Setting OAL just off the lands

D.B. Cooper said:

is there an easier way to do this going from projectile to projectile?

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Just off hand ogives?

Place a wood dowl down the barrel and rest it on the closed bolt face, mark the dowl at the muzzel. ( I use a razor blade laid flat on the barrel)
place a bullet of the type your reloading into the chamber and lightly press it against the rifleing. (I use a pencil). Slide the dowl gently back down
the barrel until it rests against the tip of the bullet. Mark the dowl at the muzzel again. Measure the distance between the two marks on the dowl.
(I use Dial Caliper)
This measurement will be the AOL of Your cartridge with the bullet touching the lands, If You want the bullet 5 thousands off the lands, just subtract 5 thousands off the measurement and load your cartidges to that length.

Good Shooting

Lindy

It varies with rifle, bullet and powder.
The last .243 I had wanted the bullet (Sierra 100gr GK) at the SAAMI recommended 2.650" oal. Touching the lands didn't help accuracy but ran pressures way up. It was profoundly accurate with a Hornady 65 gr Vmax over a max load of IMR4064 for 3,700fps chrono'd from a 22"bbl (Savage Axis).

A Savage 200 wanted bullets jammed into the grooves with RL22. Bullets from same two boxes. But different powder preference.

My .260Rem Remington M7 wants bullets hard seated into lands, and powder charges dropped by 2gr, but gives exquisite accuracy and 22-24" bbl velocities. Same for a Rem7 in 7mm08, except it's not particularly accurate but velocities are nearly off the chart fast. Pressures commiserate -nominal with powder charges. Perhaps my favorite hunting rifle... It exemplifies everything Jack and Eleanor O'Conner idealized in a custom rifle...light, strong, easy-quick handling/pointing, positive killing power, modest recoil, beautiful to look at, but not too much to take hunting...and it's a "lucky" rifle, too; a rare combination!

Just a note, don't seat the bullet too far out of the case. Unless you have one caliber length of the bullet in the neck you might not have enough neck tension on the bullet to be sure it's secure. Accuracy will suffer greatly and easily negate any advantage gained from seating just off the rifling.

D.B.Cooper wrote:
I'm working on setting the OAL length such that the bullet, when chambered, is just off the lands.

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Why?

This video does a good job explaining the process.

Some good info here;
http://www.bergerbullets.com/vld-making-shoot/

ms6852 said:

This video does a good job explaining the process.

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That’s probably the best way I’ve seen to do it

D.B. Cooper said:

I'm setting up the dies for my 243 Win bolt gun. I'm working on setting the OAL length such that the bullet, when chambered, is just off the lands. I started out with the bullet barely in the case mouth and gradually turned the adjusting screw on the Lee Dead Length die until I got it down to what Lyman's says should be max OAL (2.71") From there, I painted the bullet with black marker and chambered the dummy round, ejected, and inspected for nicks in the black coloring. Then I turned down the bullet seater some more and repeated the whole process.

Am I doing this right? I "think" this is how I remember doing it for this gun 20 years ago, but I also seem to recall some method that involved putting a cleaning rod down the barrel with a round in the chamber and making some measurements.

What I've ended up with thus far is an 80 grain Speer Spitzer (flat base, soft point) with just a slight nick in the paint and an OAL of 2.696" (Lyman's says that projectile should be seated to 2.655" OAL.)

I suspect this is just a starting point. Is there anything else I should do here before I start loading cartridges?

Also, I have several different projectile weights; is there an easier way to do this going from projectile to projectile?

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Good advice/knowledge in this thread about not loading a bullet that is not at least one bullet diameter into the neck. So, IF you eventually decide to continue doing it this way, start there so the bullet will be adequately supported.

Every change of bullet brand/type/weight requires re-measurement. Bullet lot change should be at least considered as a factor.

The way you are doing this is likely making marks/grooves on the bullet, which can change your readings from read to read. It all depends upon how finite you need and want your measurements to be, but a simple change in technique should be considered.

If you do not want to buy tools cited below, then what you are doing will work, taking note of what I have suggested herein. However, If you accidentally seat the bullet too deep you have to start over. Better to use tools. My experience has shown that one should keep the ends of the lands clean between measurements or the magic marker will throw off readings because it builds up on the tips of your lands. You should also clean the bore before firing for same reason.

You said "ejected". Using the bolt to push the bullet ahead is not advised. There are various ways to do this and feel free to ask should you proceed doing it this way. You are looking for a point where you just feel the bullet touch the lands. The extractor interferes with a sensitive touch feel.

Keep in mind that any mark left on the bullet from using magic marker is an indicator that you already have jam, albeit slight - keeping in mind that I shoot solely for accuracy, where every factor needs to be addressed. Key is finding the lands and using your seater die to get jam or jump.

