Define "Arms"

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....The Supreme Court is a product of the Constitution, and as such has no power to re-write the Constitution at a whim. They are bound to it, and any ruling they issue that conflicts with it is null and void.....

That is your fundamental misunderstanding and makes all your subsequent claims legally pointless.

There is simply no one to decide that a Supreme Court decision is "null and void." Whatever, the Supreme Court decides in the context of the case at bar will be put into effect and affect the lives and property of real people in the real world. Strutting around braying that the Court's decision is "null and void" will change nothing. As Justice Robert Jackson pointed out, referring to the Supreme Court:
We are not final because we are infallible, but we are infallible only because we are final.
You might find that philosophically unsatisfying, but it is simple reality.

And who would decide that a ruling by the Supreme Court conflicts with the Constitution? Is that your call? You might have an opinion, but what about someone else's opinion which conflicts with yours. And each of you might have your respective authorities to point to and your logical arguments to support your respective positions. Who would decide which of you is correct? According to the Founding Fathers, as provided in Article III, Sections 1 and 2 of the Constitution, it would be the province of the Supreme Court to decide.

And again, the decisions on matters of law of courts affect the lives and property of real people in the real world. Your opinions on matters of law do not (nor do all the quotes of Founding Fathers and others affect the lives and property of real people in the real world). And even the Founding Fathers would challenge your view here:

  • Hamilton in Federalist No. 78:
    ....If it be said that the legislative body are themselves the constitutional judges of their own powers, and that the construction they put upon them is conclusive upon the other departments, it may be answered, that this cannot be the natural presumption, where it is not to be collected from any particular provisions in the Constitution. It is not otherwise to be supposed, that the Constitution could intend to enable the representatives of the people to substitute their WILL to that of their constituents. It is far more rational to suppose, that the courts were designed to be an intermediate body between the people and the legislature, in order, among other things, to keep the latter within the limits assigned to their authority. The interpretation of the laws is the proper and peculiar province of the courts. A constitution is, in fact, and must be regarded by the judges, as a fundamental law. It therefore belongs to them to ascertain its meaning, as well as the meaning of any particular act proceeding from the legislative body. If there should happen to be an irreconcilable variance between the two, that which has the superior obligation and validity ought, of course, to be preferred; or, in other words, the Constitution ought to be preferred to the statute, ....

  • And Madison in Federalist No. 39:
    ....the proposed government cannot be deemed a NATIONAL one; since its jurisdiction extends to certain enumerated objects only, and leaves to the several States a residuary and inviolable sovereignty over all other objects. It is true that in controversies relating to the boundary between the two jurisdictions, the tribunal which is ultimately to decide, is to be established under the general government. But this does not change the principle of the case. The decision is to be impartially made, according to the rules of the Constitution; and all the usual and most effectual precautions are taken to secure this impartiality. Some such tribunal is clearly essential to prevent an appeal to the sword and a dissolution of the compact; and that it ought to be established under the general rather than under the local governments, or, to speak more properly, that it could be safely established under the first alone, is a position not likely to be combated....
And not the Constitution, nor any law, is self executing. Laws are tools used by courts to decide matters. The meaning and utility of laws comes from their use by courts for that purpose.

The reality is that our Constitution has served as a governing document of this republic for over 200 years. We've survived a panoply of travails, including civil war, economic ups and downs, an assortment of lousy elected officials, and some really lousy laws (like Prohibition) -- and yet we endure.

The judiciary, as other branches of government, is still subject to checks and balances. So if a judge's decision is unsatisfactory, the ball might well be in the court of the legislature.

It's not the proper role of a court to decide if the result is good or bad. It's the job of a court to apply the the law and applicable precedent to decide the case. It can sometimes be argued that in a given case the law was not properly applied, or the result of applying the law and precedent can in fact be unsatisfactory to some. We could think that a law is a bad idea or bad public policy, and that law could be entirely within the power of Congress to enact and perfectly constitutional. Being constitutional does not guarantee that a law is a good thing.

I often cite the case of Kelo v. City of New London, 545 U.S. 469 (2005) as an example of this phenomenon. It was a ruling on a technical point of eminent domain law (specifically involving the "takings" clause of the Fifth Amendment applied to the States through the 14th Amendment and the meaning of "public use"). The result was found to be unsatisfactory by many. As a consequence, the legislatures of 42 States revised those States' eminent domain laws to avoid a Kelo result. "Checks and balances" at work.

There is also the possibility of amending the Constitution. That's a difficult thing to do, and the Founding Fathers set things up that way. But if can be done, and has been done, when the consequences of a Supreme Court ruling are sufficiently unsatisfactory.

