What long guns are best to SBS/SBR?

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TTv2

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I've been interested in the Midland Arms Backpacker shotgun since I learned about it... I just love a folding shotgun. Because I've heard that Midland plans to come out with rifle barrels in the future that will drop right in the frame with no fitting required, I've been thinking about doing the paperwork to have a short barrel rifle/shotgun. I just like the idea of having an 8 to 10 inch shotgun, a 10 inch .22 with threaded barrel for a suppressor, and a full length rifle barrel for .357 or .223... all of these on one frame.

But before I start to seriously consider that, what long guns do you fellows think are the best to SBR or SBS or do you think that pistol braces have effectively killed the short barrel rifle and shotgun market?
 
Personally I have a Sig PM400 pistol in 7.62x39 11.5" and it's fine for any close-in rifle work. I never really saw the need for an SBS but my ex-wife did love her sawed off .410 with a pistol grip. So maybe I would see the need for a shockwave shooting Aquilla Minishells.
 
SBS and SBR is far from dead, but the pistol brace did change the game a whole bunch. Shockwave is changing the AOW game too. Shotguns are absolutely best to go from a long gun, but in a SBR I think stocked pistols are more reasonable for most things. You lose the advantage of rifle powders if you use a short barrel, and with a pistol cartridge you are usually gaining barrel length (balance) stability, velocity, range...I really like the MP5. But if you are specifically looking at long guns then straight wall or slightly tapered rounds will do best. Typical lever gun rounds are good, so I’m looking at the Winchester and Marlin guns. Not semiautos, but quick handling fun guns which would be just as much fun and almost as effective if they got a trip across the bandsaw.
 
SBS and SBR is far from dead, but the pistol brace did change the game a whole bunch. Shockwave is changing the AOW game too. Shotguns are absolutely best to go from a long gun, but in a SBR I think stocked pistols are more reasonable for most things. You lose the advantage of rifle powders if you use a short barrel, and with a pistol cartridge you are usually gaining barrel length (balance) stability, velocity, range...I really like the MP5. But if you are specifically looking at long guns then straight wall or slightly tapered rounds will do best. Typical lever gun rounds are good, so I’m looking at the Winchester and Marlin guns. Not semiautos, but quick handling fun guns which would be just as much fun and almost as effective if they got a trip across the bandsaw.
I agree with you about pistols with a stock, which is why I've quickly developed an interest in a 9mm AR pistol with a brace. That's something I wouldn't SBR because it's not worth it.

I would agree with you about a lever action with a short barrel, but I could make do with the Midland single shot in .357 or .44 Magnum with a short barrel.

I agree shotguns make the most sense given the fact that pistols can have a brace put on them now. That's why I've singled out the Midland as one of the very very few guns I would register for the tax stamp.
 
The biggest detractor to SBS is that you cut magazine capacity along with your barrel. I'd rather have an 18" shotgun with 5 or 6 rounds than a 12" shotgun with 3 any day of the week and twice on Sunday for "serious" use. So, to me, SBS is mostly the cool factor and range toy. I don't even have one, even though as an SOT, I could go out in the shop right now, lob a barrel (or barrels) off one of mine, engrave it and just file a form 2 online. I'll probably chop an old Remington model 31 or Ithaca 37 at some point for that cool factor and to entertain customers, but the shotguns I actually keep for HD are 18"-20" with fixed stocks.

If you want a short shotgun without the hassle, look at the Mossberg Shockwave, the Remington TAC-14 or the Black Aces DT-12, all title I "other" firearms. Just don't conceal them on your person, as they instantly become AOW.

SBR makes more sense, although I also agree that the pistol braces, especially the SB 15 PDW, have changed that game, too. I have just one, an AR, registered on an individual form 1. I do have 2 post sample machine guns with <16" tubes that belong to my company, but that's not really relevant to the discussion. The detractor to SBR vs. pistol w/brace is that you have to file a form 5320.20 to travel interstate with SBR/SBS/AOW/MG. No such nonsense for pistols.
 
