2 part question about Winchester's 9mm 124 gr NATO

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SC_Dave

SC_Dave

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My pistol likes it a lot.

Is it considered a +P round?

Does anyone have a recipe for W231 that would parallel the velocity and energy that Winchester lists for these rounds?

Muzzle Velocity (fps) 1140
Muzzle Energy (ft lbs) 358

I'm sure I could come close if I had a chrono but I'm embarrassed to say I don't. :(
 
Looks like according to Hodgdon/winchester data your velocity will likely require a +p load. They list max for 124 BERB plated RN (which supposedly go a bit faster with less pressure than true FMJ) as:

Winchester 231 .356" 1.150" 3.9 920 27,400 PSI 4.4 1,037 31,900 PSI

However I haven't tried it and I don't have a chrono. However I am loading 4.2 W231 with xtreme and berry's 124 plated RN right now, for the past 5K rounds or so, and it is a nice, accurate load in my guns. Pretty soft, too.

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol
 
Note that in their published max loads for 124 BERB and 124 FMJ, WSF, 244, 572, and AutoComp all match or come close to your desired velocity. W231 is not the best choice for max speed 9mm loads. Try a slower powder like BE-86, HS-6, Longshot, etc.

If you are looking only for matching that velocity for some reason. Me, I'd find a reliable, accurate load using the powder I want to use and stick with that.
 
I would use something a tad slower to replicate Nato 124 Gr 9MM. A 124 at 1140 is better suited to something like AA #5, HS-6 etc. IMHO of course.
 
Dave last year I was having issues with a Hornady 124 grain fmj using HS6 and Hornady data out of my 9mm 1911 as it wouldn’t work. A few here convinced me to use Hodgdon data of 6.4 to 6.8. As you I don’t have a chrono but using it I can tell you that at 6.8 that bullet is cruising and it feels like shooting a 1911 in 45.
 
I have too much W231 to not use it, good problem to have I guess. I'll guess I need to work up something close.
David
 
Reeferman said:
Dave last year I was having issues with a Hornady 124 grain fmj using HS6 and Hornady data out of my 9mm 1911 as it wouldn’t work. A few here convinced me to use Hodgdon data of 6.4 to 6.8. As you I don’t have a chrono but using it I can tell you that at 6.8 that bullet is cruising and it feels like shooting a 1911 in 45.
Click to expand...

Hmmm, I guess I need to start digging into some data sources. I have two books, Hornady and Lyman. I'll see what I can find online. I have 2000 RMR 124 FMJ RN on the way so that's what I'll be using.
 
I believe 124 NATO loads are a bit above the SAAMI non +p max of 35,000 psi. 36,500, if memory serves. You should be able to get 231 pretty close in feel if not velocity at this pressure level.
 
If you could let us know how your testing goes i would appreciate it, I'm considering the same work up after i work with the rmr 115 fmjrn i have coming
 
When I started reloading 9mm, a lot of WW231 data was far more adventurous (but safe) than current Hodgdon data. I'm sure it would make the 1140 fps velocity you want from say a 5" barrel. I don't have chronograph data for the 124 grain FMJ/WW231 combo, but using near max charges of WW231 back in the day with 115 grain FMJ, I was avg right around 1180 FPS from my M9. Power Pistol, and Unique is what I use to fuel 124 grain FMJ loads loads to 1200 FPS, and 115 jacketed bullets to 1240 fps. None of these loads were listed as +P FWIW.
 
NATO standard[edit]
The cartridge has been manufactured by, or for, more than 70 different countries and has become a standard pistol caliber for NATO and other military forces around the world. Its official nomenclature among NATO members is "9 mm NATO".[7] Standard bullet weight is 7.0 grams (108 gr) to 8.3 grams (128 gr).

9 mm NATO can be considered an overpressure variant of the 9×19mm Parabellum that is defined by NATO standards.[26] The service pressure Pmax of the 9 mm NATO is rated at 252 MPa (36,500 psi) where CIP rates the 9mm Luger Pmax somewhat lower at 235 MPa (34,100 psi). The 315 MPa (45,700 psi) proofing test pressure used in the NATO 9mm proof test, however, equals the proofing test pressure used in the 9mm Luger CIP proof test.
Click to expand...

