Squib load tonight

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DLrocket89

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Hi everyone,

Getting ready for my first USPSA match in over a decade next Sunday. Went to the range tonight and had a squib load that I'm a bit flummoxed about and I'm wondering if someone here can help me out.

First, some background. I'm reloading 9mm for a CZ75 SP-01. Running Starline brass, 145 gn round nose ACME coated bullets, CCI small pistol primers, Win 231 powder. I'm loading on a Lee 1000 Pro press.

The press comes with the Lee auto disc thingy for measuring powder. What I've been finding is that the disc size is roughly 1/10 the powder weight... ie, the ".32" disc gives me about 3.2 grains powder (the density is .93, so that's about right). I'm trying to bring my power factor down as much as I can (and stay above 125), so I've been playing with powder loading.

I need 860 fps min. The .34 disc gives me 975 fps, .32 gives me 925, .30 gives me 875 (nice linear relationship). I did have a couple .30's fall below the 860 I needed...what I need is a .31 really. Should average 900 fps and have my lowest be about 870. About perfect.

Unfortunately, the Autodisc doesn't come with a .31 hole. So, I purchased this: https://www.midwayusa.com/product/150005/lee-auto-disk-adjustable-powder-charge-bar

I loaded 10 each of .30, .31, .32, .33, and .34. I was at the range tonight and decided to shoot 5 of each for accuracy/impact position. The third shot on the .30 (the first load I shot) was a squib.

When I pulled the trigger on the load, the gun hissed. Smoke poured out of the chamber, and I swear it hissed for about a second. Maybe it was just me freaking out drawing the time out? Regardless, yikes. I quickly disassembled it, and found a few things. 1) The brass was crazy sooty. 2) The chamber had tan looking particles in it that looked a lot like unburned powder? 3) the bullet was about 3/4 of the way down the barrel.

Any ideas WTH happened? It looked to me like there was powder in the round, but it didn't burn. Is it possible that I downloaded this far enough that it basically lit a "bonfire" instead of an "explosion"? Brass didn't seal off, so it never really pressurized? I have about 1,000 round through this press in the last 6 weeks and this is the first squib I've had. The round would've been somewhere in the 100-110th round I had loaded during that loading session, and all of the others before it went "bang" just fine.

I've tried to get as many of the questions I can think of answered in advance...thanks for reading!

Dustin
 
The chrono results should demonstrate whether you have inherent ignition issues. What did the chrono results for the .30 load look like?

In a general sense there's three things to go wrong - wet powder, faulty primer or insufficient charge. The soot/lack of case sealing is in my opinion a symptom of the squib, not the cause of the problem. CCI SPP are pretty reliable.
 
I didnt get to chrono the .30 (or any of them). Will on Sunday, being veeery careful while doing it. Will let yo know what happens.
 
On the bright side of things, I scrubbed the crap out of the barrel and it looks perfect, so no damage.
 
Sounds like you had powder but did not ignite as it should have. My guess is that you may have neck tension problem. I'm thinking the bullet moved forward when chambered. If the bullet jumps too far out of the brass it will not build pressure fast enough to build pressure. Normally you will get bullet setback in the magazine which will increase the pressure greatly. But in this case I think the momentum caused the bullet to shift forward.
 
I’ve had the same exact thing you describe happen to me twice in 357 magnum. It’s most likely a fluke but I would suggest trying a flake type powder such as bullseye or power pistol. They tend to work better in light loads in my opinion.
 
I'm going with inadequate neck tension/taper crimp. Is this well used brass? I'd start worrying next, if it is, about telescoping and pressure spikes.
 
I didn’t like the adjustable charge bar myself, I tested it and put it back in the package.

I would modify and mark a disk before so relied on the adjustable one.

Not that that is your problem, just my observation.
 
Thanks for the replies everyone! Topics:

1) Neck tension - I'm pretty sure I'm OK here. Brass had one firing on it, Starline brass that I bought new (it wasn't brass I picked up off the range floor). At minimum, I know that the bullet couldn't have crept forward much. I'm running a COAL of 1.094"...anything much over 1.13 and the round won't chamber. The CZ has a crazy short throat on it, so I've had to move the bullet in further than I expected I would. Also, I've run over 1000 rounds in the last 6 weeks, all of it this brass, this press, these neck tension settings, and no issues to be had.