Perhaps the clearest, and most unhappy, example is the income tax. In 1895 the Supreme Court ruled in Pollock v. Farmers’ Loan & Trust Co. ( 157 U.S. 429 (1895) ; 158 U.S. 601 (1895)) that the Constitution did not give the federal government the power to levy a tax on income. But national solvency was such a significant concern that the Sixteenth Amendment was adopted.

So no, a ruling of the Supreme Court that you, or someone else, thinks conflicts with the Constitution is not "null and void."
 
You're correct. I posted that from memory and it's been a while since I had actually read it. However, I'm sure you'd agree that the meaning of both my (admittedly dumbed down) quote and the court's ruling relay the same message?

Sorry, I don't agree. SCOTUS did not say
it was not a viable weapon on the battlefield
. As you said, many men who had actually used short barrelled shotguns in the trenches agree that they were useful, however no evidence of that was presented so the court could not say that they were useful militarily.

IANAL, but my reading of various cases have lead me to believe that SCOTUS is very careful to rule narrowly on questions, and only where there is evidence to back up their ruling.
 
That is your fundamental misunderstanding and makes all your subsequent claims legally pointless.

There is simply no one to decide that a Supreme Court decision is "null and void." Whatever, the Supreme Court decides in the context of the case at bar will be put into effect and affect the lives and property of real people in the real world. Strutting around braying that the Court's decision is "null and void" will change nothing. As Justice Robert Jackson pointed out, referring to the Supreme Court:
You might find that philosophically unsatisfying, but it is simple reality.

And who would decide that a ruling by the Supreme Court conflicts with the Constitution? Is that your call? You might have an opinion, but what about someone else's opinion which conflicts with yours. And each of you might have your respective authorities to point to and your logical arguments to support your respective positions. Who would decide which of you is correct? According to the Founding Fathers, as provided in Article III, Sections 1 and 2 of the Constitution, it would be the province of the Supreme Court to decide.

And again, the decisions on matters of law of courts affect the lives and property of real people in the real world. Your opinions on matters of law do not (nor do all the quotes of Founding Fathers and others affect the lives and property of real people in the real world). And even the Founding Fathers would challenge your view here:

And not the Constitution, nor any law, is self executing. Laws are tools used by courts to decide matters. The meaning and utility of laws comes from their use by courts for that purpose.

The reality is that our Constitution has served as a governing document of this republic for over 200 years. We've survived a panoply of travails, including civil war, economic ups and downs, an assortment of lousy elected officials, and some really lousy laws (like Prohibition) -- and yet we endure.

The judiciary, as other branches of government, is still subject to checks and balances. So if a judge's decision is unsatisfactory, the ball might well be in the court of the legislature.

It's not the proper role of a court to decide if the result is good or bad. It's the job of a court to apply the the law and applicable precedent to decide the case. It can sometimes be argued that in a given case the law was not properly applied, or the result of applying the law and precedent can in fact be unsatisfactory to some. We could think that a law is a bad idea or bad public policy, and that law could be entirely within the power of Congress to enact and perfectly constitutional. Being constitutional does not guarantee that a law is a good thing.

I often cite the case of Kelo v. City of New London, 545 U.S. 469 (2005) as an example of this phenomenon. It was a ruling on a technical point of eminent domain law (specifically involving the "takings" clause of the Fifth Amendment applied to the States through the 14th Amendment and the meaning of "public use"). The result was found to be unsatisfactory by many. As a consequence, the legislatures of 42 States revised those States' eminent domain laws to avoid a Kelo result. "Checks and balances" at work.

There is also the possibility of amending the Constitution. That's a difficult thing to do, and the Founding Fathers set things up that way. But if can be done, and has been done, when the consequences of a Supreme Court ruling are sufficiently unsatisfactory.

Perhaps the clearest, and most unhappy, example is the income tax. In 1895 the Supreme Court ruled in Pollock v. Farmers’ Loan & Trust Co. ( 157 U.S. 429 (1895) ; 158 U.S. 601 (1895)) that the Constitution did not give the federal government the power to levy a tax on income. But national solvency was such a significant concern that the Sixteenth Amendment was adopted.

So no, a ruling of the Supreme Court that you, or someone else, thinks conflicts with the Constitution is not "null and void."


Let me start off with both an apology and a thank you. I know we've gotten a bit off of forum rules with this discussion (intent, perception, reality) so I apologize for opening that tangent as well as thank you for rebuttals founded in precedent.

