulations.
The NICS was created because of the waiting periods mandated by the Brady Law. Five minutes on Google would have told you that.
If I had to choose between a few federal drones or a waiting period I'll take the federal drones every time.
Point to ONE FBI source that indicates they want out of the NICS.
The CJIS is a major component of the FBI, no way they want to bail on that.
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CoalTrain49
Member
In that case it did. Sounds like your customer wasn't totally honest when they filled out the 4473. Happens all the time I guess. Some prohibited folks get denied and some don't. Some glaring examples of that recently.
Nope, like I said, no criminal record here to hide. Guns get stolen all the time. I have no control over who might break into my house while I'm on the road. Actually, I find some humor in your response considering the number of firearms that pass thru your hands being an FFL. You are much more likely to be targeted by a thief than I am. You said yourself that you were dealing with prohibited folks.
You have a problem with the state keeping those records? I see a bit of irony here. How can you have a problem with the state keeping those records when you keep them yourself for the fed. The state keeps those records for criminal investigations, the same reason you keep them for the fed. Just about any agency can request a trace thru the NTC. Your records included.
Obviously, because you're feeding at the same trough they do.
NICS doesn't mean a shorter waiting period for people who are not prohibited. The exact opposite can be shown in some POC states. Again, this from the FBI.
Not all states have mandated waiting periods and some have been repealed or changed. Federal laws are never repealed or changed because of special interests and the total disconnect between congress and the diverse requirements of different states and the local population.
Well, you certainly don't because you're in TX.
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dogtown tom
Member
All but two of my denials were overturned on appeal.
Same or similar name to a prohibited person.
And the "glaring examples of that recently"? Entirely the fault of the DOD, not NICS.
Oh.........so now your going to claim your AR was stolen? Got it. You should have mentioned that in your post.
While thefts from a gun store make the news, thefts from nonlicensees GREATLY exceed firearm thefts from dealers.
One reason may be it's a Federal crime to steal a gun from a licensee.
Yes I do.
Because Federal law requires me to keep records.....it DOES NOT require the state of California (or Washington, New York, New Jersey, etc) to keep additional records.
I find it interesting that you support additional restrictions and regulation of firearms ownership.
And as a licensed dealer all I keep is a record of the initial sale/transfer to the buyer. I DON'T keep ongoing records of subsequent transfers and possession of that firearms.
Wrong.
States with firearm registration aren't keeping those records to aid in criminal investigations. They are doing it to oppress the public.
I don't think there is a licensed dealer in America that would object to the removal of the recordkeeping requirements of the Gun Control Act of 1968.
Uh, what?
I make the same amount of $ no matter whether there is a waiting period or not.
I don't think you really understand anything about being an FFL and what we actually do.
If you think "feeding at the same trough" means I get paid by the Federal government.....you are sadly mistaken again. As an FFL, I agree to abide by Federal law on the sale and transfer of firearms. If you think that means I'm "feeding at the same trough"............then go look in the mirror at someone else who's doing the same thing. After all, you claim to have no criminal record and supposedly sign each Form 4473 certifying under penalty of law that you are not prohibited from receiving or possessing a firearm.
If you are abiding by Federal law on the possession and transfer of firearms then you too are feeding at the same trough.
The heck it does.
Prior to the implementation of the NICS, Federal law required a five day waiting period which was intended to allow local LE to run a background check on the buyer. When NICS began it eliminated the waiting period allowing buyers to receive their firearm immediately. The overwhelming majority of FBI NICS transaction receive a "proceed" within minutes.
Meaning the dealer can hand you your firearm and off you go.
Now if you live in a state that has a waiting period as STATE LAW.....my sympathies.
Well of course!
States that are their own POC are also the most likely to have additional restrictions like registration and waiting periods beyond what Federal law requires.
Not true.
Federal laws do change, as do ATF regulations. You may not have noticed but there isn't an Assault Weapons ban, no Hi cap magazine ban, you can make a pistol into a rifle and back into a pistol.
I have an understanding of Federal law and ATF regulations.....which you do not.
Washington state law doesn't concern me, but I'm aware of many of its restrictions. Mostly because WA residents complain about them.
CoalTrain49
Member
And how long did that take? The last thing I read was there was a 15 month backlog and an attorney was recommended to file the appeal.
Yep DOD. Another federal gov't dept. There are 15 federal gov't departments. DOD being one of them.
When you throw those in with all the state and local agencies that are supposed to or should move data to the FBI one can start understand why prohibited people aren't identified by just a NICS check.
While we're on the subject of Devin Patrick Kelley, he was denied a concealed weapons permit by a Texas DPS back ground check because he was arrested in Texas as a fugitive from mental facility in NM. More information that never made it to the FBI.
I don't even own an AR. I was using that as a hypothetical situation and you jumped to a conclusion.
The prisons are full of people who were prosecuted and convicted of federal crimes. Do you honestly believe criminals don't commit crimes because they might be prosecuted by the feds instead of the state. That's a good laugh. Most them are too stupid to know the difference. The fact that a person falsifies a 4473 is a federal offense but 160,000 people do it every year anyway just like they steal mail.
