NJ arrests another one....this time from Fla.

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Yeah, a State police agency misleading citizens about their gun laws so they could bust them would take a back seat to a story about someone accused of sexually harassing someone else decades ago....In any case I have never received any information from a call to State police office that was in conflict with other credible information.


jmorris: "NJ State Police? Hi, I will be driving through your state next week, and just wanted you to answer a couple of questions, OK? Here goes? What are your requirements for window tinting? Are you OK with my state only issuing a rear license plate? I have studded tires, until what date can I use them? Is it Ok for me to have a pillow where I have removed the manufacturer's tags? Do I have to have my prescription medicines in the original containers, or is it OK if I have a note from my doctor? I am an EMT in my home state, do you have a 'good samaritan' law? Is it OK if I.........."

Yeah, right.
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How did you get there from.

How about this, call this number 609-882-2000 and ask them what laws you should know about, in their State about traveling into or through it, with a pistol.
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It’s not rocket science to stay out of trouble.

You can count on a “reliable source” as suggested, that happens to be something written 3 years ago.
https://www.nraila.org/articles/20150101/guide-to-the-interstate-transportation

And hope nothing changed since then or google the State you are going to before hand and get your information directly from them.

“NJ State police firearm travel”

Has this as the #1 result. http://www.njsp.org/firearms/transport-firearm.shtml In writing from them along with the number I posted above.
 
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Sistema1927 said:
jmorris: "NJ State Police? Hi, I will be driving through your state next week, and just wanted you to answer a couple of questions, OK? Here goes? What are your requirements for window tinting? Are you OK with my state only issuing a rear license plate? I have studded tires, until what date can I use them? Is it Ok for me to have a pillow where I have removed the manufacturer's tags? Do I have to have my prescription medicines in the original containers, or is it OK if I have a note from my doctor? I am an EMT in my home state, do you have a 'good samaritan' law? Is it OK if I.........."

Yeah, right.
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Oh come on. You don’t have to ask all those silly questions. The only one’s that matter pertain to the firearm.

“Hi, is it legal for me to carry a loaded handgun in my vehicle while driving through your state? I have a CCW from Florida. No? Ok, where and how am I required to store this weapon while in your state? Locked in the trunk, unloaded, with the magazine separate from the gun? Fantastic. Thank you for your time. Oh, one last question. Should I get pulled over, do I need to present the officer with my CCW permit with my license even though the gun isn’t accessible? Ok. Thank you very much. Have a nice day.”

I would like to agree with Frank on this one. But there’s no guarantee that if you called a lawyer and they gave you non-current information (it changes all the time), they might just as likely throw you under the bus.

However, having printed information for the SAG is a great idea, if you can interpret it correctly. Usually though, the information printed is somewhat in layman’s terms with supporting statutes.
 
I don't feel any pity when I read stories like this. We have the internet. ... and it is our job to know ...
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Do you, or your parents, take any prescription drugs? If so, when you travel do you always take them in the original container, or do you dispense them into one of those 7 day plastic dispensers? Carry a nitroglycerin pill in one of those keychain containers made for them? When you travel, do you also call up each state to determine whether it allows prescription drugs outside the original container?

Even if you always use the original containers, a few months ago I heard of a men being arrested because the date on his pill bottle was over a year old. My doctor prescribes things to use 'as needed'; I sure didn't know I could be arrested if I didn't use them all in one year.

So I feel a lot of pity for people who end up in prison for doing something that didn't do a speck of harm to anyone.
 
pintler said:
Do you, or your parents, take any prescription drugs? If so, when you travel do you always take them in the original container, or do you dispense them into one of those 7 day plastic dispensers? Carry a nitroglycerin pill in one of those keychain containers made for them? When you travel, do you also call up each state to determine whether it allows prescription drugs outside the original container?

Even if you always use the original containers, a few months ago I heard of a men being arrested because the date on his pill bottle was over a year old. My doctor prescribes things to use 'as needed'; I sure didn't know I could be arrested if I didn't use them all in one year.

So I feel a lot of pity for people who end up in prison for doing something that didn't do a speck of harm to anyone.
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With all the online resources at their disposal i simply cannot believe that concealed carriers continue to be arrested in New Jersey and New York. The NRA and other gun rights organizations used to warn folks about possession of handguns in New Jersey: They probably still do.

For many years New Jersey police have arrested and prosecutors have prosecuted folks with handguns in their possession at airports. Years ago i was booked through to Maine. Because of weather the plane landed in New Jersey where we had an overnight stay. i refused to take possession of my luggage because my carry piece was inside. Took possession of my bag in Maine. Yeah, having no change of skivvies was a small price to pay compared to felony rap.

Defending a felony firearms rap in New Jersey can easily cost $25,000-$40,000. One New Jersey lawyer has a good record of defending handgun cases. But he don't come cheap.
 
pintler said:
It was in the weekly case summary Eugene Volokh posts, with links to the newspaper articles and court documents. Seemed legit to me....
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Volokh certainly is legitimate. You could have cited the source to begin with. Doing so saves questions.