OAL, for the reloader's purposes, relates primarily to what will feed through your magazine, if using one. SAAMI specs are written in such a way that in following them, the loads will fire in any known firearm in their database. Precision bench shooters often shoot either single shot rifles or feed singly for several reasons-one of which is that their COAL is too long to feed through the magazine because they are extending the bullet out beyond SAAMI specs in order to get the jam/jump they are wanting . If you are shooting a Howa or Weatherby, things are different but I will assume you are not so will not address

Shooters typically find the lands and work both jump and jam from there, depending upon the results from their barrel, bullet, load, etc. when shooting ladder loads to find optimal accuracy loads. So finding your just "nick" with a marker is one way. The Hornady gauge:

https://www.ebay.com/p/Hornady-Lock-N-Load-Overall-Length-Gauge-straight/2255374290?iid=222651569512

is well suited for doing what you are doing. If you choose not to get one, I would use a wooden dowel, to avoid possibility of damaging the crown, which is, of course, the last thing the bullet sees. My experience tells me to clean the ends of the throat and lands well so you get a true reading that does not change from session to session as much. And, you don't want the ink to bake in the throat. However, do remember to recalculate when changing lot numbers and types/brands of bullets and at intervals of at least every several hundred rounds because the throat will erode, resulting in the need to grow your OAL. Not recalculating when changing bullets can result in serious pressure issues.

Buying a "modified case" for each of your calibers would be advised. Cabelas has them. Coupled with the Hornady gauge this setup will help you a great deal, whether you add more equipment or not. The necks are slightly oversized for the caliber, so when the bullet touches the lands you can lock the tool, remove it and measure you OAL. This is a good investment, as are those referenced below but not everyone wants to purchase them so I am presenting both options. I would suggest you go to Youtube.com and watch a few videos of these tools in use.

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Horn...-A-L-Gauge-Modified-Cases/731927.uts?slotId=0

After you find your lands and make whatever jam/jump changes you want, it is advisable to measure from the ogive of the bullet rather than COAL and record this. As I mention elsewhere, this reading will change as the throat erodes, which it will.

http://pacifictoolandgauge.com/sear...rway=desc&search_query=746974+&submit_search=

This bullet comparator nut comes in two different types, with a mix of caliber sizes on each of the two...so read carefully if you purchase, there are two from PTG and other companies use different assortment of bore diameters. If you get more than one, I would not use them interchangeably even though they have the same bore holes because they are not precision and will vary slightly, one from the other. Available through midwayusa.com, others as well. Rather than expound, please do look at them on line and see how these tools, along with a caliper, will make what you are doing so much easier.

Recording this number for each bullet type/brand/weight will be useful. If you want more info, please ask. I am sure I omitted something but do hope I at least answered your initial questions. Welcome to reloading! Good to have you aboard.

If you keep me advised as to the route you want to go...
Always here to help.

D.B. Cooper said:

I'm setting up the dies for my 243 Win bolt gun. I'm working on setting the OAL length such that the bullet, when chambered, is just off the lands. I started out with the bullet barely in the case mouth and gradually turned the adjusting screw on the Lee Dead Length die until I got it down to what Lyman's says should be max OAL (2.71") From there, I painted the bullet with black marker and chambered the dummy round, ejected, and inspected for nicks in the black coloring. Then I turned down the bullet seater some more and repeated the whole process.

Am I doing this right? I "think" this is how I remember doing it for this gun 20 years ago, but I also seem to recall some method that involved putting a cleaning rod down the barrel with a round in the chamber and making some measurements.

What I've ended up with thus far is an 80 grain Speer Spitzer (flat base, soft point) with just a slight nick in the paint and an OAL of 2.696" (Lyman's says that projectile should be seated to 2.655" OAL.)

I suspect this is just a starting point. Is there anything else I should do here before I start loading cartridges?

Also, I have several different projectile weights; is there an easier way to do this going from projectile to projectile?

Click to expand...

Just saw a Youtube posted by Natureboy in this thread that is well made, should you choose the route. It really is idea to do it this way.

Nature Boy said:

That’s probably the best way I’ve seen to do it

Click to expand...

Kudos Nature Boy.

D.B. Cooper said:

...Also, I have several different projectile weights; is there an easier way to do this going from projectile to projectile?

Click to expand...

Once you had determined the "touch-point" OAL you can use a comparator (Stoneypoint or Hornady makes them) to get the overall length to the ogive. This measurement can then be translated to any other bullet brand, shape or weight.

One thing to note, hunting bullets from the same box often have a small variance from base to ogive. The comparator can check that quality for you also. Match bullets should come close to zero variance. The video of the guy using the vice & a stripped bolt is the best method I've ever seen also. I believe his statement that it's 100% repeatable. But given all the variables involved, the wood dowel with razor blade marks in conjunction with a comparator is the most practical approach. Remember, the number changes as the throat erodes also.

FWIW...

Even bullets of the same manufacturer with the same catalog number will have some variance in ogive dimension. I've observed a range of .003"-.005" to be common within a box. From lot to lot, there can be substantially more variance than that. The best way to set your process up is to determine the bolt face to land distance, and load all your cartridges to what I call the Cartridge Ogive Length. This would include the backspacing from the lands (bullet jump). At a minimum, you'll need a Bullet Comparator and a dial caliper to check this distance. Without one, I'd add another few thousandths of jump to the number you determine to be conservative.