2) Powder type - I'm sitting on about 3.5 pounds of 231, so I need to figure out with this powder so I can burn it up. Noted for future purchases though, thanks!

3) Modifying the disk was the first thought I had, till I found the adjustable thing.
 
LUCKYDAWG13 said:
This is why i like a single stage reloading press and use loading blocks and look in each case using a flashlight
Click to expand...

Understood, but how I have the press mounted it's pretty easy to look into the round as I'm putting the bullet on the case. I check every one (or so I thought...).
 
I'd guess powder contamination or a faulty primer. If the neck tension was that bad the bullet would just fall out when handling it. It sounds like a small amount of the powder burned but not much. Any chance the case got contaminated with water or oil? The water or oil will compromise the powder but not really effect the primer.

You might want to bring a second gun to the match in case something like this happens again.
 
I'm not sure about contamination...I can't think of anything that would've happened. My reloading area is pretty self contained, no food/water etc.

I don't have a second pistol I'd feel good using in the match (knackered old XD9 and an LCP are the others in the stable at the moment). As part of my "normal" kit, I do have a screwdriver I could use, maybe I'll add a couple blocks of wood I can use as a hammer and a base to pound one out if needed. :eek::oops::uhoh:
 
I might try to drive out a stuck bullet with a screwdriver if the zombies were gathering.
At the range, if I did not carry a brass rod, I would ask to borrow one, there will nearly always be some at a match.

I don't try to shade the minimum power factor. I am loading 3.4 gr HP38 (allee samee W231) and a 147 gr plated Xtreme. I also use the same powder charge with a 135 gr coated BBI which makes Minor but not by much, so I won't take them to a sanctioned match where a different chrono or ambient conditions might put me under.
 
Almost the same thing happened to me with a .38 Special and 2400 powder. The bullet moved forward far enough to lock the cylinder but the powder never seemed to ignite at all and the case was pretty well full.
Similarities..........CCI SMALL PISTOL PRIMERS.
 
Not sure how you got the squib, so no advice there. The only squibs I have ever had were from NO powder, just the primer fire.

I just wanted to echo what @Jim Watson said about not trying to shade the Minor Power Factor. I was chasing that for a while as well, and learned that there can be so may variables (chrony variations, powder drop, temperature, seating depth, case volume, etc.) that if you shave it too closely, you could end up below the minimum and not be able to shoot if they test you. Give yourself plenty of extra space.

Good luck, and I hope you solve your problem.
 
Jim Watson said:
I might try to drive out a stuck bullet with a screwdriver if the zombies were gathering.
At the range, if I did not carry a brass rod, I would ask to borrow one, there will nearly always be some at a match.

I don't try to shade the minimum power factor. I am loading 3.4 gr HP38 (allee samee W231) and a 147 gr plated Xtreme. I also use the same powder charge with a 135 gr coated BBI which makes Minor but not by much, so I won't take them to a sanctioned match where a different chrono or ambient conditions might put me under.
Click to expand...

Good point. I'll pick up the correct tools for the wrong job before the match. Just in case. And the way my life goes, if I have the tools with me I won't have a squib, and if I don't have the tools I will have one, so I'll carry the tools around and I won't have another squib.

That's a good point really. My current load coming out of the disk is a 134-ish, which isn't terrible. I'm also doing my load development in 30-degree northern wisconsin weather, so I'm not expecting it to get worse than that ever.

I'm going to chrono the .30-.34 tomorrow so I have the data, and then I'll probably go back to the .32 disk and call it good.
 
Doublehelix said:
I just wanted to echo what @Jim Watson said about not trying to shade the Minor Power Factor. I was chasing that for a while as well, and learned that there can be so may variables (chrony variations, powder drop, temperature, seating depth, case volume, etc.) that if you shave it too closely, you could end up below the minimum and not be able to shoot if they test you. Give yourself plenty of extra space.
Click to expand...