Obviously AR-15 & AK47 are fun, even with braces out there stocks are much better and you can add a VFG if you want.
That being said, some other ideas I think are cool to SBR:
VZ-61 Skorpion (original)
PPS-43c (originally a WW2 SMG you can get them or build them in 9mm or 7.62x25 and the pistols already have the folding stock, just pinned)
Saiga 12 (I believe you can go down to 13.5" barrel before having to modify the gas system)
Side by Side double barrel shotgun
Nice lever action and thread the barrel and add suppressor :)
 
Pistol "braces" haven't put a dent in the SBR market. I'm transferring as many factory SBR's as ever and the number of my customers doing a Form 1 increases each month. Many do the pistol brace thing until their Form 1 comes back.

Best candidates? Depends on what your planned use is.
 
A couple of weeks ago I transferred a Barrett REC7 pistol to a coworker that is similar to the one shown below except that it's the pushrod (piston) model. I'm amazed that the ATF approved the "pistol brace" that was attached to the pistol. Well done to Barrett for getting that one passed.

Pistol.jpg
 
Pistol "braces" haven't put a dent in the SBR market. I'm transferring as many factory SBR's as ever and the number of my customers doing a Form 1 increases each month. Many do the pistol brace thing until their Form 1 comes back.

It's not that they take away from the SBR market so much as people who were not gonna spend the $200 and do the wait anyway will build/buy a pistol with brace. IOW, the number of SBRs being built and transferred may not have changed, but I promise there's been a huge spike in the sale of <16" barrels & uppers.
 
I think it's been going opposite. I was never interested in short barrel rifles until after the braces came out, I got one and realized I wanted SBR's so I started doing them now I have the bug. A lot of others did the same and when friends see us out they want to get their own and be in the cool kid's club too haha. E-filing as a Trust made it super easy up until 41F too.
 
It's not that they take away from the SBR market so much as people who were not gonna spend the $200 and do the wait anyway will build/buy a pistol with brace. IOW, the number of SBRs being built and transferred may not have changed, but I promise there's been a huge spike in the sale of <16" barrels & uppers.
But it HAS CHANGED......... as I said above, I'm transferring as many factory SBR's as ever and the number of my customers doing a Form 1 increases each month. Factory SBR's I've received this month? Four AR's. Inbound awaiting approval of Form 3's? Five Kriss factory SBR's, and three Colt 6933's.

The introduction of "arm braces" has only improved the market for SBR's. All it takes is shooting an arm brace from the shoulder once to realize a real shoulder stock is better in so many ways.

You would be surprised at the number of people who just shoot their AR pistol without a brace while waiting for their Form 1 to return.
 
The biggest detractor to SBS is that you cut magazine capacity along with your barrel. I'd rather have an 18" shotgun with 5 or 6 rounds than a 12" shotgun with 3 any day of the week and twice on Sunday for "serious" use......

I have a 12" 870 and a 12" 1100, both hold 5 rounds. Might want to take the plug out of yours.
 
I have a 12" 870 and a 12" 1100, both hold 5 rounds. Might want to take the plug out of yours.

Given that no SBS ships with a plug, and no one who shortens one would leave it in, and also the fact that I stated in plain English that I don't own an SBS in the same paragraph, this can't be taken as anything but a snide remark. I'd also love to see you get five 2-3/4" shells, 11-1/4 to 11-7/8 worth of shell, in a tube measuring 12" with end cap.
 
...You would be surprised at the number of people who just shoot their AR pistol without a brace while waiting for their Form 1 to return.
A while back, but I did that. Not super fun, but got my "pistol" zeroed, once the paperwork came in, Ordered a CTR and two days later had a carbine.

Braces are kinda dumb. Love my SBR. And I'd love to do this with a lot of guns, but have only done AR, as the changeable upper makes it very paperwork-efficient. 10" .300BLK and 12.5" 5.56, so far.
 
