Assumption of risk for shipping...

I shipped an item that showed up broken. I had another one and sent it no charge. I feel my reputation is more important then a few dollars. I also almost always ship before I get payment. Never had a problem and think I've got a good reputation on all forums because of it.

don3 said:

I shipped an item that showed up broken. I had another one and sent it no charge. I feel my reputation is more important then a few dollars. I also almost always ship before I get payment. Never had a problem and think I've got a good reputation on all forums because of it.

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Ok attitude on smaller relatively inexpensive items, but what about an $800 rifle that is no longer in production (can't be readily replaced)?

Sorry, had to find out why the txt box didn’t come up to type this reply. Couldn’t clear my blank reply either.

Ok, I see most ship postal flat rate and ASK if they want extra insurance it will cost extra. I do the same.
Collecting from a lost shipment from the postal service I have heard is terrible and sure are slow.
I have no experience and have been lucky with no lost box’s, just past due delivery’s on 2 day shipping like 4 days.
I would think Fex Ex would be a better choice on Expensive items but again no dog in this hunt.
Best of luck to you. Happy New Year.
Mike

tcoz said:

I’m going to simplify my question somewhat and just ask who takes the loss if someone pays you for an item that you ship to them and they never receive it, or receive it damaged. Do you give them their money back or not?
Let’s not even consider whether the package was insured.

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If someone pays me for an item, they either get the item or their money back. To ensure that happens, I ship UPS or FEDEX and insure.

As a buyer, I ask for insurance at full value as part of deal. I then pay with a credit card to cover myself if the seller skimps out on the insurance or a refund. This happened to me with an upper I bought but never received. USPS misdelivered, or stole it. Seller said that all he had to do was ship and then it's USPS's fault or mine for not getting it and he didn't purchase insurance because USPS is too expensive. After much back and forth, I asked for a chargeback, USAA agreed and he was out his upper and the money. That sucks, but he could've prevented it easily.

So, bottom line, and most banks agree, that the customer pays and deserves the product or a refund. The seller responsibility doesn't end with dropping the package at the post office...

tcoz said:

Wisco, I agree for expensive items but I’ve bought and sold at least a couple thousand dollars worth of things, almost all under $200, over the past year and I’ve never asked the seller to insure the shipment and I’ve never been asked by the buyer to insure even though I do if the value exceeds $75.

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I think we agree on this, just a few dollars in value difference. I don't have the numbers in my head, but some insurance is always included ($100 for UPS?). My general rule is to always ask for insurance above the minimum just so I am covered, especially when describing the situation to my bank for a chargeback.

This is almost exclusively regarding private parties, not companies. Brownells missed a $75 item in my $500 shipment recently and gladly and quickly reversed the charge whereas a private individual might've been more difficult about eating the cost of $75 grips.

I just figure it into the cost of doing business and try not think about the money I could've saved by not buying insurance on items shipped anymore than I think about the car insurance I haven't made a claim on in 15 years.

milemaker13 said:

Ok attitude on smaller relatively inexpensive items, but what about an $800 rifle that is no longer in production (can't be readily replaced)?

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The few guns I've shipped have been black powder, under $500.00 and shipped UPS. I Have never sold anything that high value through mail, all local.

I look at it as the shipper assumes the risk, up to the point I sign for the package. If you are worried about the cost just do + shipping and roll it in.

I look at it this way - If I were to buy something and never received it I'm going to want my money back. In the same vein, if I sell something and the buyer never receives it I have to expect they are going to want their money back too. I'm not selling it to the shipper, after all. Since I would not want to refund out of my pocket, I'm darn sure going to insure the package to protect myself moreso than the buyer.

Since the rise of ecomerce in general and ebay in particular people have found ways to get confused on this point. It's gotten so bad that I catch 'businesses' doing the same thing. The quotes come from the fact that I consider this a very unprofessional policy for an actual business. I see this as part of the cost of running a business - the buyer has to get their product, whether you hand it over the counter or send it to them. Selling via the mail entails some cost in insuring this, but I just cannot see where the seller can rightly escape this most basic of business principles. I generally refrain from dealing with either businesses or individuals that choose to ship unprofessionally but offer me the opportunity to compensate for their choice.

