Powder burn rate vs speed

Johnny's reloading bench on YouTube has a video series on cloning black hills MK262 556 ammo. He's pushing a 77gr Match King at 2766fps with AA2520. But he's over list max.

He has 224 valkyie videos too.

Walkalong said:

Be wary of non tested data on the net.

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Very wary!

Walkalong said:

Be wary of non tested data on the net.

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Also be weary of his figures.
While I commend him on having a reloading channel, if I’m not mistaken he’s the guy with sloppy testing practices. Nothing I think would get anyone hurt, but not results I’d take as gospel.

Plus he talks and talks and talks and talks.

If he’d shorten his videos and do testing that was a bit more scientific I’d probably spend more time watching his channel. As it is, just hearing his name I feel like I’m in for a longgggggg boring video.

Oh yea and never trust anyone’s load data! ALWAYS VERIFIY

Tinybob said:

Very wary!

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What’s that?

Are you saying we should be double check ALL LOAD DATA?

I personally like when others post their load data. Not because I’m going to use it, but because the more similar numbers I see it makes it easier for me to pick out something that is unusual. Or some reason I’m really good and pattern recognition.

Anyway, I personally always verify any load I’m using. For a few min, it just seems like a good safety check.

Hokie_PhD said:

What’s that?

Are you saying we should be double check ALL LOAD DATA?

I personally like when others post their load data. Not because I’m going to use it, but because the more similar numbers I see it makes it easier for me to pick out something that is unusual. Or some reason I’m really good and pattern recognition.

Anyway, I personally always verify any load I’m using. For a few min, it just seems like a good safety check.

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I was just agreeing about not taking something online not being "gospel".

Tinybob said:

I was just agreeing about not taking something online not being "gospel".

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I know. I wasn't picking on you

Just trying to have a little fun with this and beat the point hard for anyone new. I think sometimes we get hung up on worrying about load data online, but we forget that there have been very rare cases of data having a typo in a manual. So just trying to make the point in a way that gets it across but it's too dry.

farmerboy78 said:

Ok some of you more experienced reloaders out there, I have a 224 valkyrie and reloads are underperforming for the speeds I am sure it should hit. So my question is, what powders will give the most velocity in .223, 22 nosler, 6.8 spc, 6.5 grendel, and any other similar sized cases? To this point I have tried tac, varget, h4350... I have not yet ran the varget and h4350 loads over a chrony, but I'm getting 2880 with tac...
I was thinking cfe 223 or reloaded 15, any suggestions?

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Id be interested in Varget. H4350 might be too slow to actually get the velocity you are looking for unless you have a 20+" barrel. Id give CFE 223 a try, similar to Varget in burn rate, but much more dense because its a ball powder. I know that guys have pretty good luck with 8208 XBR in 6.5 Grendel, so that might be worth a look too. Even though the 224 Valk case is bigger, its still not as big as say a 308, so finer powders should give you more dense loads, which in turn should produce better velocity. Varget and H4350 are not very fine powders.

Walkalong said:

The slower powders, assuming you can fit enough in the case, will give better velocities. You'll know when the powder is too slow/and or bulky, you'll run out of room with poor velocity. The load books generally do that for us though.

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Barrel length also plays into this. Slower powders need longer barrels to reach full velocity potential. All things being equal, you should see higher velocity from slower powders in longer barrels. You see this issue alot with guys that load for an AR with Varget with a 14.5" barrel, unburned powder, poor velocity, etc. They switch to a faster powder and the problem is resolved.

farmerboy78 said:

Well let me clarify a little. My barrel is 24" long. I'm not new to reloading, but I'm not familiar with alot of powders for this case capacity. I load tested the powders I mentioned because they are what I had on hand. I was really seeing pressure @ 25gr varget and 26.2gr h4350. I began seeing pressure right @ my tac load of 25.4gr @ 2880fps. My accuracy load for varget was around 21.5gr and h4350 was around 25.9gr. The tac load is very accurate, just want to pick up some speed with the accuracy node.

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Totally understandable to have that goal. You do not build or buy a hotrod calibered rifle to go slow
You certainly have enough barrel to get the velocities you are seeking at 24". Varget might do it for you, but if you are seeking more velocity you need to increase the charge, and if the case is full, you need to increase the load density. To do that you either need to run compressed, or use a powder that allows you to get more in the case. This is why I suggested 8208 and CFE 223. 8208 has about the same burn rate as TAC, but is a very short cut extruded. Also very comparable to the 4895s in burn rate. Probably not as dense of a load as TAC which is ball, but still a great powder, and I stand by it as one of my favorites. CFE 223 is a ball powder with about the same burn rate as Varget, but is much more dense due to it being a ball powder. In 223 you can almost always get more velocity from CFE223 than you can from Varget.