Make no mistake, there is zero fault to be found in your summary. But to clarify, it's that very fact where my (personal) stance stems from. Because in retrospect, our judicial system wasn't thought through by many of the founders (and I am a direct descendant of William Blount, one of the founders. So my family has some skin in that blame game). Because the scope of power it wielded upon conception compared to the growth in that power it experienced under Madison is, to me at least, staggering.

However, I lay that fault at the feet of Congress. Because when read in it's entirety:

Article III

Section 1

The judicial Power of the United States, shall be vested in one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish. The Judges, both of the supreme and inferior Courts, shall hold their Offices during good Behaviour, and shall, at stated Times, receive for their Services, a Compensation, which shall not be diminished during their Continuance in Office.

Congress, as our elected representatives, has the power to remove any judge found to be acting outside accordance with the Constitution. Because what use is a document and laws when 9 unelected people can re-interpret it in anyway they choose? There are no checks and balances from either the legislative or the executive on the judiciary. If the judiciary determined that the original intent of the sentence "The sky is blue" means "The sky is green" then the sky is indeed green. In the words of former Justice Charles Evans Hughes, "We are under a Constitution, but the Constitution is what the judges say it is."

But (more so in today's political climate) I by no means have any illusions that we'd ever see such Congressional action, as it's much easier to tell voters "It's not my fault." I hope that better clarifies my stance (and make no mistake, it is fully my personal stance) regarding my issues with the state of our system and the SCOTUS? By no means do I intend to come across as "Strutting around braying", although admittedly I am extremely hyper-defensive of anything remotely related to civil liberties (I'm a Barry Goldwater conservative. It's what we do....lol).

However, relating to established case precedent (which I am about to address underneath this with my reply to patmccoy), I'd very much appreciate your input. Because while I understand that lawyers love to use ambiguous as language as possible to allow for later "interpretive additions or retractions", I don't see the leeway others do in the Miller case, based on both the court's ruling as well as the US Attorney's arguments against Miller. And again, I'm not a lawyer, so I say that not as defiant. I say that as I'm always open to being educated.


Sorry, I don't agree. SCOTUS did not say.

I took the time to re-read the case because as I said before, I was going from memory (I don't do the google thing for every sentence, which is not to say you do, as I fully believe you can't learn without making a mistake to learn from). When you quoted the court's ruling, you only quoted part of it. The full decision reads:

The Court cannot take judicial notice that a shotgun having a barrel less than 18 inches long has today any reasonable relation to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, and therefore cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees to the citizen the right to keep and bear such a weapon.

In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a "shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length" at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment, or that its use could contribute to the common defense.

Does that not state what the militia is as well as the right to arms protected? Also, after I re-read it I found where my brain was pulling the "not viable on the battlefield" logic. It was from part of the US Attorney's arguments against Miller's case, that the 2nd Amendment protects only the ownership of military-type weapons appropriate for use in an organized militia. Obviously I still misquoted it, but I don't feel I misrepresented it.

As you said, many men who had actually used short barrelled shotguns in the trenches agree that they were useful, however no evidence of that was presented so the court could not say that they were useful militarily.

IANAL, but my reading of various cases have lead me to believe that SCOTUS is very careful to rule narrowly on questions, and only where there is evidence to back up their ruling.

Ironically (fun fact), the District Court judge who ruled in favor of Miller was EXTREMELY pro gun control. A lot of people believe he ruled in favor of Miller's case knowing it'd go to the SCOTUS but Miller, due to his criminal background and apparently informing on his associates, would immediately go into hiding and never show at the SCOTUS hearing. Thereby losing by default.
 
...Because in retrospect, our judicial system wasn't thought through by many of the founders ...
Considering that many of the Founding Fathers were lawyers and a number were judges, that's a bizarre contention.

....Article III

Section 1

The judicial Power of the United States, shall be vested in one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish. The Judges, both of the supreme and inferior Courts, shall hold their Offices during good Behaviour, and shall, at stated Times, receive for their Services, a Compensation, which shall not be diminished during their Continuance in Office.

Congress, as our elected representatives, has the power to remove any judge found to be acting outside accordance with the Constitution....
Exactly how do you reach the conclusion that "good behavior" necessarily means interpreting and applying the Constitution in the way a majority of Congress thinks it should be. The notion would eviscerate checks and balances. What legal or historical authority can you cite to support that preposterous reading of "good behavior"?

The concept of judges holding office during good behavior long predates our Republic and has its roots in English Law. This paper, "Judicial Disability and the Good Behavior Clause", by William Pratt and published in the 1976 edition of The Yale Law Review includes a good discussion, at pages 708--718, of the history of the principle of judicial tenure during good behavior, both in England and our fledgling Republic.

