EAA 10mm questions.

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MikeInOr

MikeInOr

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I went to a gun show this morning with money burning a hole in my pocket. Out of the whole show the one hand gun that really peaked my interest was the EAA Witness in 10mm for $550 (Ok, the Swedish Lahti also looked like it would fit into my C&R collection very nicely but it was $850). I really love the way the EAA felt in my hand and the weight with the all metal frame felt about right. I have been wanting to add a 10mm to my collection for quite a while.

The EAA looked like it was stainless... I can't find anywhere online if EAA makes an all stainless 10mm witness??? What is the "Wonder" finish? Is it just their version of Cerakote or similar? I found blued / stainless version and stainless / blued version but can't find any information about all stainless version. Is the "Wonder" finish just carbon steel "painted" a stainless color?

I have read about the frame and slide problems on the EAA 10mm's and 45's but that didn't deter me. I thought the EAA had was a single/double with a decocker like my Beretta 92 which I have had for 30 years and really like this configuration.. I was dissapointed to find that it only has a safety and not a decocker. The EAA at the show was zip tied so I couldn't work the action.

From what I can tell EAA is the only one to manufacture a 10mm CZ75 knock off? I have found other CZ75 clones with decockers but none in 10mm.

I don't like Glocks. I don't like their grip angle and don't shoot them well. I don't need yet another 1911... I have that platform pretty well covered. The only 10mm that I would really consider is a S&W 1006 or one of it's descendants. I always like the S&W 10mm's but I really liked the double stack 14 round magazine on the EAA. There aren't many other choices in 10mm except maybe a Bren Ten which is also a straight stack magazine and rare enough that magazines and parts are pretty much unavaliable. Maybe I will have to look into a Sig 320 in 10mm which is also a single stack mag... I think I would prefer a S&W 10mm.
 
Apparently the main weakness with these 10s is the small contact area where the guide rod makes contact with the frame. Some of their custom guns like my Hunter have a huge bushing attached to the guide rod. Four ones that don't people recommend the Henning guide rod.

Mike
 
For other cuz pattern 10mm guns look at the tanfoglio. It’s essentially the same gun with different features. My 10mm money is headed towards either a steel framed witness like what you handled, or a Rock Island 1911.
 
A Witness was my first 10mm. I love the feel of the gun...... but it was the brass flingingest thing I ever saw, stock. I put a heavier recoil spring in it and it got brass travel down to 20-30 feet but made it hard to cycle by hand. I still have it but shoot the Glock 20sf more and choose to carry it occasionally due to the lighter weight. The Witness just sits in the safe because I worry about it beating itself to death. Probably I should pursue a heavier hammer spring instead of the heavy recoil spring. Not using it seems dumb.
 
Some thoughts:
  • If your budget will support it, consider stepping up to the "Elite" series of Tangoglio Witnesses. Those are generally built to a higher standard, have some additional features, etc. Once you're up in those models, you're talking about guns that, as shooters, compare favorably with basically anything short of a $4k+ custom-built gun (IMO). If you want a DA trigger, take a look at a Witness Elite Stock II or Stock III. If you might like a SAO trigger, look at the Witness Elite Match or Elite Limited. If a longslide is appealing, check out the Hunter.
  • No decocker on current versions. You would quickly learn to love the safety. It's in the same basic place and configuration as a 1911 safety, which means you just put your thumb on it as you draw and use it as a thumbrest for your right hand... that will either feel natural or it will force you into a higher (better) grip.
  • The 10mm's do fling brass. They don't do this because of excessive slide velocity, and it is, therefore, not something that is appropriately managed with spring weights. They do this because the frames are designed to work with uppers across a bunch of calibers, from 9mm up through 40, 38 super, 45ACP, and 10mm (plus another weird one or two just for the Euro markets that we don't get here). That means the frame-mounted ejector (not extractor) has to be long enough to work with the much shorter 9mm cases. That means it is applying force for a long time to the 10mm (and 38 super and 45ACP) case during extraction... and all that force puts brass into orbit. That makes them exceedingly reliable in terms of ejection (I have put tens of thousands of rounds through the 3 10mm Tanfo's I have owned, and I have never had an ejection failure - brass comes back out). If you can't live with that, you can reprofile the ejector.
  • They are built in Italy, not Austria/Germany. There are sometimes some variances in parts. Things "drop in" better than on most 1911's, but not as well as on, say, Glocks. But they are slicker than Glocks. You can make the trigger much better than a Glock. Their weight makes them handle recoil better than a Glock.
  • There is good aftermarket parts support, but only from about 3 suppliers/manufacturers. You'll never find parts in your local gun store. You'll have to order anything you want online.
 
WestKentucky said:
For other cuz pattern 10mm guns look at the tanfoglio. It’s essentially the same gun with different features. My 10mm money is headed towards either a steel framed witness like what you handled, or a Rock Island 1911.
Click to expand...

Tanfoglio is the manufacturer. EAA is the U.S. importer. There are different models, but all EAA witnesses are Tanfo guns. They're not an alternative.
 
