Deer Hunting, what is your minimum cartridge?

mcb said:

I have read the 1000 ft-lb number on the internet many times but I have never found a good logical construct behind that number. Do you have a reference for where that number of 1000 ft-lbs comes from? It reads sort of like the old myth going around that you need to drink 8-glasses of water a day. I think its a fine number but its does not seem to have much solid scientific or historic support other than being repeated often. So far I have gone as low as 700 ft-lbs but if I end up using 300 BO sub-sonic it will be even lower (=< 500 ft-lbs).

Click to expand...

The 1000 ft lb thing was wisdom in hunting magazines like Outdoor Life back in the 50s and 60s when I was learning about hunting, rifles, and ballistics by reading every publication my uncle had on the subject. Used to LOVE to thumb through his old Gun Digests and read 'em cover to cover. Guys like Jack O'Conner (he may have even come up with it) wrote volumes on this and the merits of the .270 Winchester for game up to and including elk. If you're not as old as me, you probably never read any of this, but it was accepted wisdom, and rightly so, back then. This was an era before controlled expansion bullets and .22s just weren't loaded proper for anything bigger than woodchucks, anyway.

I do think 500 ft lbs is pushing things, myself. Even my .357 magnums out of my 6.5" Blackhawk are making near 800 ft lbs at the muzzle, but at striking range of 50 yards are just over 500 ft lbs. It's a big, flat bullet and doesn't need expansion. I don't have worries about that .357s kill power as I've used it on both hogs and deer at short ranges. But, it's not my go to hunting pistol, that'd be my .30-30 Contender. I have a .45 Colt blackhawk that's very accurate, but I've yet to kill anything with it and have only hunted with it a couple of times. I think big pistol bullets have an advantage at low energy levels over .22 caliber rifle rounds. They blow a big hole, which is a bit more important than energy at these low levels. There's NO PROBLEM following a blood trail left by a flat point Keith style .357 SWC. .22 caliber rifles, not so much. .30 caliber rifles? I don't know, my .30s pack at least 1600 ft lbs (7.63x39) at the muzzle.
I don't have any experience with weak .30 calibers.

mcb said:

I have read the 1000 ft-lb number on the internet many times but I have never found a good logical construct behind that number. Do you have a reference for where that number of 1000 ft-lbs comes from? It reads sort of like the old myth going around that you need to drink 8-glasses of water a day. I think its a fine number but its does not seem to have much solid scientific or historic support other than being repeated often. So far I have gone as low as 700 ft-lbs but if I end up using 300 BO sub-sonic it will be even lower (=< 500 ft-lbs).

Click to expand...

Nothing worth citing.

Just for new/inexperienced hunters it helps estimate an effective range and weeds out cartridges. I like to stay in it too for nothing more than peace of mind.

Not a big fan of trick shot hunting or hunting with too little a gun. There are people who can legitimately headshot a deer with a .17 and drop it. Then there are people with no experience who are convinced they can drop a deer at 600 yards with a .223 in their AR because that's what the gov lists the .223 effective range at.

I run into more of the latter, hence my distaste. If you know your gun, round, range, and yourself than kudos to you go hunting with whatever you want.

Personally, just want a good, general, all purpose round for deer, wild boar, wild dogs, coyotes, feral cats, etc. Really
don't want to waste time tailoring each round to a specific animal.

Mn Fats said:

I have a .30 carbine but Ive never tried it on whitetail. Always had better options.

Click to expand...

Even though my answer to the question, "Deer hunting, what is your minimum cartridge?" was "30 carbine, and it was one of the largest mule deer I've ever killed," I wouldn't want to do it again.
I sure hope I don't start a war here, and I don't want to get into the whole, long story as to exactly how I happened to be carrying a little 30 M1 Carbine when I spotted an absolutely huge mule deer buck standing broadside, no more than 20 feet away. But it happened. I shot him in the ribs, he flinched, took a couple of steps forward, stopped again, and I shot him behind his left ear. At the shot behind his ear, he went down, kicked a couple of times, and laid still.
When we got him back to camp and skinned out, we found the first bullet had broken a rib, but hadn't even penetrated through to the ribs on the other side. We didn't find any damage at all inside the rib cage on the opposite side of the deer. We had left that 30 Carbine bullet somewhere in the gut pile up on the hill.
If I hadn't have placed that second bullet behind his ear, the deer would have died an agonizing, slow death. I've never used a 30 carbine on another deer. I've killed deer with quite the number of "average" or "normal" deer hunting cartridges - 243s, 270s, 308s, 30-06s, and even a 44 Mag handgun and a 50 caliber muzzle loader, but never shot another deer with a 30 Carbine because of the lack of penetration I saw inside that one mule deer buck's rib cage.
Now while I know there are those that might say, "See there, bullet placement is everything," I also know that at 20 feet I could have placed a 22 CB Cap behind the deer's ear, and the results would have probably been the same as a 30 Carbine in his rib cage - agonizing, slow death. And while I know that are those that might say my beloved 308 Norma Magnum is over-powered for deer, I shoot it well, it doesn't mess up any more meat than any other big game cartridge, and I know that if I place a bullet from my 308 Norma Mag in the ribs of a large, mule deer buck, even at 300 yards (instead of a bullet from a 30 Carbine at 20 feet) that deer is not going to die an agonizing, slow death. He is going to drop dead very soon, if not immediately.

Most I’ve taken have fallen to a .308, but I consider .243 my personal minimum for a bottle-necked rifle cartridge. I’d consider .357 in a revolver or lever gun, but much prefer my .44 magnums.

Count Les Neins said:

Personally, just want a good, general, all purpose round for deer, wild boar, wild dogs, coyotes, feral cats, etc. Really
don't want to waste time tailoring each round to a specific animal.