What constitutes "good behavior" was well understood at the time of the Constitutional Convention. As Mr. Pratt notes in his article (at pp 713--714, footnoted omitted):
...Another example can be found in the 1780 impeachment trial of Judge Francis Hopkinson of Pennsylvania. In its opinion the Pennsylvania Supreme Executive Council wrote, "In the first place it is observable, that the commission of the Judge is during good behaviour; crimes only are causes of removal .... The juxtaposition of "crimes" and "good behaviour" made it clear that the mechanism for removal was irrelevant; no one could be removed from a good behavior office without having committed a crime. That opinion merely reiterates what had been said a century earlier in the English courts.....

As Mr. Pratt further explains (ibid. pg 714, footnotes omitted, emphasis added)
....As Alexander Hanson, a proponent of the Constitution, explained in 1788, good behavior in a judge was not an ambiguous concept, but one related "to the laws, and things universally known." That shared understanding was reflected in the Convention's unanimity on the tenure for federal judges. In England judges were removable by an address of both houses of Parliament. But in their desire to insulate the judiciary even more and to eliminate any discretionary element in the legislature, the Framers rejected removal by address.....

And Mr. Pratt further tells us (ibid., pg 715, footnotes omitted, emphasis in original) that an opponent of the Constitution:
...complained, "There is no authority that can remove them from office for any errors or want of capacity, or lower their salaries, and in many cases their power is superior to that of the legislature." The order of the statement (tenure followed by salary provisions) indicates that the author was referring to the good behavior clause....

....Because what use is a document and laws when 9 unelected people can re-interpret it in anyway they choose?.....

It was indeed the intention of the Founding Fathers that we have an independent federal judiciary. To turn to Mr. Pratt again (ibid., pg 718):
...The Framers chose good behavior tenure to limit the power to remove judges and to ensure judicial independence....

What use is a judge in a system of checks and balances if he can be removed from office simply because he disagreed with the prevailing mood of an elected body? As Hamilton tells us in Federalist 78:

  • ...The standard of good behavior for the continuance in office of the judicial magistracy, is certainly one of the most valuable of the modern improvements in the practice of government. In a monarchy it is an excellent barrier to the despotism of the prince; in a republic it is a no less excellent barrier to the encroachments and oppressions of the representative body. And it is the best expedient which can be devised in any government, to secure a steady, upright, and impartial administration of the laws....

  • And:
    ..The complete independence of the courts of justice is peculiarly essential in a limited Constitution. By a limited Constitution, I understand one which contains certain specified exceptions to the legislative authority; such, for instance, as that it shall pass no bills of attainder, no ex-post-facto laws, and the like. Limitations of this kind can be preserved in practice no other way than through the medium of courts of justice, whose duty it must be to declare all acts contrary to the manifest tenor of the Constitution void. Without this, all the reservations of particular rights or privileges would amount to nothing....

...There are no checks and balances from either the legislative or the executive on the judiciary....
That is simply not true, as I illustrated in post 26.

...If the judiciary determined that the original intent of the sentence "The sky is blue" means "The sky is green" then the sky is indeed green....
Phooey!

Judges, like like people generally, are human with their shares of human frailties. They aren't perfect, but neither is anyone else. But they are also well educated and have had to run a professional gauntlet to rise in their professions.

It's a great myth that the judiciary acts with no constraint.

First, of course, what courts do is in the public eye, and judges function in a fishbowl. They must justify their decisions, and those justifications are subject to public scrutiny and criticism. The decisions of trial court judges are subject to review on appeal. The decisions of appellate courts are made by a majority of a multi-judge panel.

Every judicial organization has a supervisor committee of judges, usually called a "judicial council" which has a wide range of responsibilities associated with the conduct of business by the courts, including monitoring of the conduct and behaviors of judges. Such judicial councils can, and have, intervened in cases of severely aberrant behavior or egregious misconduct by a judge.

And then there is a fundamental human reality: people, other than sociopaths and psychopaths, are concerned about their reputations, especially among their peers. Professionals like doctors, lawyers, judges, etc., who have studied and worked hard and long to achieve some level of success and prominence in their professions tend to care both about being professionally respected by their peers, and the usages and traditions of their professions. There is such a thing as [professional] conscience, and in the real world that is a constraint.

In every profession there are bad apples. That is the way of humanity. But in real life the vast majority of doctors try very hard to be honest and diligent in their professional lives and to properly and competently practice their profession. The same can be said of lawyers and judges.

