A Legal Issue with Firearm Serial Numbers

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Doug Bowser

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A Problem with Military Firearm Serial Numbers

By Doug Bowser


My first experience with a misidentified serial number on a military firearm was in Florida. I bought a sporterized K98k 8x57mm rifle in New York and took it with me when I moved to Florida. I decided to sell it and took it to a local Pawn Shop. We discussed the deal and the dealer called in the serial number to the local Sheriff’s Office. The Sheriff’s Deputy arrived and arrested me for having possession of stolen property. All they had on file was the 4 digit serial number. I had the receipt for the rifle in my files, so I was able to get out of Dutch easily. I had to make bail and hire a Lawyer. The problem is, German and some WW1 British firearms have serial numbers that keep the enemy from knowing how many firearms are in existence. To have the total identifying serial number, you must have the manufacturer’s name or code, year of manufacture, the 4 digit serial number and the suffix letter. In Nazi firearms the first serial number in any given year is 0001a. This goes to 9999a and then changes to 0001b, etc. When the number goes past the letter z, it starts out as 0001aa, etc. I got out of trouble but it cost me $600.00. I went to the Pawn Shop to complain and tell them they owed me $600.00. He said he did not owe me anything. I told him, if he was to engage in selling firearms, he needed to increase his knowledge. I was a member of 5 gun clubs in the area and I informed the club’s membership how badly I was treated by the Pawn Shop. In a few months, they were out of business.

About 10 years ago, I bought a Luger. It was sent to me on my C&R license. I received the pistol and it was very nice. It was of Mauser manufacture in 1940, serial # 4368b. After I had the pistol for a few weeks I received a phone call from the Rhode Island State Police. Sgt. Gomez told me I was in possession of a stolen firearm. He was going to have my local police agency pick it up that day. I asked him what the serial number was. He told me 4368. I asked where the rest of it was. He did not know what I was talking about. After I explained the serial numbering system and talked to him for over an hour, he agreed it was not the same pistol. I sent him scans from a book of the explanation of how the serial numbers were used in WW2 and he was satisfied. He got a photo of the stolen pistol and it was very rusty and pitted.

Be careful how you record serial numbers on Nazi and British firearms from WW 1 & 2, It could save you a lot of trouble.
 
Somewhat more recent problem; GLOCK's with the US suffix on the serial number. Lots of police reports didn't include that, so there was no match when a later check was made with the numbers AND the suffix.
 
A few years ago when the ministry of interior attempted to finally get Finnish firearms registration database sorted out, they came up with literally hundreds of Mosin Nagant rifles registered with the same serial number, 86432.

It turned out that the distance adjustment markings on the sights are for multiples of 100 meters, from 800 to 200m, stamped on the side of the rear sight.
 
A few years ago when the ministry of interior attempted to finally get Finnish firearms registration database sorted out, they came up with literally hundreds of Mosin Nagant rifles registered with the same serial number, 86432.

It turned out that the distance adjustment markings on the sights are for multiples of 100 meters, from 800 to 200m, stamped on the side of the rear sight.
That's really funny.
 
A few years ago when the ministry of interior attempted to finally get Finnish firearms registration database sorted out, they came up with literally hundreds of Mosin Nagant rifles registered with the same serial number, 86432.

It turned out that the distance adjustment markings on the sights are for multiples of 100 meters, from 800 to 200m, stamped on the side of the rear sight.

I agree with milemaker. It's hilarious. And come to think of it, a good way to gum up the works in less free states.
 
A Problem with Military Firearm Serial Numbers

By Doug Bowser


My first experience with a misidentified serial number on a military firearm was in Florida. I bought a sporterized K98k 8x57mm rifle in New York and took it with me when I moved to Florida. I decided to sell it and took it to a local Pawn Shop. We discussed the deal and the dealer called in the serial number to the local Sheriff’s Office. The Sheriff’s Deputy arrived and arrested me for having possession of stolen property. All they had on file was the 4 digit serial number. I had the receipt for the rifle in my files, so I was able to get out of Dutch easily. I had to make bail and hire a Lawyer. The problem is, German and some WW1 British firearms have serial numbers that keep the enemy from knowing how many firearms are in existence. To have the total identifying serial number, you must have the manufacturer’s name or code, year of manufacture, the 4 digit serial number and the suffix letter. In Nazi firearms the first serial number in any given year is 0001a. This goes to 9999a and then changes to 0001b, etc. When the number goes past the letter z, it starts out as 0001aa, etc. I got out of trouble but it cost me $600.00. I went to the Pawn Shop to complain and tell them they owed me $600.00. He said he did not owe me anything. I told him, if he was to engage in selling firearms, he needed to increase his knowledge. I was a member of 5 gun clubs in the area and I informed the club’s membership how badly I was treated by the Pawn Shop. In a few months, they were out of business.

About 10 years ago, I bought a Luger. It was sent to me on my C&R license. I received the pistol and it was very nice. It was of Mauser manufacture in 1940, serial # 4368b. After I had the pistol for a few weeks I received a phone call from the Rhode Island State Police. Sgt. Gomez told me I was in possession of a stolen firearm. He was going to have my local police agency pick it up that day. I asked him what the serial number was. He told me 4368. I asked where the rest of it was. He did not know what I was talking about. After I explained the serial numbering system and talked to him for over an hour, he agreed it was not the same pistol. I sent him scans from a book of the explanation of how the serial numbers were used in WW2 and he was satisfied. He got a photo of the stolen pistol and it was very rusty and pitted.