I wish Hodgon would put out some load data for the 224 Valk so we could compare powders a little more objectively. Ive looked at the loads for 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 SPC, and honestly the load data Hodgdon has is incredibly incomplete, and 8208 XBR is the slowest powder they have listed. Being that 6.5 and 6.8 is somewhat comparable in case size, one would assume that with some testing, you could use the same powders.

Power Pro(TM) 2000-MR should give the best velocities at safe pressures in 224 Valkyrie.
Attached is data for two bullets with our relevant powders. I didn't test Reloder(R) 17, but I think Sierra obtained good results with the 90gr MatchKing.
Shoot well,
Paul

I'm curious, if you found very accurate loads that are just little slower than you feel they should be why do you want more velocity?

I have a .223 Rem load that is not quite as fast as most loads but it's extremely accurate in my bolt action rifle. I can deal with a little less velocity for such accuracy. If course you could have a good reason, I'm just curious why?

As long as you have a barrel - meaning it's not some pepperbox where the muzzle is the end of the throat - slower powders will give faster velocities in any length barrel. The whole, "slower powders for longer barrels" thing is a myth. You do gain more in a longer barrel, but you gain no matter what. The only deviation to that rule is the burn rate which finally doesn't fit enough powder in the case to burn... I BADLY want H1000 to run fast in 6 creed to give me a little better barrel life, but compressing the hell out of it, I still look like I'm shooting a blackpowder musket, and I'm 200fps slower than H4350...

As a rule of thumb, if I find something in 223/5.56 I can't do with Varget, then I know I'm doing something wrong. Benchmark is my go-to in 6.8, and 8208 in Grendel.

I'll say firmly, I'll do a 6mm AR, Turbo, Fat Rat, or 243 LBC before I get suckered into a Nosler or Valkyrie. I've been throwing 80 & 90 grain 22 cal pills long distances for a long time, out of fast twist 22-250, 223AI, and 22-243's, and I've seen what I can do with a 6mm vs. a 22cal bullet first hand. Any time a guy pushes a 22cal fast enough to trump a 6mm, you start talking about triple digit barrel life, and while that works for some folks, I'd rather keep a barrel more than half a season.

Varminterror said:

As long as you have a barrel - meaning it's not some pepperbox where the muzzle is the end of the throat - slower powders will give faster velocities in any length barrel. The whole, "slower powders for longer barrels" thing is a myth. You do gain more in a longer barrel, but you gain no matter what. The only deviation to that rule is the burn rate which finally doesn't fit enough powder in the case to burn... I BADLY want H1000 to run fast in 6 creed to give me a little better barrel life, but compressing the hell out of it, I still look like I'm shooting a blackpowder musket, and I'm 200fps slower than H4350...

As a rule of thumb, if I find something in 223/5.56 I can't do with Varget, then I know I'm doing something wrong. Benchmark is my go-to in 6.8, and 8208 in Grendel.

I'll say firmly, I'll do a 6mm AR, Turbo, Fat Rat, or 243 LBC before I get suckered into a Nosler or Valkyrie. I've been throwing 80 & 90 grain 22 cal pills long distances for a long time, out of fast twist 22-250, 223AI, and 22-243's, and I've seen what I can do with a 6mm vs. a 22cal bullet first hand. Any time a guy pushes a 22cal fast enough to trump a 6mm, you start talking about triple digit barrel life, and while that works for some folks, I'd rather keep a barrel more than half a season.

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22-243? Who's your smith, I need to talk to him! Sounds awesome!

Shilen chambered Savage drop in. Easy peasy... 6mos waiting on a barrel and a McMillan A3, plus a Friday afternoon, I converted a $175 farm sale Stevens 200 in .308win into a long range pdog and coyote perforator. Wouldn’t be a direction I’d recommend, but it was fun while it lasted. Which wasn’t long...

farmerboy78 wrote:
Powder burn rate vs speed

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Which burn rate?

Compare the burn rate charts from several different powder manufacturers. Note that they don't agree. This is because there is no industry-standard protocol for measuring powder burn rates. The powder Hodgdon shows as "fast" may be "slow" on the one published by Vhita Vuori.

Until you know what conditions a particular manufacturer tested the burn rate of various powders, picking powders by burn rate is an exercise in futility.

Ok some of you more experienced reloaders out there, I have a 224 valkyrie and reloads are underperforming for the speeds I am sure it should hit.

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This may be the worst thing about reloading manuals and ownership of a chronograph.

What makes you “sure it should hit” the velocity you are looking for?

If it’s something you have read, you may or may not be able to get there.

If, on the other hand, it’s because you have some factory ammunition (might get some of these and see what results you get http://www.federalpremium.com/224-valkyrie/) that makes it there, in your rifle, you have a much better chance of getting there with some combination.

As above, load the bullets long (to get as much internal volume as you can) and use the slowest powder you can to pack enough powder into the case for maximum velocity and that’s about it.