Very Impressive .38 Special Load

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I use the BB SP 158gr LSWHP- the standard-pressure version- in my .38s and my 2" Rhino. I've been impressed with the test results I've seen, and similar rounds have historically been pretty effective. Honestly though I don't worry excessively about having the 'best of the best' in terms of ammo; I'm more interested in shot placement and adequate penetration. If the bullet also performs well that's great, but it's a secondary consideration.
 
The wife (see avatar) insists on using 38 PMC 132 grain fmj in her 4 inch charter arms. Makes me crazy. We have bigger guns and better ammo. Her mind is made up and after 25 years I know when to pick my battles

But she is a good shooter and pity the fool that tests her resolve by trying to break in when she is home.

The Air Force used a similar load for a number of years. Despite it being labeled a wimp round, it made some people who ran the gate push daisies.
 
Am I wrong or some gun makers don't recommend to use Buffalo Bore in their guns because of the pressure and power of those loads?
 
Am I wrong or some gun makers don't recommend to use Buffalo Bore in their guns because of the pressure and power of those loads?

This is why I wanted to be a voice of caution regarding these rounds.

Some people will try to stick these in an older gun, something lower-budget or of unknown history and think they now have what amounts to low-end .357 performance for a song. That they have "beat the system", so to speak. But there are no free lunches, and the consequences could obviously be disastrous.


Granted that the saying "buyer beware" still holds as far as the gun and ammo both, but all it takes is a couple of posts indicating that it should be OK (for whatever reason) and they will run with it. Mostly because they want very badly to believe that it is true.
 
Also, those .38-44 loads may OVERPENETRATE in a defense situation. I know the poster said it penetrated 13 inches, but what was the test medium. Heavy bullet .357 loads usually penetrate much deeper. Good for bears, bad for people. You could get a through and through hit on a bad guy and end up in jail for felony reckless endangerment. I would almost guarantee a civil suit you will lose.
Considering that a miss is the ultimate in 'overpenetration' and that most shots fired in a gun battle are misses, it seems that one should worry more about marksmanship than what ammo is in the gun. Bystanders will be just as mad if you miss the bad guy and accidentally hit them, especially with a round that hasn't been slowed down by passing through a body.
 
USSR and NIGHTLORD40K, you are right and also wrong. The L-frames were developed because of the switch by police departments to .357 magnum and .38 Special +P ammo (both ammo types). Also, at this time, many departments were starting to use carry ammo for PRACTICE and qualification. This played havoc with the K-frames.

The police departments and competitors both complained that S&W K-frame revolvers were wearing out, suffering from frame stretch and going out of time.

The modern designed RUGER Security Six and slightly larger framed COLT revolvers were not affected to the same degree that the K-frame suffered.

Also, the 110 grain .357 magnum is among the lowest pressure .357 ammo. Today’s 110 grain .357 reaches 1300 to 1350 fps, while the hotter 125 grain ammo runs 1400 to 1500 fps. It was the 125 grain that was so hard on guns.

My agency started issuing the old FBI gun, a K-frame, the S&W model 13 with a 3 inch barrel and round butt when I went through the academy. We were issued 110 grain jhp ammo. Later, some of the 125 grain jhp meant for another agency got into our supply chain and we were told in no uncertain terms to NOT USE IT. We had at least one model 13 crack the forcing cone. I had a privately purchased L-frame, a S&W 681 and was given as many boxes of the 125 grain ammo to practice and qualify with as I wanted. You knew the 125 grain was the hotter load from the very first shot. I had a foot long fireball coming out of the muzzle, so bright is clearly showed to the firearms instructors in the tower on a mid-August day in South Florida.

Way back in the 1970’s, I bought some 110 grain ammo and it was definitely hotter than the stuff sold now. It advertised over 1400 fps. However, the 110 grain ammo developed a reputation for having pressure variations outside normal limits and it was downloaded till it became stable.
 
CP,

Just ask the two NYPD cops who fired at short range on a guy in the street and had multiple through and through over penetration and several wounded bystanders. Also, ask the bystanders about it.

Jim
 
USSR and NIGHTLORD40K, you are right and also wrong. The L-frames were developed because of the switch by police departments to .357 magnum and .38 Special +P ammo (both ammo types). Also, at this time, many departments were starting to use carry ammo for PRACTICE and qualification. This played havoc with the K-frames.

The police departments and competitors both complained that S&W K-frame revolvers were wearing out, suffering from frame stretch and going out of time.

The modern designed RUGER Security Six and slightly larger framed COLT revolvers were not affected to the same degree that the K-frame suffered.

Also, the 110 grain .357 magnum is among the lowest pressure .357 ammo. Today’s 110 grain .357 reaches 1300 to 1350 fps, while the hotter 125 grain ammo runs 1400 to 1500 fps. It was the 125 grain that was so hard on guns.

