CoalTrain49
Member
I don't know anyone who carries a 40 kw anymore. It's a dead watt.
Are the DA/SA pistols staging a comeback??
- Thread starter saturno_v
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Hokkmike
Member
Personally, I have always favored the DA/SA configuration which is odd, considering that I currently do not own one. I do have a nifty DAO FN in 5.7x28. My other is a GLOCK which is striker fired. I suppose I need to add a DA/SA to my stable now so this thread is costing me money. Thanks a lot OP!
Zaydok Allen
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There are some interesting thoughts in this thread and some good notions.
I haven't read through this entire thread, but my inner luddite is strong this morning.
I started out on a DA/SA revolver for self defense and carry.
If you can shoot a double action revolver effectively for defense, you can probably shoot any handgun acceptability with the exception of SA revolvers. They are a different animal and require different technique.
If you are used to a gun that typically has no safety other than a trigger, trigger weight, fully cocked and partially cocked firing mechanisms become irrelevant, and always were to begin with. The trigger makes the gun go boom so be careful when holstering or handling or anything really.
If you learn to pay close attention and be safe with any gun, all the arguments go out the window. The only commonality that all handguns share is that they are potentially dangerous when handled inappropriately or carelessly. So get to know your guns. Fiddle with them. Dry fire them. Learn the contours, feel, and operation without looking at your guns.
And of course, do the right thing, buy a revolver. At least to start. It never ends there.
I haven't read through this entire thread, but my inner luddite is strong this morning.
I started out on a DA/SA revolver for self defense and carry.
If you can shoot a double action revolver effectively for defense, you can probably shoot any handgun acceptability with the exception of SA revolvers. They are a different animal and require different technique.
If you are used to a gun that typically has no safety other than a trigger, trigger weight, fully cocked and partially cocked firing mechanisms become irrelevant, and always were to begin with. The trigger makes the gun go boom so be careful when holstering or handling or anything really.
If you learn to pay close attention and be safe with any gun, all the arguments go out the window. The only commonality that all handguns share is that they are potentially dangerous when handled inappropriately or carelessly. So get to know your guns. Fiddle with them. Dry fire them. Learn the contours, feel, and operation without looking at your guns.
And of course, do the right thing, buy a revolver.
At least to start. It never ends there.IIRC, the FN 5.7 is a SA with an internal hammer. Were you referring to another FN in the caliber?
Ignition Override
Member
Yesterday a shooting buddy and two young range safety officers dry-fired my CZ PO1.
They Really liked the DA/SA (and ergos etc).
They Really liked the DA/SA (and ergos etc).
I've said for a long time now that when one of these companies comes out with a little 10 ounce or less micro 380 like the LCP, bodyguard, SeeCamp etc that is DA/SA, it will be the most carried gun in America if they do it right.
The Ruger LCP is already #2 only behind the Glock 19 as the most carried gun in America. If you slapped some decent sights on it and made it DA/SA, I have no doubt that it's popularity would increase over the DA only and 2 stage trigger versions of the gun.
The Ruger LCP is already #2 only behind the Glock 19 as the most carried gun in America. If you slapped some decent sights on it and made it DA/SA, I have no doubt that it's popularity would increase over the DA only and 2 stage trigger versions of the gun.
Hokkmike
Member
No, I stand corrected. Thank you. (seems I remember learning that but had forgotten and now your post reminded me)
Proud Southern Son
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I like Glocks (and M&Ps, PPQs, etc). They’re light, simple, reasonably accurate, and cheap. It’s not difficult to teach someone the skills to get a good score on a police qualification course. They're also more likely to be involved in a negligent discharge, and malfunction if gripped incorrectly or fired with an injured hand or arm (my Glock 23 was perfect before I developed arthritis in my left hand).
DA/SA guns, and I’m referring to the traditional metal-framed gun’s with which I’m familiar, are more likely to function, regardless of grip. They are safer to handle, at least by imperfect humans. I also believe their triggers allow for more precise shooting in SA mode, and are easier to keep on target when firing at a faster pace. They’re also a little heavier than plastic guns of similar size. They have more moving parts which require more maintenance. The higher quality examples are more expensive than polymer guns. And, more significantly for large police departments, they are harder to teach to non-enthusiasts.