I’ve bought lots of stuff online. I’ve only been stiffed for an item one time. I used to call the guy every 6 months and ask about my money, but I quit after his dad answered and informed me he was in jail.
I’ve took it up the rear as a seller on eBay due to their buyer is right policy regardless of facts. I sold a boat prop to a man that was not perfect, sold it very cheap in untested condition, with very good pics of imperfections. Seller wants to return it (2 weeks later) but the shipping was more than the item. Sends Ebay pictures showing everything I showed in my add and they steal my money. I suspect it was the wrong size or the buyer is a con.
Sent me threatening messages and all, guys never met me or he wouldn’t have acted like that. And Ebay still made me refund him.

That’s the root of the issue with internet sales, people have no respect. They get tough behind a computer screen. Women are even worse, my wife sells Etsy and you wouldn’t believe the hateful stuff people message her. Etsy has some flaws in how you deliver digital images that need customized. It automatically sends someone the example when the purchase it. They are supposed to purchase it, send wife details to insert, and she sends them their digital copy. Instead people don’t read the add and get absolutely flaming mad when they get a example file in their confirmation email. I’ve told her before to refund their money and explain that she won’t do business with such hateful people, but that backfires because they then leave horrific feedback and her sales drop for a couple weeks.

You folks may agree on certain practice but there are laws and regulations specifically address these issues in the business world.
Remember the term FOB ? Meaning free on board?
That means the seller will load an item on a common carrier free of charge. Once it is loaded the buyer is responsible for shipping costs.
When the buyer pays shipping under this type of contract the title to the purchased item is conveyed when the loading is completed. At that instant it is all the buyers responsibility for shipping and delivery.

All of this is covered in the Uniform Commercial Code.

It is the sellers Obligation to provide Insurance, Not the Buyer.. If there Is a Problem Again It is the sellers Obligation to Open a claim.
Some seller do not agree. I do not accept any Broken Item . I never pay by Money Order, Only Check or Credit Card.. If an Item Is Damaged Or Not as describer. I always Stop Payment.
The buyer pays the shipping But the seller , since He is on the Receipt is Responsible. This is Standard Business Practice. / Most Sellers will Disagree. They only Learn when You Stop Payment
Sal

Ireload2 said:

You folks may agree on certain practice but there are laws and regulations specifically address these issues in the business world.
Remember the term FOB ? Meaning free on board?
That means the seller will load an item on a common carrier free of charge. Once it is loaded the buyer is responsible for shipping costs.
When the buyer pays shipping under this type of contract the title to the purchased item is conveyed when the loading is completed. At that instant it is all the buyers responsibility for shipping and delivery..

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Transactions of this type will have a sales contract and title as you have mentioned. This is not the type of transaction we are talking about. More like you bought something from Amazon and it never arrived. You'd expect them to make it right, not just to have offered you the opportunity to have insured the package yourself.

tcoz said:

Now let’s take it a step further and ask whether the buyer should pay for the insurance in the case where the item is advertised as “shipping not included”. The insurance is protecting the seller from loss so I would think it should not be considered as part of the shipping charges and the seller should pay for it. Is that how everybody handles it?

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If there is any issue it is because the seller does not recognize their inherent obligation to ensure their buyer receives their goods undamaged. If they recognize and accept that responsibility, they will either insure the package or refund out of their pocket if necessary at their discretion.

Unfortunately there are a world of lousy sellers out there that intend to pad their profits by under-spending on shipping or trying to escape possible obligation. You can at times see their intent when they offer to send something that costs less than $100 via UPS ground and then insist it is uninsured unless you pay an additional fee. UPS ground shipments are insured to $100 by default..

All sales are commercial transactions. All sales are the result of a verbal or written contract. In the absence of any other written contract the seller has the responsibility to address and pack the item for safe delivery. If the buyer pays for the shipping the shipping contract exists only between the shipper and the buyer. That means title was conveyed when the shipper receives the item. After that there is no further liability for the seller.
In the absence of a written contract the Uniform Commercial Code still has regulations that apply. Otherwise interstate transactions would be unregulated and would result in mass uncontrolled fraud and ananarchy.

No I have had no problem with Amazon.
But I did take 2 rigorous semesters of business law. That is why I know about the Uniform Commercial Code.