I don’t simply accept as true things which someone might have “heard”, and I think it’s a poor practice to.
 
BSA1 said:
So, the fact that they saw her CCW permit was probable cause to search for the pistol?

Makes for an interesting case.

Does merely seeing a conceal carry permit lead an officer to reasonably believe the person is carrying a firearm?

If so does that give the officer the authority to ask further questions (i.e investigate) about having a gun when there is no evidence of criminal activity or crime having been committed? (For example did her vehicle match the vehicle description of a armed robbery suspect?)

The number on my Conceal Carry Permit is the same one on my Drivers License. N.J. cop runs my D.L. which also shows I have a C.C.L. Does that give him probable cause to search me and my vehicle? After all what good is a C.C.L. without a gun?

What about having a NRA or other pro-gun sticker on your vehicle? Especially on a pick-up with Alabama license plates? (After all it can be argued that Rednecks from Alabama all have guns).

The Supreme Court upheld warrantless searches of motor vehicles if illegal items are in plain view of the officer from outside the vehicle. For example pot in the ashtray. However a C.C.L. is not illegal.

The story did not say she was searched. It said there was an "investigation".

Play on legal wording. Use of the word “search” makes it 4th Amendment issue.

Christie is against the change, noting it's a state's rights issue that the federal government should stay out of.

I agree completely with Christie on this being a State’s rights issue. Conceal carry laws have been passed without any help from the Federal Government. Once we give the Feds the authority to make it legal to carry in all States we are giving them the authority to change their mind at any time and pass restrictions. Remember the Democrats and Liberals will back in power one day.

However, I will support a law that requires States like N.J. to post a sign at their borders saying "Don't EVEN think about bringing a gun and ammunition into our State."
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The officer is free to ask any questions he likes. Asking questions is how an investigation works. He saw a CWP, asked her if she had a firearm with her, she replied yes, and the officer reacted according to his state laws. The "investigation" probably lasted less than a minute. No different than if he walked up to the window and smelled alcohol, asked if the driver was drinking and got a yes reply.

I strongly disagree with NJ's state laws regarding firearms, but the officer was not wrong to investigate when he had reason to believe that a felony had been committed. There is no 4th Amendment issue here that I can see. Carrying a firearm is a big responsibility and it is up to each of us to make sure we are acting within the law. I wonder how much discretion NJ law enforcement has and if it would have been possible to advise the woman that she needs to unload the firearm and lock it in the trunk.

I hope this case is dismissed.
 
You could have cited the source to begin with
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Not without spending a fair amount of time. IMHO, holding forum comments to the same footnoting standards as a dissertation or brief would be a loss; what was posted would be more accurate, but a lot less would be posted. It perhaps an hour to find the decision below for you; many posters don't have that kind of time yet still provide valuable information.

Having tracked it down, it shows the folly in my relying on my old memories; the date in question was not the date on the pill bottle, but the date on other prescription records (although to my amateur reading, where the date was printed doesn't seem material):

"Officer Garcia observed that Plaintiff had one or more metal vials attached to his key chain; when Officer
Garcia looked inside the vials, he observed fourteen pills
...
Officer Garcia expressed concern about the pills in Plaintiff’s vial; in
response, his mother retrieved Plaintiff’s prescription records from her vehicle"

https://www.ca10.uscourts.gov/opinions/15/15-2058.pdf

In any event, the original point stands: there does seem to be a risk to possessing prescription drugs in other than the original container, or that weren't recently prescribed. A little googling finds other examples. It is, I think, an example of something that many people would not expect to be a crime.
 
Sauer Grapes said:
So, how many states did she pass thru breaking the law????? Probably most of them depending on reciprocity with Florida. I feel bad for her, but you can't just drive around the country with a loaded firearm in your vehicle.
If she got in an accident and car had to be towed, she goes to hospital, police would still find the gun in all likely hood.
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BSA1 said:
er, actually you can in many States, especially in here in middle America.

There is a huge disconnect between West and Northeastern States and the majority of other States.
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As I noted in my original post, depending on reciprocity. Pa for instance is honored in a lot of states, most are out west. We have none that border our state. I agree, out west is totally different than here on the coast.
If the woman came from Florida, I am assuming she drove thru Maryland. Maryland is just as bad as New Jersey.
It's still her responsibility to know what states honor he Florida CCW license. Maryland and Jersey aren't one of them.
 
pintler said:
Not without spending a fair amount of time. IMHO, holding forum comments to the same footnoting standards as a dissertation or brief would be a loss; what was posted would be more accurate, but a lot less would be posted. ....
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Actually, a lot less bad or bogus information would be posted -- and that would be a net gain.