I don’t know that the popularity of CZs, Beretta 90 series, or traditional Sigs ever really dropped off, except in law enforcement. I think the polymer designs made quality guns more accessible to new shooters, and now some of them want to try something a little different, and are willing to spend the money.
DA/SA guns, and I’m referring to the traditional metal-framed gun’s with which I’m familiar, are more likely to function, regardless of grip. They are safer to handle, at least by imperfect humans. I also believe their triggers allow for more precise shooting in SA mode, and are easier to keep on target when firing at a faster pace. They’re also a little heavier than plastic guns of similar size. They have more moving parts which require more maintenance. The higher quality examples are more expensive than polymer guns. And, more significantly for large police departments, they are harder to teach to non-enthusiasts.
I don’t know that the popularity of CZs, Beretta 90 series, or traditional Sigs ever really dropped off, except in law enforcement. I think the polymer designs made quality guns more accessible to new shooters, and now some of them want to try something a little different, and are willing to spend the money.
Jeb Stuart
member
Totally agree. I have been shooting for years and the last 4 or 5 guns I have bought that are sub-compact or compact have been striker fired. My next purchase will be a single action/Double action or another revolver. My LC9S has worked it self down to around 4lbs and with a short crisp trigger, I just do not feel safe with the gun any longer. And I have been training with safeties for decades. Without the skill set and that light trigger I would just get rid of the gun. I will change out the springs, but still, I am moving back to a single/double action.
For a long time now I have been carrying the LCR9mm and the Pico. Both guns with nice triggers for safety. (and I train religiously with them weekly.
Panzerschwein
member
There is a TITANIC benefit in the first shot-consistant shot to shot shot of the striker guns when shot.
Jeb Stuart
member
Yea, if you do no not train with double action. It is all about range time and the individual. If you cannot handle the double action then just stick with striker fired.Just a matter of getting to know your gun and being one with the gun.
Panzerschwein
member
Yes I suppose you're correct. Perhaps "titanic" wasn't the best choice in words...
JeeperCreeper
Member
As much as I love the SD9VE, I feel like that might not be the best comparison because of how awesome old Smith's are and how not awesome the SD9VE trigger is.
Not saying it isn't a great gun, but a PPQ or VP9 or even a Canik, Glock, or XD trigger it is not....
...but again, I love the SD9VE
CoalTrain49
Member
Most DA/SA guns have a hammer, strikers don't. If you absolutely have to have a constant trigger pull you can always go to SA with a hammer cock. Takes a bit longer but if you train I bet the time would be minimal. Probably not much different than dropping the safety on a 1911. I'm not sure if anyone has a newer Sig P239 or 229 with the SRT trigger but that's a very nice SA trigger. I have both.
Proud Southern Son
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There is also a titanic benefit to carrying a DA/SA gun, assuming a person is willing to learn it. Everybody makes fun of the whole idea that NDs are more likely with Glocks, saying training will prevent this. In their next breath they indicate they are not willing to put in the time learning the DA/SA. Well, as someone who nearly caught a .45 jhp from a NG involving a Glock and a very well trained veteran officer, I call BS. When situations get really tense, and you’re on what you believe may be a two-way range, stuff happens. A certain kind of stuff happens more with striker-fired guns. I’ve been seeing it for over 25 years in LE.
As I said earlier, one of the best things about striker-fired guns is that non-enthusiasts who rarely shoot can be taught how to use them to a level that will make qualification at a police range more likely. That is the “titanic benefit” of the consistent first to last trigger pull.
Proud Southern Son
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fastbolt
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Traditional Double Action (TDA) pistols, commonly called DA/SA, can be very effectively used by folks who learn and practice a good trigger press technique for DA and SA trigger modes.
I grew up learning to shoot SA pistols and revolvers, and then added DA revolvers. The better my DA trigger press became, the better overall handgun shooter I became.
