SIG M17 Jamomatic!

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The Army set out to find a solution to a problem that didn't exist in the 1980's. Looks like they're up to it again.

What percentage of Army troops are even issued a sidearm?
Part of their justification was having more guns in inventory for the same money, thus allowing more widespread issue. If it actually works out that way, well........we shall see.
 
That's an odd publication, or website. Part of it's a car magazine and another section is for articles on the military. You click on the logo and it takes you to the vehicle section for an odd collection of articles from folks you never heard of. Then the military section.

I'm skeptical of weird publications, well in this case a web magazine.
 
You've got that part right.

What the hell do my tax dollars have to do with criticizing the pistol in question? You think since I pay my taxes I can't talk about problems with the new M17?

Get out of here with your bad attitude. This is a GUN FORUM. We talk about GUNS here. Don't post on someones thread and act like a jerk for no good reason at all.
 
I'm wondering what the issue is between these and the standard 320s. To my knowledge, the 320 isn't known for being problematic. Mine has been 100% over hundreds of rounds both before and after the trigger upgrade.

I guess time will tell what the problem is.
 
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106 million reasons why they didn't go with glock. That's a huge chunk of change for us tax payers

And how much will the tax payer be on the hook for with the m17? Not a huge difference especially if they need to select another gun now.
 
Looking at the pics of Army dudes with the new pistols....it sure looks like they're holding them in what we'd term 'limply'. The Nato Ball ammo is pretty hot stuff...so perhaps the difficulties with it are due to the more snappy recoil vs the HP's.

Wonder if they actually broke down WHO was having the malfunctions....or just that they happened? Willing to bet that many shooters had no problems at all and most of the malfunctions were concentrated among certain people, but of course in the Modern Army we can't single out anyone who might be deficient (because they might feel bad) so the blame goes to the weapon.

Does this remind anyone of Sig and the NJ State Police? They had problems with malfunctions but from what I've read it was only certain people who just couldn't shoot the guns with the ammo being supplied. Most had no problems whatsoever...but again rather than singling out the misfits who were having the problems they blame the machine.
 
Looking at the pics of Army dudes with the new pistols....it sure looks like they're holding them in what we'd term 'limply'. The Nato Ball ammo is pretty hot stuff...so perhaps the difficulties with it are due to the more snappy recoil vs the HP's.

Wonder if they actually broke down WHO was having the malfunctions....or just that they happened? Willing to bet that many shooters had no problems at all and most of the malfunctions were concentrated among certain people, but of course in the Modern Army we can't single out anyone who might be deficient (because they might feel bad) so the blame goes to the weapon.

Does this remind anyone of Sig and the NJ State Police? They had problems with malfunctions but from what I've read it was only certain people who just couldn't shoot the guns with the ammo being supplied. Most had no problems whatsoever...but again rather than singling out the misfits who were having the problems they blame the machine.

It could be part of the case but 95% reliability with hollowpoints and 75% with ball leads me to believe it ain't the shooters as a whole.

Wonder if the training ball is varnished or something, maybe the same ammo the NJ PD used...
 
Much of the articles are the same kind of journalism which has surrounded the M16 and M4 for decades.

First, the drop safety issues related in the first article are about the SIG P320s - not the M17 which is equipped with a different trigger and which is the one being retrofitted on customer P320's under a VOLUNTARY recall. Lets not forget it won't happen if you don't fumble the gun and drop it, much less it has to hit the exact orientation to do it. The M17 wasn't reported to have that problem and still isn't - go check - you are reading very poor journalism which is pretending to be "factual." If anything most of it is old news reported before the contract started shipping.

If Glock wanted the contract they could have bid it and got it. They didn't. Get over it. They deliberately bid it too high. Why? The contract was not just for guns, it involves spare parts, training, holsters, and ammunition as a package, and SIG didn't win it, the larger bidder did using SIG's gun. That contractor is supply it all per the mandatory terms. Apparently Glock couldn't negotiate competitive terms for all the gear, training, and ammo to compete. Thing about that - they failed to underbid in a market where they rarely failed before.

One feature required of the contract was different sized grips - and the Glock method of molding the interior metal frame prohibits doing it. Gun design is a moving target, and the removable serial numbered trigger is where they were found to be deficient. They can't do different sized frames when every frame they make is another serial numbered gun. That is a major complication.