When a contract exists to sell the item and deliver it in good condition then title is conveyed upon acceptance by the buyer.

Other business practices may exist to insure transactions always result in customer goodwill but those are only customary and are not compulsory.

ray15 said:

Transactions of this type will have a sales contract and title as you have mentioned. This is not the
type of transaction we are talking about. More like you bought something from Amazon and it never arrived. You'd expect them to make it right, not just to have offered you the opportunity to have insured the package yourself.

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Ireload2 said:

If the buyer pays for the shipping the shipping contract exists only between the shipper and the buyer.

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Using modern package carriers, paying for the shipping establishes no relationship with the shipper. If the seller arranges shipment, the shipper charges that seller for the shipping services and the contract exists between those two alone. Charging the buyer for the shipping doesn't change this. As the buyer you cannot file a claim against whatever insurance may exist or exercise other rights.

I agree if the buyer were to arrange shipment the seller's obligation ends upon tendering it to the shipper.

Unless you know the UNIFORM COMMERCIAL CODE you don't really know what you are talking about.
If the seller declines to file a claim you have no basis for any claim against anyone. Try your version with the post office. The damaged item has to be examined by the carrier's representative. How is your seller going to get the broken item to file the claim? The answer is he is not going to get it. If the seller has no skin in the game you are wasting your time letting the seller file the claim for YOUR property.
I know a guy that buys and sells expensive BPCR silhouette rifles. Out of about 200 rifles he had bought he (NOT SOMEONE ELSE) has had to file the damage claims against the carrier. Sometimes the carrier claims poor packaging and the seller claims it was adequately packed. As a result he suffers a loss when both the seller and the carrier deny responsibility. Replacing the broken butt stock on one of those rifles costs about $500.

ray15 said:

Using modern package carriers, paying for the shipping establishes no relationship with the shipper. If the seller arranges shipment, the shipper charges that seller for the shipping services and the contract exists between those two alone. Charging the buyer for the shipping doesn't change this. As the buyer you cannot file a claim against whatever insurance may exist or exercise other rights.

I agree if the buyer were to arrange shipment the seller's obligation ends upon tendering it to the shipper.

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Ireload2 said:

If the seller declines to file a claim you have no basis for any claim against anyone. Try your version with the post office. The damaged item has to be examined by the carrier's representative. How is your seller going to get the broken item to file the claim? The answer is he is not going to get it.

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'He' does not have to get it. The carrier and seller are not the same party. The carrier's representative can (and will) inspect the package at the delivery point. That's where the package is, after all.. This process can be initiated by the recipient but the damage claim must be filled by the shipper and he will collect any proceeds.

Ireload2 said:

I know a guy that buys and sells expensive BPCR silhouette rifles. Out of about 200 rifles he had bought he (NOT SOMEONE ELSE) has had to file the damage claims against the carrier. Sometimes the carrier claims poor packaging and the seller claims it was adequately packed. As a result he suffers a loss when both the seller and the carrier deny responsibility. Replacing the broken butt stock on one of those rifles costs about $500.

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So how well did filing it himself work out? In truth, if this is UPS, FedEx or UPS you cannot file it yourself, all claims originate from the shipper, not the recipient.

Interesting read. Should this be moved to Legal Section? Would like to see more debate on this.

Ire

Commercial buy/sell arrangements are determined by purchase orders and invoices, Deals like we transact do not have them and must be stipulated between buyer and seller. In either type of contract nothing is implied but must be stipulated.

Four Conditions need to be determined and agreed upon and they are:

Freight Prepaid
Freight collect
FOB shipping point
FOB destination

All are stand alone conditions and one does not imply and suggest another condition. The last two conditions determine when title passes. The guy that has title at the time of loss is holding the bag.....as it were.

Regardless of any legal liability I may or may not have as a seller, my intent is to make the buyer whole. If the item is damaged, or lost, I will take the hit. If I've insured the item and I can get some settlement from the carrier, Great! I realize this policy might seem stupid to many, as $$$$ is apparently God to most, and there are ways to bob, weave, shuck and jive to avoid responsibility. But if someone buys something from me, and they do not get what they paid for, I am going to make it right. Yes, I realize I would never have made it in the business world.......ymmv