Personally, I miss the days when cops were required to learn to shoot DA revolvers in DA, and were only allowed to use a SA trigger press for a precision, longer range shot. Even then, after some unintentional shots were triggered in SA and stressful situations, with unfortunate results, a trend emerged here and there where some agencies wanted their revolvers to be DAO, so their people couldn't any longer cock them into the lighter SA mode.
When it came to the "average" revolver owner and shooter, it wasn't uncommon to see them on a target or plinking range resort to thumb-cocking the revolver into SA to shoot it, but that was seemingly because of a lack of confidence (and practiced skill?) in being able to make an accurate DA shot. Want to learn to use a DA trigger? That's a training & discipline issue.
When I was introduced to TDA pistols for work it became a matter of using my ingrained DA revolver and 1911 pistol skills to shoot them.
I remember when someone calling themselves a LE firearms instructor was able to safely and effectively use a DA revolver, a 1911 and the average TDA pistol. Nowadays? Unfortunately, it's not uncommon to hear someone calling themselves an instructor complain about a 6-8lb trigger on some plastic gun as has having too long of a trigger press, or not being "light enough", etc. Really?
Okay, I can see someone who works for an agency which only allows a specific plastic pistol having their abilities limited to only learning to use and teach using that specific pistol as issued safety equipment, but that seems to rather limit his/her ability in becoming a skilled, all-around handgunnner, let alone an instructor. Makes it kind of hard to knowledgeably help teach someone else how to use their DA/DAO revolvers, if those are authorized as off-duty and secondary weapons, don't you think?
I've heard the TDA pistol referred to as "the thinking man's gun", and to some extent I quite agree.
Then again, it's not unusual to see people content to only be able to operate their motor vehicles in non-emergency situations, only expecting to need their vehicle and normal driving skills to get them from Point A to Point B, under good conditions, without any surprises making demands upon their driving skills. It's hardly surprising that the basic (or recurrent in-service training) EVOC class/driving is sometimes difficult for newer cops, but that once trained to operate a motor vehicle under difficult, out-of-the-ordinary and emergency conditions, a better trained and skilled LE driver can become a better all-around driver.
I rather like my S&W 3rd gen pistols (9, .40 & .45), and as a S&W trained 3rd gen armorer I hope to keep them in good, operable conditions for many years to come. I still like my plastic pistols (GLocks and M&P's), 1911's and revolvers, too, and even the plastic pistols with TDA-ish and DAO function, like my SW99's and LCP's.
I grew up learning to shoot SA pistols and revolvers, and then added DA revolvers. The better my DA trigger press became, the better overall handgun shooter I became.
Personally, I miss the days when cops were required to learn to shoot DA revolvers in DA, and were only allowed to use a SA trigger press for a precision, longer range shot. Even then, after some unintentional shots were triggered in SA and stressful situations, with unfortunate results, a trend emerged here and there where some agencies wanted their revolvers to be DAO, so their people couldn't any longer cock them into the lighter SA mode.
When it came to the "average" revolver owner and shooter, it wasn't uncommon to see them on a target or plinking range resort to thumb-cocking the revolver into SA to shoot it, but that was seemingly because of a lack of confidence (and practiced skill?) in being able to make an accurate DA shot. Want to learn to use a DA trigger? That's a training & discipline issue.
When I was introduced to TDA pistols for work it became a matter of using my ingrained DA revolver and 1911 pistol skills to shoot them.
I remember when someone calling themselves a LE firearms instructor was able to safely and effectively use a DA revolver, a 1911 and the average TDA pistol. Nowadays? Unfortunately, it's not uncommon to hear someone calling themselves an instructor complain about a 6-8lb trigger on some plastic gun as has having too long of a trigger press, or not being "light enough", etc. Really?
Okay, I can see someone who works for an agency which only allows a specific plastic pistol having their abilities limited to only learning to use and teach using that specific pistol as issued safety equipment, but that seems to rather limit his/her ability in becoming a skilled, all-around handgunnner, let alone an instructor. Makes it kind of hard to knowledgeably help teach someone else how to use their DA/DAO revolvers, if those are authorized as off-duty and secondary weapons, don't you think?
I've heard the TDA pistol referred to as "the thinking man's gun", and to some extent I quite agree.
