357 MAX Encore deer loads

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gotboostvr

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So I've finally managed to source a 357 Maximum (not magnum) barrel for my Encore carbine for deer here in Ohio and I'm starting to get the whole package together.

Picked up a 17" barrel, just bought a new Vortex 1-6x24 and a box of 180gr XTP's but could be persuaded to go another direction for bullets.

I've got 2400 (a bunch) IMR 4227 (only powder I use for 44mag) and a little H110 (trying to get rid of) but I hear good things of 300-MP. Which powder for best velocity are you using?

I still need brass and was thinking of using Starline and have heard to stay away from Jamison unless necessary.

What advice/pet loads do y'all have for me?
 
1. I wouldn't go with 180 grain bullets as they're not needed. You'll get better velocity and trajectory with 158 grain bullets such as the Hornady XTP and they'll work fine for deer.

2. I have not loaded for a 357 Maximum so I have no definite powder recommendations. Based on my experience with other straightwalled cartridges, I'd probably try 2400 first, IMR 4227 second and if those weren't satisfactory, would try H110 and/or Blue Dot. I use 2400 for 460 S&W Magnum loads and IMR 4227 for 357 Herrett loads.

3. I use Starline loads for 357 Herrett loads. My only complaint; one piece of Starline brass had a too deep primer pocket so that the firing pin couldn't ignite the primer. I've never used Jamison brass.
 
1. I wouldn't go with 180 grain bullets as they're not needed. You'll get better velocity and trajectory with 158 grain bullets such as the Hornady XTP and they'll work fine for deer.

Even though this is my "stand" rifle, there are shots aplenty at very short range. I'd be worried about the 158gr XTP's disintegrating at such ranges. Even the 158gr FP XTP has a "top speed" of 1800fps which I would be well above at <50yrds.
 
I have done quite a bit of testing with different powders and water jug testing bullets in the max. First starline brass and Remington brass are good quality. Second you can ignore all the load data in the reloading books, it’s all developed for the super mag revolvers and is not much use in an encore or contender. The max loads listed in the books are safe starting loads in a TC.

The biggest problem with the 357 max is there arnt many bullets that are strong enough to hold tegether at the velocities the 357 max can do. The best bullet in my opinion for the 357 max is the Hornady 180 xtp. It fills the case better and will shoot flatter than any of the 158’s. The most accurate powder I’ve tested is H110. Use a small rifle magnum primer and fill the case with H110 up to the base of the bullet. Don’t compress it, just fill it to the base. This will be about 22 grains for the 180 xtp and 23 grains for a 158. This will be the max load and it works with any 158-180 bullet I’ve tried in the max. You can back down a grain or so if needed but accuracy will suffer if you go down any further. These shoot moa for me in my 13” contender pistol and I’ve shot hundreds of them. For hunting the ideal impact velocity for this bullet is about 1800-1900 FPS. Anything over 2000 fps and they will come apart. Drop is quite manageable out to 200 yards.

For lighter loads the 158 Sierra JSP works really well. It has a harder core than other 158 bullets and can be driven pretty hard. They shoot great for me with H110 and small rifle magnum primers. These will also hold together well at 1800-2000 fps.

For less than full power loads try 2400 or 4227. These powders need to be worked up as they are fast enough to overpressure in the max if you push it too far. These will both reduce well and are accurate but do not have the velocity potential of H110. I have tried most of the powders slower than H110 such as reloader 7, 4198, 1680 and none of them work, they are too slow. 1680 works but the muzzle blast is horrendous and it’s not as accurate as H110. Never tried 300mp. I found H110 to be ideal and stopped looking. Lil gun would also probably work but it’s dangerously unstable at low temps and I won’t use it.
 
Which powder for best velocity are you using?
I have a 16" MGM Contender barrel. I've gotten highest velocities using Lil' Gun, as compared to H110, AA1680, or N110. This is with bullets ranging from 140 gr. FTX through a 200 gr. solid.

With the 180 gr. XTP, you can seat to the rear crimp groove to increase powder capacity. All of the load data I've seen is for the shorter OAL, so when you seat long, be sure to work up slowly. But it gives you a bit more gas pedal.
 
Even though this is my "stand" rifle, there are shots aplenty at very short range. I'd be worried about the 158gr XTP's disintegrating at such ranges. Even the 158gr FP XTP has a "top speed" of 1800fps which I would be well above at <50yrds.

Trust me. They won't disintegrate at close range. I've used them on Black Wildebeest and Springbok at much shorter range than 50 yards with a 357 Herrett and they didn't disintegrate.