And despite the general consensus among new shooters who have only recently arrived on the firearms scene, Glocks have their issues, too. "They always go bang" is popular misconception. If it were true, the thousands of Glock armorers would have nothing to do, ever. In reality, if you push them as a fleet you discover various generations with retrofit parts needed to survive service as the originals were found deficient. Run them 100,000 rounds a year the way some rental ranges in Vegas operate and certain models will crack under the ejection port.

It's not that Glock is a poor pistol but assuming it's invincible and proof to anything is just as ignorant as stating the 1911A1 is perfect and no substitution will do. We have arrived with the Glock generation displacing the 1911 gunners - the aftermarket shows much the same developement - but that doesn't mean they are leading edge designs for the future. What it means is they have been on the market since the 1980's and there's a lot of folks who have depended on them. That alone does not make them perfect, but arguing the point is like arguing with 1911 fans.

The reality is all this has been done in the past - in 1954 - when the Army took a long look at the 1911 and found it as a design to be deficient. It was too big, heavy, and had too much recoil for the average user. They released a specification for a 4" barreled DA/SA in 9mm similar to the Walther P38, which was held in high regard at that time. Having over 3.2 million 1911's and living in a post war political environment, they decided to kick the can down the road.

When they finally had to replace an aging fleet of ancient rebuilt pistols what did they choose? The M9 - a Walther derivative which was McArmyized into a large frame doublestack 9mm. The reality of that contract award had the Meditterean refueling and airborne brigade stationed in Italy as one of the background cards played. Open fact in military circles, but, not reported in the gun press or MSM at the time. Glock didn't even attempt to compete as it came too soon for them - they simply weren't big enough with no plant in the USA.

Now Glock is still can't compete and like the era where the M9 came into issue the fans are all wondering why something other than their favorite was chosen. Then it was all about the 1911 in .45ACP being the hands down superior choice - yet, it wasn't. Today it's all about the Glock being the hands down superior choice - yet they didn't bid the contract to win it. Much like S&W coming into the post war competition late to the game with their M39, the rules were right out there. Nobody got a contract in 1954, no 1911 got a contract in 1984, no Glock got the contract last year.

Sorry your gun lost.

BTW, I own a S&W 4566TSW. That is one of the guns that pushed the revolver out of the holsters of American LEO's and paved the way for Glock to exploit the market. It wasn't Glock that did it, it was S&W with their 1954 Army Trials design that did it. The public is just slow to accept things, and Glock has missed it too early and too late. We never really adopted the Browning Hipower, either, a much heralded and better gun than the 1911, Browning's hereditary successor. So goes life.
 
Much of the articles are the same kind of journalism which has surrounded the M16 and M4 for decades.

First, the drop safety issues related in the first article are about the SIG P320s - not the M17 which is equipped with a different trigger and which is the one being retrofitted on customer P320's under a VOLUNTARY recall. Lets not forget it won't happen if you don't fumble the gun and drop it, much less it has to hit the exact orientation to do it. The M17 wasn't reported to have that problem and still isn't - go check - you are reading very poor journalism which is pretending to be "factual." If anything most of it is old news reported before the contract started shipping.

If Glock wanted the contract they could have bid it and got it. They didn't. Get over it. They deliberately bid it too high. Why? The contract was not just for guns, it involves spare parts, training, holsters, and ammunition as a package, and SIG didn't win it, the larger bidder did using SIG's gun. That contractor is supply it all per the mandatory terms. Apparently Glock couldn't negotiate competitive terms for all the gear, training, and ammo to compete. Thing about that - they failed to underbid in a market where they rarely failed before.

One feature required of the contract was different sized grips - and the Glock method of molding the interior metal frame prohibits doing it. Gun design is a moving target, and the removable serial numbered trigger is where they were found to be deficient. They can't do different sized frames when every frame they make is another serial numbered gun. That is a major complication.

And despite the general consensus among new shooters who have only recently arrived on the firearms scene, Glocks have their issues, too. "They always go bang" is popular misconception. If it were true, the thousands of Glock armorers would have nothing to do, ever. In reality, if you push them as a fleet you discover various generations with retrofit parts needed to survive service as the originals were found deficient. Run them 100,000 rounds a year the way some rental ranges in Vegas operate and certain models will crack under the ejection port.