Why is it that people think that more posts are better without consideration of the quality or reliability of the information? That sort of sloppiness is ne reason why there is so much garbage on the Internet and one reason why people believe so much that isn't true.

Accuracy is much more important than volume. Bad information is worse than useless. Not only is it incorrect but it also leads people to think that they "know" something so they are disinclined to look further for better information.

So thank you for your continuing efforts to promote ignorance in cyberspace.
 
Consider the revolver forum. MaxP and CraigC frequently post on the subject of big bore revolvers. To my recollection, they very rarely cite sources. I think it would be a great loss if they never posted without taking the time to provide a citation for every factoid they pull out of their fund of general knowledge. Sure, the rule would stop nonsense from being posted, but MaxP and CraigC might decide they have better things to do with their time. It's a tradeoff, and I guess we see the tradeoff differently.

"So thank you for your continuing efforts to promote ignorance in cyberspace."

An odd way to characterize providing you the sources you requested. Let's stay on the High Road.
 
pintler said:
Consider the revolver forum. MaxP and CraigC frequently post on the subject of big bore revolvers. To my recollection, they very rarely cite sources. I think it would be a great loss if they never posted without taking the time to provide a citation for every factoid they pull out of their fund of general knowledge.....
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First, they might within that realm have established some credibility. Some sources on some topics can generally be accepted without necessarily providing proof. A lot also depends on the importance of the subject.

Much of the time when discussing various subjects consequences arising from misinformation might be negligible. But when discussing legal or law related issues, like use-of-force, bad information can get folks into a lot of trouble. Reliability and accuracy are therefore much more important.

pintler said:
...."So thank you for your continuing efforts to promote ignorance in cyberspace."

An odd way to characterize providing you the sources you requested. Let's stay on the High Road.
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While continuing to rationalize why you shouldn't have had to bother.

Lousy data, incorrect information, and the specious opinions they lead to have no value and don't acquire value simply because so many people are unwilling to put out the effort to do better.
 
BSA1 said:
Other than District of Columbia v. Heller in 2008 and McDonald v. Chicago in 2010 the Supreme Court has refused to hear any more gun cases. Whether that is a good thing or a bad thing is of considerable debate.

The Supreme Court is pretty evenly split between Conservatives and Liberals with Justice Kennedy generally considered to be the swing vote. With Liberal Justices Ginsburg being 85 years old and Breyer being 80 and with President Trump being very Pro-2A I join with the group that believes we should wait until a Liberal Justice retires (or dies) and is replaced with a Conservative before the Court hears another case.
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I think that is probably wise, it is a shame that we have to even think about it. Inaliable rights should not be stepped on by any part of our government. We are reaping what we have sown in the USA, hopefully it is not too late to course correct our country.
 
Well the way I see it (means nothin) NJ (and others) strip away an American’s unalienable right to life when that citizen crosses their states border. I don’t understand how you can have a right to life without having the right to defend that life. As we’ve seen so often, others don’t value life and have no problems taking it. It’s great that we have that right. But without the ability to defend it, we really don’t have that right. It’s just lip service.
 
Maryland is one of the worst in the country thanks to Martin O'Malley Drive from Delaware and cross any part of Maryland and you can be arrested
 
I agree completely with Christie on this being a State’s rights issue. Conceal carry laws have been passed without any help from the Federal Government. Once we give the Feds the authority to make it legal to carry in all States we are giving them the authority to change their mind at any time and pass restrictions. Remember the Democrats and Liberals will back in power one day.
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Hey I was gonna say that exactly! Now what do I post?

Seriously you're exactly right. I want no part of the feds having the power to reject my right to carry concealed. We are far more likely to keep that right if it is a state issue. One more mass killing and the feds could change on a dime including the so called opposition to the Dems, the Republicans. My state is VERY unlikely to retract CCW rights. The feds are another story completely. I am flat out against nationalizing CCW laws. If the law is written so that states still have actual control over the right then that may be a different story. But I am wary of any law giving more power to the feds.

As for the woman arrested she plain should have known better than to go to NJ with a concealed handgun. We are responsible for knowing the laws of the states we travel to. I have a list of those laws I check before traveling anywhere.

"Investigating" could mean a lot of things. Fishing expeditions by LEO's are not limited to NJ though. I've had them ask me to check latched boxes in my vehicle where I carry my prescribed medicine. I flat out told the cop no because I suspected he would find something to complain about and maybe arrest me for. He was already accusing me of DUI (which I absolutely was not doing) because I was tired. He made that judgement after stopping me for going 2 mph over the speed limit. He was fishing for money period and I wasn't going to give him a hook to use. Most cops are fine Americans but some are looking to fulfill quotas because they earn more money if they do. That really, really stinks. You don't investigate based on filling quotas. Not IMO. Again I have tremendous respect for anyone wearing a badge but I've seen some that used it as a license to steal IMO. Not many but some. All apologies to the LEO's who do it right which is the vast majority.
 
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