Ramshot non +P data goes to about 35K PSI, Ramshot +P to about 38K PSI.
Hodgdon data stops about 33-33.5K PSI
Bullet Powder Powder Len Start Gr Vel Pressure Max Gr Vel Pressure
125 GR. SIE FMJ Winchester 231 .355" 1.090" 4.4 1009 24,600 CUP 4.8 1088 28,800 CUP

If you want to match the velocity I think a slower powder is needed. (as mentioned above)
If you want to use up the W231 I would just work up a load that shoots good and not worry about the velocity other than making PF if you need to.

5" 9mm 191, BE86, mixed range brass, S+B SP
BE86 will get you there, other as well.

String: 5
Date: 3/31/2017
Time: 3:17:17 PM
Grains: 124
Hi Vel: 1135
Low Vel: 1087
Ave Vel: 1115
Ext Spread: 48
Std Dev: 17
RMR 124 1.12 OAL BE86 5.3
Velocity Power Factor Ft/Lbs
1135 140.74 354.662
1117 138.508 343.502
1118 138.632 344.118
1087 134.788 325.299
1120 138.88 345.35
String: 6
Date: 3/31/2017
Time: 3:18:05 PM
Grains: 124
Hi Vel: 1180
Low Vel: 1143
Ave Vel: 1158
Ext Spread: 37
Std Dev: 14
RMR 124 1.12 OAL BE86 5.5
Velocity Power Factor Ft/Lbs
1180 146.32 383.343
1163 144.212 372.377
1160 143.84 370.458
1143 141.732 359.68
1146 142.104 361.57

Data exported from chrono and I did not tell the chrono software RN but saved the file from the chrono software to my laptop as .....RMR 124 RN.

Listed MAX is 5.8gr of BE86 but I think Alliant's charge for BE86 runs a bit on the hot side. Not listed as +P but there is no such thing as a free lunch so to get 1140 with a 124 you are going to be running close to or above the non +P pressure limits.
I don't recall if this data was my "hot" lot of BE86 or not. One lot I had seemed to be .1 to .2 gr hotter than another lot I had. So 5.3 with the hot lot needed about 5.4 or 5.5 with the other lot to match vels.
 
Last edited:
Dudedog said:
Ramshot non +P data goes to about 35K PSI, Ramshot +P to about 38K PSI.
Hodgdon data stops about 33-33.5K PSI
Bullet Powder Powder Len Start Gr Vel Pressure Max Gr Vel Pressure
125 GR. SIE FMJ Winchester 231 .355" 1.090" 4.4 1009 24,600 CUP 4.8 1088 28,800 CUP

If you want to match the velocity I think a slower powder is needed. (as mentioned above)
If you want to use up the W231 I would just work up a load that shoots good and not worry about the velocity other than making PF if you need to.

5" 9mm 191, BE86, mixed range brass, S+B SP
BE86 will get you there, other as well.

String: 5
Date: 3/31/2017
Time: 3:17:17 PM
Grains: 124
Hi Vel: 1135
Low Vel: 1087
Ave Vel: 1115
Ext Spread: 48
Std Dev: 17
RMR 124 1.12 OAL BE86 5.3
Velocity Power Factor Ft/Lbs
1135 140.74 354.662
1117 138.508 343.502
1118 138.632 344.118
1087 134.788 325.299
1120 138.88 345.35
String: 6
Date: 3/31/2017
Time: 3:18:05 PM
Grains: 124
Hi Vel: 1180
Low Vel: 1143
Ave Vel: 1158
Ext Spread: 37
Std Dev: 14
RMR 124 1.12 OAL BE86 5.5
Velocity Power Factor Ft/Lbs
1180 146.32 383.343
1163 144.212 372.377
1160 143.84 370.458
1143 141.732 359.68
1146 142.104 361.57

Listed MAX is 5.8gr of BE86 but I think Alliant's charge for BE86 runs a bit on the hot side. Not listed as +P but there is no such thing as a free lunch so to get 1140 with a 124 you are going to be running close to or above the non +P pressure limits.
I don't recall if this data was my "hot" lot of BE86 or not. One lot I had seemed to be .1 to .2 gr hotter than another lot I had. So 5.3 with the hot lot needed about 5.4 or 5.5 with the other lot to match vels.
Click to expand...

Awesome! Thanks very much DD!
 
SC_Dave asked:
Does anyone have a recipe for W231 that would parallel the velocity and energy that Winchester lists for these rounds?

Muzzle Velocity (fps) 1140
Muzzle Energy (ft lbs) 358
Click to expand...

Hodgdon's Hi-Skor 800-X will max out right there and still be a less-than-+P loading.

Downside is you pretty much have to weigh every charge since it meters so poorly.
 
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