Yeah...multiple experienced (I presume) people saying the same thing. Time to listen to that advice and be happy with a reliable 134.
 
You probably got a light charge of powder which burned so inefficiently that it hissed and produced a lot of soot (typical when there is insufficient chamber pressure for efficient powder burn).

Keep in mind, primer alone will push a bullet into the barrel. A tiny bit more powder and you got bullet lodged deeper in the barrel.

jmorris said:
I didn’t like the adjustable charge bar myself, I tested it and put it back in the package.

I would modify and mark a disk before so relied on the adjustable one.
Click to expand...
+1. My experience with adjustable charge bar is when you are dropping small charges, it becomes less consistent because opening for powder charge to fall is not directly over the tube opening. Some have fixed this by adding epoxy/JB weld/bondo to the end of opening to reshape for better powder drop.

DLrocket89 said:
I need 860 fps min. The .34 disc gives me 975 fps, .32 gives me 925, .30 gives me 875 (nice linear relationship). I did have a couple .30's fall below the 860 I needed...what I need is a .31 really. Should average 900 fps and have my lowest be about 870. About perfect.

Unfortunately, the Autodisc doesn't come with a .31 hole.
Click to expand...
So make it do that.

With this $1 mod, you can modify .32 hole to drop like .31 hole - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/working-diy-micro-auto-disk.741988/

index.php


DLrocket89 said:
Neck tension - I'm pretty sure I'm OK here.
Click to expand...
You sure? To be sure, do this QC check.

Measure OAL of some dummy rounds (no powder/no primer) before and after feeding from the magazine and releasing the slide without riding it. This better duplicates the force when the bullet nose bumps the feed ramp that could cause bullet setback.

While I prefer no bullet setback, I am OK with bullet setback of a few thousandths. If I see significant bullet setback of more than several thousandths, I will investigate further.

BTW, here a thread we recently did to myth bust neck tension and bullet setback based on headstamp including Startline which did very well - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/myth-busting-neck-tension-and-bullet-setback.830072/

Jim Watson said:
I might try to drive out a stuck bullet with a screwdriver if the zombies were gathering.

At the range, if I did not carry a brass rod, I would ask to borrow one, there will nearly always be some at a match.
Click to expand...
Screwdriver can dig into the bullet and if not centered, can rub against the barrel.

If I don't have a brass rod (which is softer metal and won't damage the barrel), I prefer to use 1/4" extension wrapped with paper towel to center the extension and protect the barrel.
 
e rex said:
Almost the same thing happened to me with a .38 Special and 2400 powder. The bullet moved forward far enough to lock the cylinder but the powder never seemed to ignite at all and the case was pretty well full.
Similarities..........CCI SMALL PISTOL PRIMERS.
Click to expand...

Interesting...between rifle and pistol, I've burned probably 20k CCI primers and have never had an issue till now.

I was considering switching to magnum primers to try and make things burn hotter. The load itself is low enough I'm not worried about over pressure or anything. Heck, maybe I'd have to go down to the .30 disk at that point.

I also have about 3k regular CCI primers to burn, so maybe that'll be next season's task.
 
DLrocket89 said:
Yeah...multiple experienced (I presume) people saying the same thing. Time to listen to that advice and be happy with a reliable 134.
Click to expand...

Honestly, that is a good target, especially the "reliable" part. I try to find a load that shoots well and gives me a decent buffer. For Minor, I like to be *above* 130, so in that 132 - 135 range helps me to feel safe. I just try to find a really reliable, accurate load that hits above 130, and fine tune from there. Same thing with Major PF. 170+, but closer to 172 or over.
 
bds - thanks for the lengthy reply. That DIY mod to the disc is fantastic, going to have to do that for sure. I was trying to thing of dremeling out a pocket in the .30 to increase the volume, but I love that adjustable screw. Brilliant.

I'll give the neck tension test a try when able, life away from guns and the computer is calling.


Thanks again everyone!! Your comments are much appreciated!

Dustin
 
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