Then again, it's not unusual to see people content to only be able to operate their motor vehicles in non-emergency situations, only expecting to need their vehicle and normal driving skills to get them from Point A to Point B, under good conditions, without any surprises making demands upon their driving skills. It's hardly surprising that the basic (or recurrent in-service training) EVOC class/driving is sometimes difficult for newer cops, but that once trained to operate a motor vehicle under difficult, out-of-the-ordinary and emergency conditions, a better trained and skilled LE driver can become a better all-around driver.
I rather like my S&W 3rd gen pistols (9, .40 & .45), and as a S&W trained 3rd gen armorer I hope to keep them in good, operable conditions for many years to come. I still like my plastic pistols (GLocks and M&P's), 1911's and revolvers, too, and even the plastic pistols with TDA-ish and DAO function, like my SW99's and LCP's.
JTQ
Member
I just wanted to quote this since it is correct.
We've had people on this forum call them "Transitional Double Action" and "SA/DA". Man, that drives me nuts.
My only DA/SA is currently on its way back to Walther for repairs (. . . no, wait, my Makarov . . does it count as mine if my daughter has decided, rather unilaterally, that it is hers?).
The PK380, which is DA/SA, nearly needs to be reviewed by itself, it is a rather odd duck, even in the .380 world. Of my .380s', I definitely shoot the 1911 style pistols well. The issue with them is that there is a real dearth of holsters for them. I am not comfortable carrying a 1911 style, with no grip safety, cocked and locked with a strap between the hammer and the firing pin. As time goes on, I am becoming accustomed to it; but it is not a preferred style.
On anther thread someone asked what the people here would carry if we could just will it into being. I would go with a 1911 style .380 similar to the Government model, in DA/SA.
My reason is that I like that long initial pull. I feel a lot more comfortable carrying that way than with a <5Lb single action trigger, but that trigger on my Glock 42 is an extreme in the other direction.
The PK380, which is DA/SA, nearly needs to be reviewed by itself, it is a rather odd duck, even in the .380 world. Of my .380s', I definitely shoot the 1911 style pistols well. The issue with them is that there is a real dearth of holsters for them. I am not comfortable carrying a 1911 style, with no grip safety, cocked and locked with a strap between the hammer and the firing pin. As time goes on, I am becoming accustomed to it; but it is not a preferred style.
On anther thread someone asked what the people here would carry if we could just will it into being. I would go with a 1911 style .380 similar to the Government model, in DA/SA.
My reason is that I like that long initial pull. I feel a lot more comfortable carrying that way than with a <5Lb single action trigger, but that trigger on my Glock 42 is an extreme in the other direction.
Jeb Stuart
member
Well said. And so true. I have seen so many post over the recent years for this constant need for Light Triggers. Newbies talking about getting springs etc. to make their OEM even lighter. They want short reset etc. And they do no want to learn safeties. The Constant theme among them is "The best safety is the one between your ears" as if they alone are immune to accidents that can happen with a light trigger, or not even figure in the "Stress Factor" on a finger on a light trigger. Personally I am on for a new Single Action/Double action pistol. Or at least a trigger with a longer stronger pull.
somethingbenign
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Never heard this term before this thread. I always figured there had to be a more eloquent way to name a DA/SA.
In light of this thread and a couple others on similar topics I've been making a point of shooting at the range 90% in DA or just two quick shots the first in DA. Really eye opening how quickly I picked up DA alone but how much work I need to do on my follow up. Oddly when I shoot twice my first shot is way off and not the SA so I'm guessing that I'm anticipating too much. Guess that just means more range time.
Thanks for rehashing what I assume is an already beat to death conversation if only so this young buck got a few new ideas.
Proud Southern Son
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I refer to them as DA/SA on most forums because, inevitably, calling them DA or TDA will require an explanation further down the line. In conversation, I just call them double action automatics, like we did in the eighties and nineties. That still often requires an explanation, especially if a younger shooter is involved.
I use the same pair on occasion but didn't realize a clip was available for the Pico, I'll have to check it out. Does that stick on type work very well? My Pico probably hasn't seen as many rounds as yours. How's it holding up? There were few positive reviews available when mine was purchased.
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