Given that no SBS ships with a plug, and no one who shortens one would leave it in, and also the fact that I stated in plain English that I don't own an SBS in the same paragraph, this can't be taken as anything but a snide remark. I'd also love to see you get five 2-3/4" shells, 11-1/4 to 11-7/8 worth of shell, in a tube measuring 12" with end cap.
I don't think he was being snide but accurate.
I have three 870 SBS's (two 14" and one 12")...........all three hold at least FIVE rounds of 2-3/4" shells with a standard 12" mag tube.
Think about how that might be.:evil:



















Four in the magazine tube, one in the chamber.;)
My 14" US Secret Service 870 has a one round extension.....so it's a 5+1.
 
I don't think he was being snide but accurate.
I have three 870 SBS's (two 14" and one 12")...........all three hold at least FIVE rounds of 2-3/4" shells with a standard 12" mag tube.
Think about how that might be.:evil:



















Four in the magazine tube, one in the chamber.;)
My 14" US Secret Service 870 has a one round extension.....so it's a 5+1.

I got it, but I don't count chamber as magazine capacity.
 
My favorite SBRs are the AR pistols with a real stock and the Mini-Draco AK pistol to which I added a side folder after getting the stamp.

My Mossberg Shockwave has completely removed my interest in doing an SBS -- I'm not much of a shotgunner anyways
 
I really, really like my Yugo M92PAP pistol that I SBR'd using a Stormwerkz folding hinge and a Manticore Arms triangle stock. I added a U.S. trigger pack and a U.S. krinkov muzzle brake. It is one awesome package that packs a punch and really barks. Perfect for keeping in your car when you are running around town or picking kids up from school. If terrorists strike, I can pull it out from under the car seat, flip the stock open, and let loose with 7.62x39.

I've thought about bracing pistols to save $200 and the wait for the tax stamp. However, the braces are often close to or just as much as a $200 stamp and a stock (especially for AR SBRs). Plus, you can use vertical grips if your rifle is SBR'd vice a braced pistol. If braces were the same price as a collapsible AR stock and also offered collapsing capability, I would likely just brace my AR pistols and use either an angled fore-grip (can still be used on pistols) or no grip.
 
Heres my Ruger 77/357. Its my favorite general outdoors, camping, boating, off road, woods exploring rifle. The barrel is around 11 inches and threaded 5/8X24 with Williams Shorty front sight and a liberty Mystic suppressor. I usually carry .357 158 grain SJHP in one mag and a second mag of .38 special 158 LRN which is subsonic and probably as quiet as a .22 suppressed.

Dan
 

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Heres my Ruger 77/357. Its my favorite general outdoors, camping, boating, off road, woods exploring rifle. The barrel is around 11 inches and threaded 5/8X24 with Williams Shorty front sight and a liberty Mystic suppressor. I usually carry .357 158 grain SJHP in one mag and a second mag of .38 special 158 LRN which is subsonic and probably as quiet as a .22 suppressed.

Dan
That is a handy little rifle! Always wanted to build one of those...
 
Waiting on my Form 1 to SBR one of my AR15 rifles. The upper I will use for this is currently on a pistol lower I built just for this purpose. Having the pistol lower allowed me to proceed with building the upper, verifying that it is functional, sighting in, and dialing in buffer weight without breaking the law with "constructive intent".

My AR pistol does not have a brace. It's just a neoprene foam sleeve over the buffer tube. I can shoot it pretty well by just getting a cheek weld on the tube and compensating for lack of stock with a little firmer grip, but there is absolutely no replacement for having a true stock. It isn't as stable.

The foam sleeve was a beeotch to install. It will make me a little sad when it's no longer needed.
 
I guarantee it's the AR, because once you SBR the lower you can do whatever you want. Long barrel? Short barrel? Stock? No stock? Brace? All A-OK.

And chamber it in 300BLK, and you carry 45 acp muzzle ballistics to 200 yards from an 8" barrel using all standard AR parts.

There's no reason not to SBR an AR-15 to 300BLK if you have any inkling towards a pistol caliber SBR or an AR with a sub-12" barrel.
 
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