Click to expand...

Depends on a lot. Range being one the largest.

If you want a light round...for anything under 300 yards that's smaller than a bear the .243 in your favorite bolt action is hard to beat. It's small, little recoil, and readily available.

For the "work/deer camp gun" one thing to keep in mind is ammo availability. Drop your ammo somewhere and lose it? Someone probably has a box of .243/30-30/30-06/.308 or check the closest gas station. 8mm Mauser? Maybe not....

For almost 20 years, it never occurred to me to use anything less than my .30-30 (although I was well aware plenty of successful hunters did)
A few seasons ago, I tried out .270, was pretty pleased with it, and figured that's as low as I would go....
And then came the .243 which shoots so much flatter, with minimal kick.
I know there are those here who can pull off amazing kills with smaller calibers than that, but .243 is probably my personal minimum.

I regularly use an AR in .300 blk. I'd call that my minimum acceptable rifle round for whitetail.

I even put it below good .223/5.56, but the .300 is legal in VA, and the .223 is not

Taken at 252 yards with a 204 Ruger.

I've also taken them with a 222 Remington and a 22-250 Remington. In fact, my longest shot on a deer was with a 22-250 at 360 yards; DRT in fact.

I've never used anything but my Marlin 336 chambered in .35 rem. Been using it for 43 years now. I have taken a lot of deer with it over time. Never thought about changing to something else.

This could help you decide what is the minimum for rabbit.

http://www.orchardphoto.com/DeathOregano.html

The 243 is what i have killed more deer with than anything else, and it has never even come close to failing me. Neither has my chosen 223 round on the last 4 I shot. Poorest performance has been with my SKS- no exit wounds, difficulty tracking. Luckily never lost one.

Bow hunting will teach you that it doesn't take a lot to kill a deer as long as you know your equipment, are proficient with it and know the limits, it's and yours.

.257 Roberts

Count Les Neins said:

Personally, just want a good, general, all purpose round for deer, wild boar, wild dogs, coyotes, feral cats, etc. Really
don't want to waste time tailoring each round to a specific animal.

Click to expand...

Well, deer and hogs rule your choice. Sure, .308 Winchester is overkill, but it'll take yotes, cats, etc just fine. I took a yote at about 370 yards with mine, great long range (to 400 yards is long range for me) caliber, yet it's just at home in the woods where 50 yards is the norm and, I can tell ya, it'd death to hogs AND deer woods ranges or plains ranges.

But, this describes a lot of cartridges. I just happened to have settled on the .308 and the little short action Remington M7. The RIFLE is what I wanted with this one, would have settled on 7-08 or .260 Remington if it were all I could find, but the .308 was my preference.

Cocked & Locked said:

.257 Roberts

View attachment 790648

Click to expand...

My old 722 Remington Roberts ain't NEAR that purdy!

Although deer can be shot/killed with just about any cartridge/caliber.

I have harvested a lot of big game with a .243, that is my minimum. It turned into a REAL deer cartridge when I started using 100NP's...

My minimum handgun cartridge is 44 magnum...

My minimum shotgun round is 20ga..

DM

Armored farmer said:

45 caliber round ball from a percussion muzzleloader

Click to expand...

For me a .40 launched with 60 grains of 3Fg at 50 yards, or the .45 and larger out to 100 yards, preferred is a .530 round ball launched with 70 grains of 3Fg....BUT...,
I'd also use a .357 Magnum 146 grain or heavier, from a lever-action rifle out to 100 yards without worries, or a hot .45 Colt.
I saw one reply where the cartridges were .40 S&W and .45 ACP on deer, and that's not legal where I live.

LD

My deer hunting is done almost exclusively with .50 and .54 caliber muzzleloaders. Sometimes i hunt wild hogs using a .223/5.56mm rifle. i'm well aware of the limitations of the .223/5.56mm: Bullet selection and shot placement are very important.

Cocked & Locked said:

.257 Roberts

View attachment 790648

Click to expand...

That's a very nice rifle. The FX-3 is my favorite scope.

Loyalist Dave said:

For me a .40 launched with 60 grains of 3Fg at 50 yards, or the .45 and larger out to 100 yards, preferred is a .530 round ball launched with 70 grains of 3Fg....BUT...,
I'd also use a .357 Magnum 146 grain or heavier, from a lever-action rifle out to 100 yards without worries, or a hot .45 Colt.
I saw one reply where the cartridges were .40 S&W and .45 ACP on deer, and that's not legal where I live.

LD

Click to expand...

My .40 percussion isn't Illinois legal for deer.

For my own hunting practices, it all depends how far I need to reach. I’ve taken deer with 32 H&R and 9mm Luger handguns, both did the job, as expected. I did have to pass on a lot of shots. I have witnessed deer taken with a .17 HMR 6” revolver on multiple occasions - that one isn’t for me. My dad took many deer with a .22LR Marlin 60, not for me either.

So for me, my bottom end is 9mm Luger and 32 H&R. I would hunt with both again, if so prompted. I’d rather have a .357/44 or a 10mm, but the .32Mag and 9x19 do well enough for me to say it was successful enough to garner repeating.

I’ve taken deer with .22-250, .223, .222, and .221 FB (such in an XP100 pistol). I’ve also taken deer with .458 Lott and .416 Rigby, and a gaggle of cartridges in between. It’s just not that hard to kill deer up close, especially if you’re not in thick brush such you don’t need to break them down and can tolerate 50-100yrds of run.

If it were legal, and an appropriate bullet available, I’m very interested to take a whitetail with a .17WSM - under the strictest of conditions.

.223 with Deer Hunter XP all day. That round is devastating on a chest cavity.

40sw. 165 gr golden saber.