It's not that Glock is a poor pistol but assuming it's invincible and proof to anything is just as ignorant as stating the 1911A1 is perfect and no substitution will do. We have arrived with the Glock generation displacing the 1911 gunners - the aftermarket shows much the same developement - but that doesn't mean they are leading edge designs for the future. What it means is they have been on the market since the 1980's and there's a lot of folks who have depended on them. That alone does not make them perfect, but arguing the point is like arguing with 1911 fans.

The reality is all this has been done in the past - in 1954 - when the Army took a long look at the 1911 and found it as a design to be deficient. It was too big, heavy, and had too much recoil for the average user. They released a specification for a 4" barreled DA/SA in 9mm similar to the Walther P38, which was held in high regard at that time. Having over 3.2 million 1911's and living in a post war political environment, they decided to kick the can down the road.

When they finally had to replace an aging fleet of ancient rebuilt pistols what did they choose? The M9 - a Walther derivative which was McArmyized into a large frame doublestack 9mm. The reality of that contract award had the Meditterean refueling and airborne brigade stationed in Italy as one of the background cards played. Open fact in military circles, but, not reported in the gun press or MSM at the time. Glock didn't even attempt to compete as it came too soon for them - they simply weren't big enough with no plant in the USA.

Now Glock is still can't compete and like the era where the M9 came into issue the fans are all wondering why something other than their favorite was chosen. Then it was all about the 1911 in .45ACP being the hands down superior choice - yet, it wasn't. Today it's all about the Glock being the hands down superior choice - yet they didn't bid the contract to win it. Much like S&W coming into the post war competition late to the game with their M39, the rules were right out there. Nobody got a contract in 1954, no 1911 got a contract in 1984, no Glock got the contract last year.

Sorry your gun lost.

BTW, I own a S&W 4566TSW. That is one of the guns that pushed the revolver out of the holsters of American LEO's and paved the way for Glock to exploit the market. It wasn't Glock that did it, it was S&W with their 1954 Army Trials design that did it. The public is just slow to accept things, and Glock has missed it too early and too late. We never really adopted the Browning Hipower, either, a much heralded and better gun than the 1911, Browning's hereditary successor. So goes life.
Every Glock having 0% reliability would not change the issues with the M17.
 
What the hell do my tax dollars have to do with criticizing the pistol in question? You think since I pay my taxes I can't talk about problems with the new M17?

Get out of here with your bad attitude. This is a GUN FORUM. We talk about GUNS here. Don't post on someones thread and act like a jerk for no good reason at all.

Anger management, pal.;)
 
It's worthwhile to read the DOT&E report on the XM17/XM18. It's on the link below just scroll down to the bottom of the list of reports.

http://www.dote.osd.mil/pub/reports/FY2017/

A reminder that this is the first annual report on these pistols and the new ammo for them. Some problems were encountered and several recommendations were made. Simple ones for the most part. This is not unusual. Happened with every arm chosen by the military in the past, some more than others.

From the report, page 3:

"The predominant cause of stoppages was the failure of the slide to lock (FSLR) after the firing of the last round in the magazine (60 of 120 stoppages for the XM17 and 63 of 85 stoppages for the XM18). The purpose of the slide locking to the rear is to inform the operator that the last round has been expended, and that the operator needs to reload a magazine into the weapon. Operators who are trained in pistol qualification, as taught by the Army marksmanship unit, utilize what is known as a high pistol grip. This grip places the non-dominant hand along the pistol slide on top of the slide catch lever. Many operators stated that the placement of the slide catch lever caused them to engage it while firing the pistol, which resulted in the slide not locking to the rear when the last round was expended in a magazine. Sixty percent of all FSLR stoppages (75 of 123) were experienced by 8 shooters out of the 132 who participated in the IOT&E"

The AMU thought it was a matter of training but a slight modification of the slide lock may help prevent this slide stoppage caused by 8 out of 132 shooters.

IIRC Glock did not complain that the Sigs were not tested or not up to snuff. They, Glock, argued that the protocol called for head to head endurance testing of these two pistols side by side. The military answered, after having spent many millions of dollars on testing and evaluation over several years, that there was no legal requirement for head to head testing and that they were satisfied in their choice. As I recall it.

Just a reminder neither of these guns could be bought "off the shelf". They were developed for the military's protocols. The same is true for the Glock. It is quite different internally from previous guns, from action to barrel. They built a new gun for these tests, quite different from previous Glocks.

tipoc
 
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Tirod nailed it.