The base-to-tip Cartridge Overall Length doesn't do you much good except to be sure you aren't likely to jam any bullet into the lands under any circumstances, and that the cartridge will load into any magazine.

I've never use the bolt the bolt to run the bullet in. I always push it in by hand. Then tilt the gun for it to be remove. This is based on fire formed brass. If you size the brass back 0.001-0.003" you need to add that back into the number for a actual number. If your contacting the bullet will prevent the it from falling free. I would suggest once you think you have your number is to test it with a couple more bullets. Remember if you change lots or go to a different bullet it will/change. How much depends on how consistent the mfg is making the lots as close to the same as they can.

The video is good but remember once you put the ejector back in, depending on how the brass was sized it will move it forward a 0.001 or 0.002 depending on how much shoulder jump you have. Ans also these guys shoot the custom made match guns have very tight chambers compared to a production gun.

Blue68f100 said:

I've never use the bolt the bolt to run the bullet in. I always push it in by hand. Then tilt the gun for it to be remove. This is based on fire formed brass. If you size the brass back 0.001-0.003" you need to add that back into the number for a actual number. If your contacting the bullet will prevent the it from falling free. I would suggest once you think you have your number is to test it with a couple more bullets. Remember if you change lots or go to a different bullet it will/change. How much depends on how consistent the mfg is making the lots as close to the same as they can.

The video is good but remember once you put the ejector back in, depending on how the brass was sized it will move it forward a 0.001 or 0.002 depending on how much shoulder jump you have. Ans also these guys shoot the custom made match guns have very tight chambers compared to a production gun.

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Roger that on tight chamber shooters. Suggestions from us come from that approach and others may disagree because their application differs.

Regarding using the bolt-nope, I don't do it when finding lands. I use the LNL w/modified case, press the bullet in just until it touches. Then I use a dowel to see-saw back and forth until I find the point where the lands do not bite the bullet at all. My experience has been that you can take multiple readings with most of them being different, so the inclination is to average them. Not fond of that, hence my approach. At least one is not moving the tool each time and increasing the chance that some dimension is changing. Just my personal technique.

Using the bolt with extractor removed makes sense when testing fit of finished cartridge, IMO. Cross checks have sometimes saved me from pulling VLDs with an inertia hammer.

Lots of good information above. I have found the EASIEST way to get the measurement you need is to spend the $20+ bucks for a Hornady gauge and the correct threaded case for your caliber. It's not complicated.

That being said, I have mostly stopped messing with this measurement and load to the recommended OAL for whatever bullet I am using. Factory rounds are loaded to a standard spec and I believe there are many other factors that affect your point of impact more than messing with thousandths of an inch applied to bullet seating... just my (free!) advice and perhaps worth what you paid for it!)

FWIW, I used the method you chose, i.e., the Hornady OAL gauge and comparator. After much testing, I ended up seating my 60g. .224" Sierra bullet .020" off the lands and now get consistent results from my Howa 1500. My only advice is measure, measure, and measure again. Be sure your measurement of the bullet touching the lands is consistent in multiple measurements before backing the bullet off for range tests. You can also use the Magic Marker test to ensure that your "final" OAL does not have the bullet touching. This will not tell you how far off the lands you are, only that your bullet is not touching, so as to avoid any nasty pressure spikes. Good luck!

D.B. Cooper said:

...is there a certain distance off the lands than that is considered optimal or...

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...that's the $64,000 question, for sure. IMHO it's all about start pressure, and with a target rifle using slow powder and thin-jacketed bullets I've found I can actually use the extra pressure to deform the bullet right away. But it can be overdone and I believe max load data is based on bullets seated a good .030" off the lands for safety with harder bullets.

I take a case cut a slit in the neck with a dremel so it doesn’t have much tension. Then barely seat a bullet in it and carefully chamber it and remove it. Measure it and there you go. Do that with every bullet you intend to use. I shoot for .010-.020 short of that distance.
You’ll find some guns that you cannot get the bullet long enough and still fit the magazine, etc. watch for pressure. If your too tight you can quickly over pressure. Be especially careful if your cases have variable neck tension because your length can vary a bunch.

D.B. Cooper said:

is there a certain distance off the lands than that is considered optimal or does it vary gun to gun and caliber to caliber?

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My experience is that some rifles exhibit extreme sensitivity to bullet jump. All of them will have a sweet spot. I always start with a conservative jump for laddering powder to an accuracy node. THEN I move to the minimum safe distance off the lands (assuming the cartridge will load in the magazine) and start another ladder using a constant powder charge. Progressively back the bullet away from the lands in increments of several thousandths to find the optimal jump for that bullet in that rifle.

ms6852 said:

This video does a good job explaining the process.

Click to expand...

I used this very method. It was consistent, the Hornady tools required really getting used too.

Russellc