Stumper said:
A Witness was my first 10mm. I love the feel of the gun...... but it was the brass flingingest thing I ever saw, stock. I put a heavier recoil spring in it and it got brass travel down to 20-30 feet but made it hard to cycle by hand.... Probably I should pursue a heavier hammer spring instead of the heavy recoil spring....
Click to expand...

See my bullet point post above. Brass distance is not a useful indicator of slide velocity in long-cartridge (38 super/10mm auto/45 ACP) Tanfo's, at least if you're expecting distances similar to other pistols. The long ejector means that they really fling the brass, even at spring weights so heavy that you're getting reliability issues. Don't take the ejection pattern as being indicative of dangerous/harmful slide velocities.
 
I like my "CZ-inspired" Tanfoglios a LOT. Two of them are older Israeli surplus pistols known as the TA90. The other three were imported into the US by EAA and are called Witnesses. This 45acp one is the fanciest one I have. They're all good shooters and are my favorite semi-automatic pistols out of the many that I own.

TanfoglioTarget45

TanfoglioTarget45

 
TomJ said:
Are these frame problems still an issue?
Click to expand...

I don't believe so. They had a batch of slides on which the heat treatment was not proper about a decade ago(?). Lots of people have shot a heck of a lot of 10mm Tanfo's since then. They also had cracks develop at a spot near the mag release in some guns. These cracks were fixed with - a relief cut.
 
ATLDave, Thank you! No one has ever pointed that out to me before. To make it easier to recover brass is there both a length and profile change recommended? Does ejector re-profiling reduce firing pin/primer wiping also?
 
WestKentucky said:
Yes but tanfo branded guns have other options.
Click to expand...

Er, EAA is currently the sole importer. There are models that aren’t in the U.S. market because EAA doesn’t import them. Is that what you’re talking about? Or are you talking about the Elite series guns that EAA imports?

Note: there is supposedly another importer coming online later this year, mainly to import small-frame Stock I’s from what I have read.
 
I appreciate all the great replies!

My Beretta 92 has been my night stand gun for 30 years. I have taken a few courses with it in my younger days. I like having it chambered, decocked and safety on in my night stand. Flicking the safety and a double action trigger is second nature to me and I look at those extra few milliseconds as a positive since there are other members of my household. It doesn't sound like an EAA will offer this manual of arms.

I did REALLY like the feel of the EAA Witness and have always wanted a 10mm . The reputation of the EAA and other CZ clones always had me curious. After holding one and playing with it at the gun show I started to understand what all the fuss is about. I don't think it will replace my Beretta in the night stand but I do think I might pick one up for a range gun.

I already have 3 x 1911's. A Springfield nicely tricked out with a compensator, red dot and a trigger job. A Kimber in 9mm. And a lowly old Norinco with a trigger job that was my first 1911... and still my favorite... and the one I shoot best. I love 1911's! I just don't see the need for another one in 10mm. Because of the light target triggers on my 1911's I have never felt comfortable carrying cocked and locked. I haven't disengage the saftey on a 1911 in many many years. I just draw the gun and my thumb magically handles the safety automatically.

I appreciate a deliberate double action pull in my carry guns... Kahr CM9, XDs 45, LCP and occasionally a Keltec P32. Because of this I think an EAA in 10mm would be relegated mostly to being a range toy. As such I would have a hard time putting a lot of money into one.

I do reload. I don't mind loosing a few 9mm or even 45 acp cases. More expensive brass gives me a sick feeling to leave one behind on the range. I would shoot my 30 carbine more if it didn't throw the brass so far. I appreciate knowing about the brass flinging propencity of the EAA.

I did see some guns labeled Tanfoglio at the gun show in Tanfoglio boxes. These were all polymer frame guns, mostly desert tan in color. I like the Springfiled X's for plastic carry guns. I didn't find the Tanfoglio polymer guns nearly as appealing or pleasing to my hand as the all steel EAA.

I am kind of thinking that a Jericho / Baby Eagle might be more to my liking due to the availability of the decocker. A decocker would make a gun a much more useful tool and less of just a range toy. I understand the Jericho / Baby Eagle is some half breed from Tanfoglio and IMI? If it holds as nice as the Tanfoglio / EAA witness it might be more along the lines of what I am looking for. I don't really need another 9mm but the idea of a 9mm / .41 ae does have a lot of appeal. I HATE .40 S&W... those D&MN@D cases always jamb my Dillon 650 when they inevitably get mixed with my 9mm or 45acp brass. The necking on the .41 AE would make them a lot easier to sort out. A quick search makes it sound like .41ae components are very hard to come by though. I do have an abundance of 9mm and 9mm components... making the Jericho 941 very interesting. The Jericho 941 doesn't appear to come in stainless though??? This would leave me looking else where to scratch my big bore itch... (L5 in 50???)

I am a newb to EAA's... but the cracking problems seem to be ancient history... even though they will probably always follow the EAA's around to some degree. They didn't raise a concern for me while researching the gun. Heck, I am still waiting to eat my Beretta slide when it comes off the frame and flys directly into my face.