My agency started issuing the old FBI gun, a K-frame, the S&W model 13 with a 3 inch barrel and round butt when I went through the academy. We were issued 110 grain jhp ammo. Later, some of the 125 grain jhp meant for another agency got into our supply chain and we were told in no uncertain terms to NOT USE IT. We had at least one model 13 crack the forcing cone. I had a privately purchased L-frame, a S&W 681 and was given as many boxes of the 125 grain ammo to practice and qualify with as I wanted. You knew the 125 grain was the hotter load from the very first shot. I had a foot long fireball coming out of the muzzle, so bright is clearly showed to the firearms instructors in the tower on a mid-August day in South Florida.

Way back in the 1970’s, I bought some 110 grain ammo and it was definitely hotter than the stuff sold now. It advertised over 1400 fps. However, the 110 grain ammo developed a reputation for having pressure variations outside normal limits and it was downloaded till it became stable.

Sorry Jim, but the statement you made regarding why Smith & Wesson developed the L frame: "The .38 Special FBI load worked fine in these medium size K-frame revolvers, but beat them till they loosened up and would not function." was and remains false. The L frame (a .357 Magnum revolver) was developed by Smith & Wesson because the newly developed 125 grain .357 Magnum loads was cracking the forcing cone on some of their .357 Magnum K frame revolvers. There was never a known problem associated with .38 Special +P ammo being fired in K frame .357 Magnum revolvers such as the Model 19 and 66, and wouldn't have been, since .38 Special +P ammo operates at pressure levels FAR below .357 Magnum pressure levels.

Don
 
CP,

Just ask the two NYPD cops who fired at short range on a guy in the street and had multiple through and through over penetration and several wounded bystanders. Also, ask the bystanders about it.

Jim
Give me some contact info and I will try.
 
We will have to agree to disagree USSR,

I know that the problems with +P ammo were a factor. You can see it in the fact that S&W did not want +P used in their J-frames and alloy framed revolvers. Note: they now specifically tell you now that their .38 Special revolvers are "+P rated:.
Also, I never said that +P .38 Special cracked the forcing cone. To my knowledge, that was not a problem with +P ammo. It was going out of time, guns breaking and other problems that you expect in a gun fired in completion or used for many years.
Also, it WAS NOT the pressure levels of +P ammo that caused problems, it was the heavy recoil that the 158 +P loads generated. S&W has made a big deal that new production guns are stronger than the ones made in the "GOOD OLD DAY" because of better metals and a more thorough understanding of how the gun works, as in stress placed on individual parts.

Jim
 
CP1969,

I do not have an address, but I would recommend contacting the NYPD firearms training unit.

Jim
 
I have shot the cartridge in the OP (BB .38spl +P 158gr LSWC-GC) as well as the standard pressure load. Both out of a .357mag snubbie with 2" bbl. If the revolver is rated for +P .38spl, it will handle these.

[FTR, .357mag 125gr loaded to full power are truly excruciating in a snubby and will clear the shooting positions to your right and left as they suspect a bomb is going off in your hands. .357mag 158gr and heavier are actually less painful and subjective muzzle blast is less than 125gr.]

BB .38spl +P 158gr LSWC-GC
BB .38spl +P 158gr LSWC-GC is still a handful, but much more easy to control (than any full power or mid-power .357mag) and doesn't leave your hand feeling like you caught a fastball with your bare hand. Still, not for the recoil sensitive. But it is one of the few .38spl hollow point loads to reliably get both decent penetration (12"-18") and decent hollow point expansion in a snubby with a bbl of ~2" in length.

Most the other HP loads shot from a snubby lack in penetration or don't expand, even the vaunted Speer 135gr short bbl load chokes on some of the tests. It seems that ~1000fps is the velocity level for reliable HP expansion out of a .38spl or .357mag. But the cost is substantial recoil. Maybe if a HP is not going to expand, might as well step back to match HBWC and call it good: penetration in the 12-18" envelope, guaranteed .357" crush cavity, and next to no recoil.

BB .38spl 158gr LSWC-GC (Non +P variant)
Recoil on par with the traditional FBI load, which this essentially duplicates but at lower pressures. Still spunky.
 
Most the other HP loads shot from a snubby lack in penetration or don't expand, even the vaunted Speer 135gr short bbl load chokes on some of the tests. It seems that ~1000fps is the velocity level for reliable HP expansion out of a .38spl or .357mag.

Maybe with the commercial ammo boys. Seems they have lost the knowledge of their fathers and grandfathers. The bullet in the center came out of my 2.5" snubbie at a mere 840fps.

Don
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Yeah... why do all the commercial loads have to be expensive expansion impeding copper sheathed affairs?

Do you know the hardness number of your alloy?
 
Yeah... why do all the commercial loads have to be expensive expansion impeding copper sheathed affairs?

Do you know the hardness number of your alloy?

Good question, Mauser lover. When Federal bought the rights to Hydra-Shok (the inventor is a local guy), they NEVER produced the bullet as it was designed. Noooo, they had to copper jacket it, adding to it's expense, and impeding it's expansion. Regarding my alloy's hardness, I would say it has a BHN of 8.

Don
 
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