It's true that bad things can happen to lousy doctors, lawyer or judges. They can be stymied in reaching their professional and economic goals. They can lose their licenses or positions. In extreme cases they can go to jail. Some have suffered all those bad outcomes.

Sometimes patients die (as people, especially sick people, will do). Sometimes lawyers lose (and often because their clients were in the wrong). Sometimes we might not like the result of a judge's decision (but maybe what we really need to think about is changing the law). Nonetheless, the vast majority of the time doctors, lawyers and judges are trying hard to do things properly and well.

And the judiciary, as other branches of government, is still subject to checks and balances. So if a judge's decision is unsatisfactory, the ball might well be in the court of the legislature.

Of course there can be genuine professional disagreement about things. The fact that I might, professionally, conclude that a particular decision of a court was wildly off base doesn't translate to a conclusion that it was the product of evil intent, dishonesty or chicanery. And we return to the fundamental fact that insofar as there may be disagreement about what the Constitution means or how it applies the Founding Fathers intended that disagreement to be resolved by the federal courts.

....the District Court judge who ruled in favor of Miller was EXTREMELY pro gun control. A lot of people believe he ruled in favor of Miller's case knowing it'd go to the SCOTUS but Miller, due to his criminal background and apparently informing on his associates, would immediately go into hiding and never show at the SCOTUS hearing....

"A lot of people"? What "people"? Upon what evidence do they contend that? Upon what evidence do you give what appears to be merely an empty rumor enough credence to bother passing it on?
 
"A lot of people"? What "people"? Upon what evidence do they contend that? Upon what evidence do you give what appears to be merely an empty rumor enough credence to bother passing it on?

Because while a Congressman one his main platforms was for strong gun control. Added with the fact he was a big supporter of The New Deal (when America went socialist lite).
 
When that happens let me know and we can discuss it.

Larger perversions of the Constitution have already passed into judicial record. The whole-cloth invention of a right to privacy comes to mind.

<snip>
You might believe based on such sources that you understand the meaning, and you may conduct your life in accordance with your understanding of that meaning as thus derived. If you then find yourself in court involved in a case or controversy in which the meaning is material, your understanding of the meaning is irrelevant unless the court agrees.

This is the Legal Forum, and our purpose here is to understand the law. We are interested in the Constitution as law and how it might be applied by courts to decide cases and controversies.

We need to go a step further, particularly in this case. If we state that 'the Court interprets the Constitution, therefore the Court's interpretation of the Constitution is final', we're making it sound as if the Constitution means whatever the court declares that it means.

That's silly. If it were true the Court would be infallible; judicial error or malfeasance would be impossible since the Court's declaration would redefine the meaning of the Constitution.

The founders clearly contemplated the eventuality of government (including judicial) malfeasance, and spent the greater part of the Constitution and Bill design against it; the 2nd Amendment is one of these design features. If the Court declares tomorrow that 'arms' means 'muskets' they will be wrong, but we will only know that they are wrong because we know that they do not define what the Constitution means.

In order to have a clear understanding of whether the Supreme Court is right or wrong in any particular case, we need an understanding of what the Constitution means regardless of what the Court has said it means. We get that by reading the Constitution, and by reading the commentary on the Constitution written by the same people.

Where better to talk about the meaning of the Constitution, and the very real potential for judicial error (or malfeasance) in interpretation, than in the Legal forum?
 
All this talk and fancy language and I still don't see a clear definition of "arms" other than that weaponry that the infantrymen carry.
 
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Because while a Congressman one his main platforms was for strong gun control. Added with the fact he was a big supporter of The New Deal (when America went socialist lite).
You didn't answer the questions. I didn't ask for evidence that the trial judge in Miller was anti-gun.

You wrote:
....A lot of people believe he ruled in favor of Miller's case knowing it'd go to the SCOTUS but Miller, due to his criminal background and apparently informing on his associates, would immediately go into hiding and never show at the SCOTUS hearing....
So what people thought that, i. e., that the judge ruled for Miller for that purpose; what evidence did those people base that opinion on; and on the basis of what do you believe them?
 
Larger perversions of the Constitution have already passed into judicial record. The whole-cloth invention of a right to privacy comes to mind....
Phooey!

You characterize the finding of a constitutional right to privacy to be a perversion and a whole cloth invention. Clearly you are relying on your understanding of the meaning and application of the Constitution, but what about other opinions? How did the question become your call? If in your view other opinions aren't possible, then clearly you're not opposed to tyranny, as long as it's your flavor of tyranny. It's only other peoples' tyranny you object to.

