Safe way to draw a 1911 in condition 1 by a left hander - part 2

rpenmanparker · Apr 30, 2018

Well, here I am at Front Sight after a full day of training and three more to go. Great stuff here, Highly recommended,

Now about the righty safety vs.ambi safety question: I want to report that the initial inspection of my gun drawn from my left side holster by a Front Sight employee did not result in my being forbidden to use the gun without ambi safety. HOWEVER, that isn't the end of the story. Very early in the training, when it was discovered that I could not fully comply with the approved Front Sight techniques for drawing and presenting the gun, I was immediately instructed to have the ambi safety installed by Front Sight's own gunsmiths. NOT OVERNIGHT, BUT IMMEDIATELY THAT MINUTE.That is how they roll here.

The job was done, and it has been smooth sailing since. I won't admit completely to being wrong as they wouldn't even watch me draw and determine if my technique was workable, But clearly this respected training source is committed to a particular set of procedures which my method would not comply with. So let's call it a draw. (pun) In any case I am in good shape now, doing the thing in a way you all would approve of.

But to me the more interesting story is that armory or gunsmithing function they have a Froint Sight. They had the part I needed (Wilson ambi safety), the part price was a little high ($68), the labor price was outstanding (about $35), AND they installed it for me in a scant 20 minutes. That's right, I said 20 minutes. Astounding. In Houston I would have had to make two-two hour round trips to the gunsmith due to distance and traffic and wait at least a week for the job to be done. Also I can't imagine walking out for $110 including tax. And the guys here just took the whole thing as a matter of course. They do this stuff with that kind of turnaround all the time. I was just blown away. Sure I am glad to have finally come to my senses (forcibly) and have had the job done. But really I am especially glad I procrastinated and had it done at Front Sight.

So once again thanks to all for the advice. I thought I could get away without the ambi sight. When that proved to be false, I was fortunate to be able to get the work done immediately and for a fair price, You all can beat me up now.

edmo01 · May 1, 2018

Congrats on the great training and obviously outstanding support there...

As another southpaw I couldn’t imagine running any of my 1911s without an ambi safety.

Edmo

lpsharp88 · May 1, 2018

As a lefty, i require ambi safeties on 1911's, even if they're strictly range guns and won't see carry, competition, or class use

9mmepiphany · May 1, 2018

rpenmanparker said:
I won't admit completely to being wrong as they wouldn't even watch me draw and determine if my technique was workable, But clearly this respected training source is committed to a particular set of procedures which my method would not comply with.

They didn't have to watch your draw. Their experience over many years and thousands of students has shown them that drawing a 1911, left handed, without an ambi thumb safety is inherently dangerous.

To allow you to continue would have been negligent as their site describes that practice as specifically not being permitted.

You're always free to engage in dangerous practices on our own, but when in a class where you might endanger other people, they have a responsibility to stop you.

they installed it for me in a scant 20 minutes. That's right, I said 20 minutes.

That is a normal amount of time to perform the fitting. They have an advantage of not having a backlog since they aren't taking general gunsmithing work

JeffG · May 1, 2018

rpenmanparker said:
I was immediately instructed to have the ambi safety installed by Front Sight's own gunsmiths. NOT OVERNIGHT, BUT IMMEDIATELY THAT MINUTE.That is how they roll here.

Excellent, that was the ONLY proper way to proceed. Kudos on them AND you!

30Cal · May 1, 2018

Nice. We were out there about 4 weeks ago.

Yeah, trying to work left handed without the ambi safety puts you at a severe disadvantage.

Varminterror · May 1, 2018

At least you finally absorbed proper technique and considered an appropriate and necessary modification to your gear. I’ve yet to understand why that was so hard to accept a month ago, but at least the horse is drinking...

U.S.SFC_RET · May 2, 2018

Sure it is inherently dangerous but I don't mind throwing my thumb over and disengaging the safety.

rpenmanparker · May 2, 2018

Varminterror said:
At least you finally absorbed proper technique and considered an appropriate and necessary modification to your gear. I’ve yet to understand why that was so hard to accept a month ago, but at least the horse is drinking...

I understand how you feel. But using your own analogy, the horse wasn’t thirsty. What I was doing was working well for me in the environment I was operating. When I got to the desert (literally as well as figuratively) a different plan was in order. Time to drink.

ATLDave · May 2, 2018

rpenmanparker said:
I understand how you feel. But using your own analogy, the horse wasn’t thirsty. What I was doing was working well for me in the environment I was operating. When I got to the desert (literally as well as figuratively) a different plan was in order. Time to drink.

There's a whole lot in the world of shooting, especially pistolcraft, that works acceptably well when not pressured with time or stress - lots of room for individual methods on the square range. Seeing what survives pressure - that's what's interesting. I get a kick out of watching competition teach people these lessons.

zaitcev · May 2, 2018

U.S.SFC_RET said:
Sure it is inherently dangerous but I don't mind throwing my thumb over and disengaging the safety.