I think my biggest concern about the Tanfoglio's is having to lookup the blasted spelling every time I want to post about it. I can't count the number of times I have had to look up ljungman (+1)... best rifle / hardest spelling ever!
 
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MikeInOr said:
I I love 1911's! .... I haven't disengage the saftey on a 1911 in many many years. I just draw the gun and my thumb magically handles the safety automatically.
Click to expand...

The Tanfoglio/EAA/Witness safety is pretty much the same in terms of its location and operation, with the sole manual-of-arms difference being that it does not lock the slide. If you are comfortable with a 1911 safety, then a Tanfo' safety is going to be natural for you. If you want a DA pull, you will have to de-cock the hammer manually. I've seen people do that literally thousands of times, as Tanfos are quite popular as Production-division guns in USPSA and guns in that division start with the hammer down.

As for the idea that a "range toy" is not something to spend money on, that's just a question of priorities. Number of times I have shot at a human being in my life: zero. (And I hope that number stays the same until I die peacefully of old age.) Number of times I have shot at targets at a range or during a competition: hundreds of thousands, at least. (And I hope that number is much larger by the time of my death). The idea that we shouldn't put money into something that will actually be used extensively, but instead only spend money on things we hope never to use... I don't get it. But to each their own.
 
OP, I had the same questions, as I use a Glock 29 for a woods gun but don't shoot it as well as I'd like and have been looking for an alternative. I spoke with one of my LGS' about the polymer Witness and ordered one yesterday. Their customers have been happy with them, and this LGS offers an in house 10 year warranty in addition to EAA's warranty, and since it was bought through Gallery of Guns I have a third warranty on it. It's worth taking a chance on.
 
My EEA is a SA only model but I'm as comfortable manually decocking it as I am a modern revolver.
1. Get a good thumb hold on the hammer and pull the trigger.
2. Let the hammer move slightly past the sear and release the trigger
3. Lower to half-cock. If you slip the hammer will fall harmlessly on the half-cock notch because the trigger is not being held.
4. Hold the hammer firmly again and pull the trigger.
5. Let the hammer move slightly past the half-cock notch* and release the trigger.
6. Lower the hammer to uncock. If you slip, the drop safely will prevent the firing pin from striking the primer.

*-CZ75/EEAs do not have captive half-cock notches. These same instructions work for a Series 80 1911 except most 1911 hammers have a captive half-cock notch and you will have to pull the hammer back slightly first. That said, I've not afraid of decocking a Series 70 1911, although I'd probably to the off-hand thumb roll technique.

As ATLDave said, the safety does not lock the slide directly but it will lock the hammer in all 3 positions and if the hammer is down that does lock the slide.

Mike
 
I have a Witness Match and a Witness P-Carry. Both shoot well and I have .40 S&W kits for both which is what I use mainly because of ammo cost. Although not much use because I have so many other pistols. Got the fiber optic front sights for all of the above from Henning. This one is wearing a Streamlight TLR-4.

Tangy-DSCF0024_zps0e673cb7.jpg
 
Follow-up to the interchange with ATLDave regarding ejectors and brass flinging. I pulled the Witness out of the safe, looked at that LOOOONG ejector and thought-"Dave is making a lot of sense!". It seemed obvious that small changes were not going to make much difference given the great ejector length so I proceeded to reduce it by a tenth of an inch(technically .096). That was still going to give as much or more ejector protrusion as some of my other pistols. If I screwed it up the gun could wait in the safe for replacement parts. I took it out and shot it with the stock recoil spring. Instead of the 50 foot brass flight that it previously gave with the stock spring it was down to 20 feet. I then swapped the stock spring for an 18 pound Wolff and nothing really changed. Thanks ATLDave
 
My full size in wonder finish is a good shooter but I get FTF's. I suspect I need extra power mag springs as the jams are nose dives. The compact? Too much. I think a double spring recoil rod would be a fine upgrade for these pistols. They sure do point well. Also the CZ platform sucks for high power catridges as the slide design has limited grip area for racking the slide.
 
Stumper said:
A Witness was my first 10mm. I love the feel of the gun...... but it was the brass flingingest thing I ever saw, stock. I put a heavier recoil spring in it and it got brass travel down to 20-30 feet but made it hard to cycle by hand. I still have it but shoot the Glock 20sf more and choose to carry it occasionally due to the lighter weight. The Witness just sits in the safe because I worry about it beating itself to death. Probably I should pursue a heavier hammer spring instead of the heavy recoil spring. Not using it seems dumb.
Click to expand...
I have two 10mm’s and both of them throw brass into the next county. Just part of shooting a 10.
 
ATLDave said:
Did you put a heavier recoil spring in it?
Click to expand...

Yes heavier springs in both. Also tried henning rods although they don't cut it as I put in thin brass washers for buffers and they get the snot beat out of them. Dual recoil springs are probably the only way to go.
 
The heavier springs are probably where the jams are coming from. The really heavy (18-20 pound) springs only work with FULL power ammo and a very rigid grip. I generally find the 16 pound spring to be suitable with both real 10mm and less vigorous stuff.
 
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