As for finding a constitutional right of privacy being a perversion, do you have any clue as to the bases for that? Have you read Griswold v. Connecticut, 381 U.S. 479 (1965)? In Griswold even Justice Harlan, an Eisenhower appointee generally recognized as a conservative, concurs in the finding of a right of privacy embodied in the basic human values recognized and protected by the Constitution.

As far as being fashioned out of whole cloth, this short article and this short article provide a glimpse of the history stretching back to the 1920s of the acceptance of privacy as a right. Samual Warren and Louis Brandeis posited a constitutional right to privacy in an article published in1890 in the Harvard Law Review.

.....We need to go a step further, particularly in this case. If we state that 'the Court interprets the Constitution, therefore the Court's interpretation of the Constitution is final', we're making it sound as if the Constitution means whatever the court declares that it means....
Yes, that is how things are in real life in the real world.

How could it be otherwise? As long as disagreement regarding the meaning and application of law is possible, there must be some point at which that disagreement is resolved. And the Founding Fathers provided for that responsibility to fall to the federal courts.

.....If it were true the Court would be infallible; ...
Well as Justice Robert Jackson pointed out, referring to the Supreme Court:
We are not final because we are infallible, but we are infallible only because we are final.

.....The founders clearly contemplated the eventuality of government (including judicial) malfeasance, and spent the greater part of the Constitution and Bill design against it; the 2nd Amendment is one of these design features....
Phooey! That's your solution. As Madison wrote in Federalist No. 39 (emphasis added):
....the proposed government cannot be deemed a NATIONAL one; since its jurisdiction extends to certain enumerated objects only, and leaves to the several States a residuary and inviolable sovereignty over all other objects. It is true that in controversies relating to the boundary between the two jurisdictions, the tribunal which is ultimately to decide, is to be established under the general government. But this does not change the principle of the case. The decision is to be impartially made, according to the rules of the Constitution; and all the usual and most effectual precautions are taken to secure this impartiality. Some such tribunal is clearly essential to prevent an appeal to the sword and a dissolution of the compact; and that it ought to be established under the general rather than under the local governments, or, to speak more properly, that it could be safely established under the first alone, is a position not likely to be combated....

And exactly what makes you think that any resort to violence could do anything preserve your view of what the Constitution? Exactly when has any rebellion actually accomplished anything remotely like that? Russia? China? Cambodia? Iran? That's just not how revolution works. The vast majority of revolutions wind up simply replacing one despot with another.

...In order to have a clear understanding of whether the Supreme Court is right or wrong in any particular case, we need an understanding of what the Constitution means regardless of what the Court has said it means. ....
Phooey!

In the real world in real life it doesn't matter what you think the Constitution means. The world will be going on about it's business without consideration of your opinions.

The opinions of courts on matters of law affect the lives and property of real people in the real world. Your opinions on such matters and $2.00 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbuck.
 
I had responses to side issues raised in this thread (right to privacy, call to revolt).
Then I realized thus is Legal. Legal forum is what the law is, what the courts have decided. The opening post is: Curious to know what you think "Arms" does and does not include, and why.

When the Overmountain Men mustered at Sycamore Shoals in 1790 to march to engage Major Ferguson's Loyalist force at King's Mountain, "arms" included mostly rifles, a few muskets and included the sufficent gun powder, priming powder, balls, to keep the guns shooting, plus knives, hatchets, and swords for close quarters combat.

Tennessee Constitution protects the citizens' "right to keep and bear arms" for defense and the power of the legislature "to regulate the wearing of arms with a view to prevent crime". The "going armed" statute has a list of specific weapons/arms some typed as prohibited but also defines "arms" as practically anything carried in public as a weapon of defense or offense.* Under that law, transporting a firearm to a target range is not "going armed" but carrying a sharp pointy stick down the street with intent to jab someone is "going armed", so what is an "arm" can be an intepretation of intent and usage. Plus if you intend to carry your cane as a weapon of defense, the state strongly recommends that you go to a martial arts instructor and be certfied as trained in stick fighting and self-defense law. Summation: if you intend to use anything as a weapon of defense, it can be viewed as an "arm". That colors what I think of as "arms" in ref OP #1.

__________________________
* There's usually some wag who has read the law who jokes about "slingshot" being listed as a weapon prohibited from carry in public. Actually "Slingshot" is either a window sash weight with a strap or a ball of lead or iron in a pouch or bag, an improvised percussion used as a black jack. When the law was writ, a Y shaped stick with elastic for projecting rocks or ball bearings was a "catapult".
 