You don't have to throw the thumb over. Watch this video by Larry Vickers:
https://www.full30.com/video/009e262b87ac821614265196d760386e

stchman · May 2, 2018

It mystifies me as to WHY the OP didn't get a 1911 with an ambi safety to begin with. There are PLENTY on the market.

murf · May 2, 2018

zaitcev said:
You don't have to throw the thumb over. Watch this video by Larry Vickers:
https://www.full30.com/video/009e262b87ac821614265196d760386e

thanks for the tip. my old 1911 will never have an ambi-safety, so this, to me, is the best solution for weak-hand shooting when carrying (always for me) condition 1.

murf

imashooter · May 2, 2018

I've always crossed my thumb over if safety is engaged. Nothing dangerous about it. My way or the highway. I'd told them to stuff it. If someone can't secure a decent grip on a 1911 without the thumb they should not be around one. Don't cock that hammer manually. You just lost control of your weapon. BS.

stchman · May 2, 2018

murf said:
thanks for the tip. my old 1911 will never have an ambi-safety, so this, to me, is the best solution for weak-hand shooting when carrying (always for me) condition 1.

murf

Jeez, get a gun that is lefty friendly and not that Condition 1 junk. There are a LOT of choices other than a gun that wasn't really designed for CCW.

huntsman · May 2, 2018

After watching the Vickers vid I think I‘d try my trigger finger on the safety, as a lefty I just avoided the 1911 opting for a revolver or ambi controled semi-auto.

Op what was your technique

murf · May 2, 2018

stchman said:
Jeez, get a gun that is lefty friendly and not that Condition 1 junk. There are a LOT of choices other than a gun that wasn't really designed for CCW.

heck no! learn to run that 1911 up, down and sideways. was bringing my thumb over to manipulate the safety. using the trigger finger is a much better solution to this problem.

i guess one could just carry a glock, but why limit myself? this old dog just learned a new trick!

murf

9mmepiphany · May 2, 2018

imashooter said:
I've always crossed my thumb over if safety is engaged. Nothing dangerous about it. My way or the highway. I'd told them to stuff it.

It is one of their conditions of instruction.

It is spelled out on their site when you sign up for classes. If you show up and are unwilling to address the issue, you'll be asked to leave and they won't be sending you a refund

Mizar · May 2, 2018

Does anyone acknowledges the fact that Larry Vickers is talking about an isolated case? When one is incapable of operating the gun with his right hand, so he has to use his left... He is showing you how to deal with that situation, not how left-handers should carry a 1911 style pistol. As a southpaw myself and one who carries a SA pistol daily I demand an ambidextrous safety - either the gun has one from the factory, gets equipped with one, or it's simply a range toy, but most definitely not a carry piece. Right hand magazine releases and slide stops can be operated safely, but this is not the case with the safety. In other words - why should I compromise my grip just to look cool at the range and then proceed to drop my gun when I really need it because of some stupid technique?

spartandemon · May 2, 2018

stchman said:
Jeez, get a gun that is lefty friendly and not that Condition 1 junk. There are a LOT of choices other than a gun that wasn't really designed for CCW.

Condition one is the only way to really carry. Carrying any other way is extremely amateur or a soon to be victim in the rare event you need that weapon in a fight.
This is true regardless of make and model or single, striker and da/sa.

imashooter · May 2, 2018

I prefer crossing the thumb because that's how I've done it for decades. But I'm just as proficient using my left index finger which retains the stronger grip and is a much quicker learning curve for left-handed newbies. Nothing to do with "looking cool" as you say. As I stated earlier, no difference than manually cocking the hammer. Get a grip.

Frank Ettin · May 2, 2018

zaitcev said:
You don't have to throw the thumb over. Watch this video by Larry Vickers....

imashooter said:
I've always crossed my thumb over if safety is engaged.....

Either however is s suboptimal technique and can slow one's presentation. As shown in the Vickers' video doing either requires some adjustment of one's grip between disengaging the safety and assuming a full firing grip.

On the other hand, when presenting a 1911 with one's right hand, or with one's left hand using an ambidextrous safety, one takes a full firing grip at the start; and when doing so the thumb falls naturally on the safety. Thus the safety can be disengaged (or engaged) with a easy thumb movement and without altering one's grip.

Mizar said:
Does anyone acknowledges the fact that Larry Vickers is talking about an isolated case? When one is incapable of operating the gun with his right hand, so he has to use his left... He is showing you how to deal with that situation,.....

Yes.

zaitcev · May 2, 2018

I heard of people crowding up onto the safety and engaging it, although I don't know what kind of weird grip you have to have to do it on a full size 1911. Some other guns even have ambi-deletion kits available, which permit safety changed to right-hand-only. Ruger ships that from the factory for Mark IV.

For a class, my solution would be... to shoot right-handed. Yes, it requires a new holster.

Frank Ettin · May 2, 2018

zaitcev said:
I heard of people crowding up onto the safety and engaging it, although I don't know what kind of weird grip you have to have to do it on a full size 1911. .....

In my experience standard practice for a right hander (or left hander with an ambidextrous safety) is to keep the thumb on the safety. That's how I was taught and how I shoot 1911s and BHPs. The large majority of 1911 guys and instructors manage the safety that way.

So when drawing a 1911 I (and most shooters I know) start by gripping the gun with the thumb on the safety (and finger off the trigger). After the gun clears the holster and begins to be rotated onto the target the safety is disengaged -- with the finger off the tripper and the thumb remaining on the safety. If the decision has been made to fire the trigger finger goes onto the trigger as the gun is indexed on the target.

That way no time is lost by disengaging the safety. It's done smoothly while coming up onto target and without any alteration of one's grip.

rpenmanparker · May 3, 2018

huntsman said:
Op what was your technique

Thumb over and and I was really good at it. But as mentioned elsewhere here that was strictly for a “range toy”. Until attending the course, range shooting off a counter in front of me was my only experience. The defensive situation is clearly a different animal.

Safe way to draw a 1911 in condition 1 by a left hander - part 2

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