Simple fact is "Glock Perfection" isn't. I've been shooting since 1960 and as many times as I've tried Glocks they either never got bought or got bought and sold in a month. They don't fit my hand; unless you invest a ton in sights, triggers and other stuff they are average at best; and I'm not in love with their original business model of essentially buying their way into the LEO market with sold-at-a-loss bids and other stuff. The gun wasn't necessarily better but clearly their business model was.

I've got a Sig 320 and it works just fine. And so do my other Sigs (plastic and metal), M&Ps, Walthers, and old-school Smiths. I guess Glocks are good guns, but I am weary of the fan-boys beating down everything that isn't. My Walther P5 is 10x the gun as Glock is....and yeah, it cost more...but both my P99AS and Q are, for me, twice the guns of a Glock, and it don't.
 
It's worthwhile to read the DOT&E report on the XM17/XM18. It's on the link below just scroll down to the bottom of the list of reports.

http://www.dote.osd.mil/pub/reports/FY2017/

A reminder that this is the first annual report on these pistols and the new ammo for them. Some problems were encountered and several recommendations were made. Simple ones for the most part. This is not unusual. Happened with every arm chosen by the military in the past, some more than others.

From the report, page 3:

"The predominant cause of stoppages was the failure of the slide to lock (FSLR) after the firing of the last round in the magazine (60 of 120 stoppages for the XM17 and 63 of 85 stoppages for the XM18). The purpose of the slide locking to the rear is to inform the operator that the last round has been expended, and that the operator needs to reload a magazine into the weapon. Operators who are trained in pistol qualification, as taught by the Army marksmanship unit, utilize what is known as a high pistol grip. This grip places the non-dominant hand along the pistol slide on top of the slide catch lever. Many operators stated that the placement of the slide catch lever caused them to engage it while firing the pistol, which resulted in the slide not locking to the rear when the last round was expended in a magazine. Sixty percent of all FSLR stoppages (75 of 123) were experienced by 8 shooters out of the 132 who participated in the IOT&E"

The AMU thought it was a matter of training but a slight modification of the slide lock may help prevent this slide stoppage caused by 8 out of 132 shooters.

IIRC Glock did not complain that the Sigs were not tested or not up to snuff. They, Glock, argued that the protocol called for head to head endurance testing of these two pistols side by side. The military answered, after having spent many millions of dollars on testing and evaluation over several years, that there was no legal requirement for head to head testing and that they were satisfied in their choice. As I recall it.

Just a reminder neither of these guns could be bought "off the shelf". They were developed for the military's protocols. The same is true for the Glock. It is quite different internally from previous guns, from action to barrel. They built a new gun for these tests, quite different from previous Glocks.

tipoc
Excellent post!

I just wanted to say, regarding the "off the shelf" statement in you last post that may/may not have been in response to my previous comment on that they should have purchased off the shelf.

As cool as all the "next gen" battle pistols are (including the beretta, fn, ruger, as well as sig and glock), I think they should have gone with a known entity.

The Sig and Glock may not be the exact same gun that you can buy from your LGS, but they are very close and "tweaked". Now that's common knowledge, but my opinion is that those tweaks will cause growing pains as evidenced by these reports.

But then again, I'm not in any position to make these calls, but I would have just ordered 300,000 glock 19's or m&P's or whatever. You know what you're getting at that point and there should be no surprises.
 
The contract isn't just for the pistols, is it? If it were, it's a no-brainer to order a boxcar or two full a Glocks or 226s or M&Ps or Hi Points. But didn't the Army want training, spare parts (lots of 'em), and a whole bunch of other stuff? And wasn't the idea to have a modular design so they could just replace all the working parts instead of having to rebuild 'em one-by-one like they had to with 1911s, Glocks or even P-series Sigs or M&Ps? Seems to me the decision wasn't just this gun or that gun...but a bunch more. Or have I missed the details?
 
I have a P320C and I like it but I'm getting tired of the new revelations about how Sig knew about these problems and did nothing.
Oh, sure, they fixed the military trigger stop the drop-safe problems but commercial units....meh.

I am a little surprised about some of the malfunctions described. Ejecting live rounds? The F....?

Feeling like I should have just bought a Glock and been done with it.
 
Pretty funny a lot of you guys sound like the snowflakes after Trump was elected.LOL
 
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