Carl, thanks for pulling us back on topic.

I should have been more specific with my question. What I mean to ask is what is the current definition of "arms" in practical terms (which specific weapons). My follow up would be, why was the line drawn where it is, and not more liberal than that. IOW, who decided that "arms" does not include grenades or full-auto and when.
 
You didn't answer the questions. I didn't ask for evidence that the trial judge in Miller was anti-gun.

You wrote:
So what people thought that, i. e., that the judge ruled for Miller for that purpose; what evidence did those people base that opinion on; and on the basis of what do you believe them?

lol

Ragon was a New Deal supporter, which also included the New Deal on Crime. A STRONG supporter of federal power as well openly wanting to ban pistols (what he viewed as the AR15 of the day for modern comparison) which is directly why FDR appointed him to the courts as he was of like mind relating to FDR's government overreach BS. Records show he ENCOURAGED Miller to plead innocent. Even though EVERYONE knew Miller would never pursue any higher court appeals by the state which US Attorneys had made clear they would. Miller was broke and had turned evidence on many accomplices, so even if not in fear of his life he wouldn't have financial resources to pursue.

It gave them a case to be heard with only one side presenting and to strengthen FDR's socialist crap. Considering that the above is something in line with arguments that could send someone to prison today for conspiracy charges today (there are people in prison under RICO for less), trying to decry that as opinion and not acceptable evidence is simply reaching.

I get you are a legal positivist. But Rights do not come from the Constitution. Rights were attempted to be outlined within the Constitution, specifically the Bill of Rights. 'Congress shall make no law abridging the Freedom of speech.' The framers are acknowledging that Rights preceded the Constitution. You believe that Rights come from the majority or the plurality and are subject to change with the times.

The Constitution has either authorized the government we have or has been powerless to defend against it.

I have a moral Right to defend myself. Period.

That is regardless of what laws a given majority decide to enforce or what Constitution I'm born under.

Their immoral and positivist laws are null and void because they are kangaroos. I don't dance on command. Realistically if more people openly or subtly nullified their decisions would be effectively worthless. Which insofar as I am concerned, any law in opposition to freedom IS null and void.

I'm curious to ask though, when the signers of the Declaration of Independence strutted and brayed that that regime's rulings were null and void, did it have an effect?

As Justice Robert Jackson pointed out, referring to the Supreme Court:

We are not final because we are infallible, but we are infallible only because we are final.

You keep saying this to people as justification while ignoring the fallacy. Another way of saying this is, "What the Supreme Court says is infallible. We know this because the Supreme Court says so." Surely you see the circular logic in that?
 
....Ragon was a New Deal supporter,....

You still haven't answered the question:
...You wrote:
....A lot of people believe he ruled in favor of Miller's case knowing it'd go to the SCOTUS but Miller, due to his criminal background and apparently informing on his associates, would immediately go into hiding and never show at the SCOTUS hearing....
So what people thought that, i. e., that the judge ruled for Miller for that purpose; what evidence did those people base that opinion on; and on the basis of what do you believe them?

So we can only now concluded that when you wrote, "A lot of people believe...." you made that up. So while you might believe that, you're actually not aware of whether others share that belief. Thus your reference to "a lot of people" was disingenuous and merely a rhetorical device to add weight to your unsupported opinion.

....I have a moral Right ....
You view of moral rights is off topic for the Legal Forum. Again the ground rules for the Legal Forum:
  • As it says in the description of the Legal Forum found on the Index Page of THR:
    In the Legal Forum we try to understand what the law is (including court decisions and proposed laws), how it works, and how it applies to RKBA issues. We focus on the way things are – not the way we think they should be....

  • And as we say in The Legal Forum Guidelines:
    ... The Legal Forum is for the discussion of the law as it is and how the law actually applies in RKBA matters, not the way we think things should be or the way we wish they were. Comments and opinions should be based on legal principles and supported where appropriate with reference to legal authority, including court decisions, statutes and scholarly articles. Comments based on wishful thinking may be openly refuted or simply deleted by the staff....​

In the real world laws matter. And gun owners need to understand the law and how it works in real life. The possession and use of firearms is heavily regulated, and an understanding of what the law actually is and how it actually works is important so that one can conduct his affairs in ways the minimize his risks of running afoul of the law, and also so that he can more effectively participate in efforts to further and protect the RKBA. Misconceptions about what the law is and how it works help neither.

And notwithstanding or your belief that you have a moral right to do something, if you violate the law you will bear the consequences.