Why do you find it interesting? Filling out an additional state form isn't a restriction because I'm not a restricted person. Never kept me from buying a firearm and I've lived here for 32 years. WA state doesn't keep any additional records that would help a LE agency kick down your door any faster. They keep more or less the same records you do. Here's the form if you don't believe me.
http://www.dol.wa.gov/forms/652001.pdf
The information you are holding in a 4473 is way more than any LE agency needs to kick down your door. A name and address is all they need.
Uh, what?
I make the same amount of $ no matter whether there is a waiting period or not.
I don't think you really understand anything about being an FFL and what we actually do.
If you think "feeding at the same trough" means I get paid by the Federal government.....you are sadly mistaken again. As an FFL, I agree to abide by Federal law on the sale and transfer of firearms. If you think that means I'm "feeding at the same trough"............then go look in the mirror at someone else who's doing the same thing. After all, you claim to have no criminal record and supposedly sign each Form 4473 certifying under penalty of law that you are not prohibited from receiving or possessing a firearm.
If you are abiding by Federal law on the possession and transfer of firearms then you too are feeding at the same trough.
Nope. I'm retired. None of my income is derived from any federal gun control legislation like Brady. It's exactly the opposite. I have to support all of the federal bureaucratic agencies and their official licensees to purchase a firearm. I think you are confusing writing a check with cashing one.
Explain to me how the major federal laws, NFA, GCA and Brady have changed. AWB was a sunset law from the beginning. It had an expiration date. New legislation was required. If it hadn't been written with a sunset clause we would still be living with it just like NFA, GCA and Brady
There are only 10 states with additional waiting periods. WA is 5 days for pistol without a CPL and waived with CPL because it's a POC state. Not a huge issue for someone who isn't restricted in the first place.
I'm not going to take up anymore of your time. I'm sure you have better things to do than counter everything I post. Cheers.
Theohazard
Member
C’mon, stop beating the straw man. That’s the second time you’ve mentioned that irrelevant fact so far. But nobody is disputing that.CoalTrain49 said:
Considering Tom is a dealer in a state where such NICS exemptions are permitted, I’m pretty sure he knows that a person with a federally-approved permit (in a state that permits it) can skip the NICS check...
Theohazard
Member
It’s not the same: The government’s access to that information is completely different. The WA pistol form is sent to the state and they keep a searchable database of every pistol that each WA resident has ever purchased from a dealer inside the state. The feds keep no such database.
I was a WA gun shop manager for 5 years at two different high-volume shops that had ranges, and many law enforcement agencies trained at our facilities. I talked to many different police officers who told me they could look up all the handguns you’ve purchased when they run your plates during a traffic stop. That’s not quite the same thing as the info kept at an FFL.
No, it’s 10 days and has been for several years. And that’s the maximum, not the minimum: If a local PD does the background check in an hour, then the waiting period is just an hour.
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CoalTrain49
Member
Thanks for the correction. Some additional info. WA dealers run a NICS check on everything including pistols. I wasn't aware of that. The reason is our carry permit has no photo so it doesn't meet the federal requirements anymore. There is some bogus info on the ATF website.
I just got a NICS delay on a pistol even with a CPL. Actually I was legally carrying a pistol when I got the delay. Great system the federal gov't has there.
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Theohazard
Member
Yeah, to put it another way, WA state only gets directly involved in dealer firearm sales during the sale of a pistol. Otherwise, the dealer skips the state process and simply uses federal transfer rules and contacts NICS directly.
During WA handgun sales, there is an extra state pistol form to fill out. And that’s the only extra part if the buyer has a CPL: at that point the dealer contacts NICS directly and then the state pistol form is sent to the state after the gun is transferred.
However, if it’s a pistol and the buyer doesn’t have a CPL, the dealer doesn’t contact NICS directly; the state pistol form is sent to the buyer’s local LEO and they do the background check. This check can take a maximum of ten days, but if it comes back sooner the firearm can be released.
Whether or not you have a WA state CPL would have zero bearing on whether or not you get delayed by the feds. The fact that you have a CPL simply allows the dealer to skip the state process and run your background check themselves. The feds don’t care if you have a WA CPL or not, they’re just running your background check.
CoalTrain49
Member
Exactly. I just discussed this at length with my dealer. He hates the system.
dogtown tom
Member
The longest appeal took a year, the others less than five months. The one that took a year was because the buyer was still on deferred adjudication.
An attorney is not needed in most cases.
No kidding.
No one is disputing that. AGAIN, the FBI has complained for years about state and local agencies submitting their records in a timely manner.
You seem to think states have better data than the FBI........yet states don't report their records to other states. Take a guess who they report it to?
As far as I know, Texas DPS has never stated the reason for Kelley's LTC denial. It could be any number of things not related to his criminal history.
No kidding?
I am stunned but not surprised.
One day you'll wonder where all your rights went.
I think you have some bizarre notion that I (or any dealer) gets paid for doing NICS checks. We don't. If you have proof that we do please post contact info so I can get my $$$$.
I already listed a few.
Here's another........no CLEO signoff on Form 1's and Form 4's since July 13th, 2017.
Do you have to wait five days to read today's newspaper?
What if your safety or that of a loved one was threatened and they needed a firearm today............would you not consider that a violation of your Second Amendment rights?
When you post nonsense, expect disagreement.
CoalTrain49
Member
Well said.
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