Be careful how you record serial numbers on Nazi and British firearms from WW 1 & 2, It could save you a lot of trouble.

Question- In the first case, was the stolen gun recorded as simply a "firearm" with serial XXXX, or was it recorded as a K98k with serial XXXX?
 
Back years ago, I had my agency's property room for about two years... It was routine each morning to get a printout from NCIC on every firearm serial number for weapons that had been impounded in the previous 24 hours so imagine my surprise when a Sears entry level bolt action .22 rifle received 16 stolen messages when I entered it (and the stolen reports went back 30 years or more with one or two of them....). All of this with a pretty long serial number if I remember correctly... Since I was just working from the paperwork I'd received I quickly went through my incoming bin to find the weapon and try to figure out what was going on.... and it was funny when you think about it... This was a pre-1968 firearm that had no actual serial number so police departments around the country had entered stolen messages based on the patent number (that was prominently displayed on the barrel - and probably exactly what the victim/owner had reported to them....) which was obviously the same on however many of these little rifles that were in private hands around the country...

I couldn't enter it as a recovered firearm since it didn't have a serial number - but did send messages to every outfit that had filed messages listing them under the patent number so that they could try to correct their error. Don't think I received one reply from anyone about this obvious problem - so much for bureaucracy....

Add to this sort of stuff folks that recover their own stolen property and never bother to notify the original agency and you can see there's lots of room for error -built into the "system". At least that's how it was back in the early eighties when this occurred...
 
A couple of years ago I bought a used Glock 17 at a pawn shop. When I got home I looked at the receipt and realized that they had the wrong serial number on the paperwork. Turns out that the Glocks barrel had been changed at some point in its life. The clerk used the barrel serial number instead of the frame number. I ended up having to drive about 40 minutes back to the shop so they could do another 4473. The shop apologized and when I came back in they gave me a box of ammo and a holster to make up for my time.
 
There are probably untold numbers of Smith & Wesson revolvers registered by the fitting number under the yoke instead of the serial number on the butt.

I ran into this at a pawn shop with a Smith revolver years ago, and had to correct the clerk when he was about to enter the wrong number.
 
Lotsa funny (and not-so-funny) stories on this thread. Here's another one.

I was in line at the sheriff's office to register a new pistol. (Yes, we have to do that.) The guy ahead of me was somebody I knew -- a security guard at my workplace who was also a part-time sheriff's deputy. He was there to switch the registration of an old revolver that was found in the attic of a recently deceased relative. The person who inherited it didn't want it and gave it to him.

He filled out the paperwork and turned it in. The deputy behind the counter, who knew him personally, went to the computer and starting entering the transfer. He stopped, came back with a concerned face, and said, "Umm ... it's coming back as stolen." Awkward ...

They finally straightened it out. It was the same serial number but a different make and model from the one that had been stolen. Just totally coincidental duplicate serial number -- a fluke. At least nobody got arrested.
 
Lotsa funny (and not-so-funny) stories on this thread. Here's another one.

I was in line at the sheriff's office to register a new pistol. (Yes, we have to do that.) The guy ahead of me was somebody I knew -- a security guard at my workplace who was also a part-time sheriff's deputy. He was there to switch the registration of an old revolver that was found in the attic of a recently deceased relative. The person who inherited it didn't want it and gave it to him.

He filled out the paperwork and turned it in. The deputy behind the counter, who knew him personally, went to the computer and starting entering the transfer. He stopped, came back with a concerned face, and said, "Umm ... it's coming back as stolen." Awkward ...

They finally straightened it out. It was the same serial number but a different make and model from the one that had been stolen. Just totally coincidental duplicate serial number -- a fluke. At least nobody got arrested.

What do you do in your area when a firearm has no serial numbers at all? I own several firearms that were manufactured prior to numbers being required. I also own one handgun that was deliberately manufactured without any kind of markings. (It was part of a group intended for the CIA) I do have a letter from BATF allowing it however.
 
What do you do in your area when a firearm has no serial numbers at all? I own several firearms that were manufactured prior to numbers being required. I also own one handgun that was deliberately manufactured without any kind of markings. (It was part of a group intended for the CIA) I do have a letter from BATF allowing it however.
You're allowed to put it in as "none available," but if there is a serial number, it has to go on the registration.
 
They finally straightened it out. It was the same serial number but a different make and model from the one that had been stolen. Just totally coincidental duplicate serial number -- a fluke. At least nobody got arrested.

In the pre-WW II era, S&W used parallel serial numbers on their various platforms. A .32 Long I-frame, .32-20 K-frame, .38 Special K-frame, and a .44 Special N-frame could all have the same serial number.
 
One of the first guns I ever bought was an old 16ga single shot at an estate auction. The auction company had a dealer on location to do transfers since there were a lot of guns in the estate. The only markings on the gun were "Riverside Arms Chicopee Falls MA" and "Patented August 12, 1913". It took quite a while to get transferred because the dealer was insistent on locating a serial number. I was about to ask for my money back from the auction company when an old timer told the dealer to call it in anyway.
 
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