....insofar as I am concerned, any law in opposition to freedom IS null and void....
So laws against theft are null and void. Laws against murder are null and void? The former is certainly in opposition to my freedom to steal your lunch money, and the latter is in opposition to my freedom to kill you if you resist.

In any event, this discussion has dragged this thread off topic enough. So from now on stick to the guidelines noted above.
 
Carl, thanks for pulling us back on topic.

I should have been more specific with my question. What I mean to ask is what is the current definition of "arms" in practical terms (which specific weapons). My follow up would be, why was the line drawn where it is, and not more liberal than that. IOW, who decided that "arms" does not include grenades or full-auto and when.

As I noted in another thread, a problem we're having in this dicussion is the Constitutional definition of "arms" vs. the laws definition of "firearms". Congress, in the NFA, decided that "firearms" were different from "destructive devices", both of which were different from "any other weapons". "Arms" can be interpreted as encompassing ALL of those. As well as weapons not covered under the NFA or other regulation. A muzzle loader is an arm, as is a cartridged based weapon. A sword is an arm. A taser is an arm. And in 2016, the Supreme Court indeed ruled that a taser was not only an arm covered under the Second Amendment, but further ruled that a taser was neither "unusual or dangerous." (Caetano, 2016).

Though the terms "arms” by be amorphously defined by the Court, that may be a good thing, as it allows the Court to readily accept that modern technologies are embraced under the Second Amendment.

The Miller case did not define "arms." The definition has never restricted civilian use of military weapons - in fact the Miller decision (problematic though it is) restricted civilian use of weapons that had no military application (the sawed off shotgun, in that case).

So, as I argued in the other thread, the conventions and terminology created under the NFA and other regulation does not necessarily correlate with the term "arms" under the Second Amendment. Rather, the NFA may simply be defining subsets of "arms", which includes "firearms" as just one type.

Heller established that the right to bear arms is an individual right, but further reminded us that "reasonable" restrictions on the right to bear arms are not impermissible, such as for dangerous or unusual weapons. Or restrictions on dangerous and unusual people, for that matter.
 
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Agreed. We'll stick to forum rules going forward.
 
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NFA is a good read.

So there is clearly precedent for determining which "arms" citizens can bear - without registering them anyway.
 
NFA is a good read.

So there is clearly precedent for determining which "arms" citizens can bear - without registering them anyway.

Not exactly.

The NFA defines what firearms and other things are covered by the NFA. But that doesn't necessarily mean the anything else useable as a weapon is an "arm" within the protection of the Second Amendment.
 
that might be the first time I've heard of the NFA referenced as "a good read" ...

As Frank says, the NFA defines classes of certain arms, but does not encompass all "arms." We're retreading the same ground here, so again, the Court has ruled that "the Second Amendment extends, prima facie, to all instruments that constitute bearable arms, even those that were not in existence at the time of the founding."

The NFA does not cover "all instruments that constitute bearable arms," though the ATF does tend to stretch and overreach. In 1976, the ATF overreached (as usual), and defined tasers as an AOW under the NFA, finding that "a hand-held device designed to expel by means of an explosive two electrical contacts (barbs) connected by two wires attached to a high voltage source in the device is a “firearm” within the purview of 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(3)(A). It is also an “any other weapon” under the National Firearms Act (26 U.S.C. 5845(e))."

The "reasoning" relied on the finding that a firearm "generally means a weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive." Hence, a taser in an arm that falls under NFA. On the contrary, a stun gun (the one you press against someone) is an arm that does NOT fall under NFA, nor does mace/pepper spray is an arm that does NOT fall under NFA (because neither rely on the energy of an explosive). And, in a generation, portable directed energy weapons are likely to emerge at least in a military environment (finally getting into the realm of science fiction), but would be arms not covered under the NFA because they do not meet any of the criteria.

So the concept of "arms" embraced by the Supreme Court is flexible enough to encompass any bearable arm, whether or not it is in the NFA.

What "arms" a citizen may bear relies on the NFA only inasmuch as the citizen want to obtain a particular weapon that must be registered (so yes, they can still get it, but just need to go through the process), or wants to obtain a particular weapon that is too dangerous or unusual, and is restricted under the NFA. And, further, the citizen may obtain "arms" that are entirely outside the purview of the NFA.
 
By "good read" I only mean informative.

This description of the NFA seems like something that could have been written following any of the recent mass shootings:

As the legislative history of the law discloses, its underlying purpose was to curtail, if not prohibit, transactions in NFA firearms. Congress found these firearms to pose a significant crime problem because of their frequent use in crime, particularly the gangland crimes of that era such as the St. Valentine’s Day Massacre.
 
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