It is a common misconception that if a bullet disintegrates it's bad. NOT true unless the disintegration prevents penetration to vital organs. In fact, a bullet that disintegrates having penetrated to vital organs will give you the most dramatic knockdown; i.e., DRT.

But that's beside the point, the 158 grain XTPs will work fine for your application.
 
What about using a bullet designed for the 35 Rem? I haven't seen any 180/200gr Corelocks, but they might hold together at max velocity a bit better.
 
I have a 16" MGM Contender barrel. I've gotten highest velocities using Lil' Gun, as compared to H110, AA1680, or N110. This is with bullets ranging from 140 gr. FTX through a 200 gr. solid.

With the 180 gr. XTP, you can seat to the rear crimp groove to increase powder capacity. All of the load data I've seen is for the shorter OAL, so when you seat long, be sure to work up slowly. But it gives you a bit more gas pedal.

Loading in the 2nd groove gives an extra 2 grains of capacity of H110 but I wasn't going to mention it since I had my barrel custom built to seat that bullet long and I don't know if it will chamber in all barrels. My pet load in my 357 max is the 180 XTP in the 2nd groove with 24 grains of H110. Seated in the first groove 22 grains is a good load.

What about using a bullet designed for the 35 Rem? I haven't seen any 180/200gr Corelocks, but they might hold together at max velocity a bit better.

Some 357 max barrels are only 1:20 twist and will not stabalize bullets over 180 grains. Speer makes a 180 grain spire point meant for the 35 remington that some use. I've seen some ballistics tests where they did not expand bellow 2000 fps so I have never tried them. Hornady used to make a 180 grain spire point SSP (single shot pistol) bullet that was ideal but its long discontinued.

Another option to consider would be a 180 grain hard cast gas checked bullet. You should be able to really put the heat on that with a hard alloy in rifle barrel.
 
Speer makes a 180 grain spire point meant for the 35 remington that some use. I've seen some ballistics tests where they did not expand bellow 2000 fps so I have never tried them. Hornady used to make a 180 grain spire point SSP (single shot pistol) bullet that was ideal but its long discontinued.

Another option to consider would be a 180 grain hard cast gas checked bullet. You should be able to really put the heat on that with a hard alloy in rifle barrel.

I'd love to secure a stash of those SSP's. I've heard nothing but good things about them.

Do you (or anyone else) have a suggestion for a good commercial cast boolit? I might look at what Rim Rock (or whoever it is that supplies Buffalo Bore) or Matt's Bullets. I had good luck with their bullets in my 500 mag.
 
I'd love to secure a stash of those SSP's. I've heard nothing but good things about them.

Do you (or anyone else) have a suggestion for a good commercial cast boolit? I might look at what Rim Rock (or whoever it is that supplies Buffalo Bore) or Matt's Bullets. I had good luck with their bullets in my 500 mag.

I have had excellent results with bullets from Montana Bullet Works in my 444 marlin. I have never shot cast in my 357 max but I imagine the case would work well with cast. Its basically a 2/3rd scale 444.
 
I have had excellent results with bullets from Montana Bullet Works in my 444 marlin. I have never shot cast in my 357 max but I imagine the case would work well with cast. Its basically a 2/3rd scale 444.

Thanks for the tip! They have a 180gr WFNGC that looks like it'd be just the ticket. Cheaper than Rim Rock's similar offering too.
 
Loading in the 2nd groove gives an extra 2 grains of capacity of H110 but I wasn't going to mention it since I had my barrel custom built to seat that bullet long and I don't know if it will chamber in all barrels.
In general, T/C factory barrels tend to have long throats. The two I've had in .357 Max could seat the bullet to the rear groove and then some. Likewise, the MGM barrel is throated long enough for this.

But as you allude to, it's always best to verify.
 
Here is some bullet info to chew on

https://dandtcustomgunworks.websitetoolbox.com/post/357-max-test-5264779

http://www.suitorsgarage.com/gunstuff/35remington/35rempart2.html

Here is some of my own testing. I use gallon milk jugs full of water which are actually more destructive to a bullet than hitting a real animal.

180 XTP shot into water jugs at 100 yards. 2000 FPS muzzle velocity

image.jpg

158 Sierra JSP into water jugs at 100 yards. I think 2200 fps muzzle velocity or so

image.jpg

I've blown up quite a few more in testing. These two are the best two revolver bullets I have tried. They hold together and both will shoot moa in my 13" contender pistol.

image.jpg
 
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I think for now I'll try 4227 and either the 180XTP or the WFNGC and see which shoots better since I don't have a chrono to verify I'm getting the velocity necessary for the rifle bullets.

Once I get a chrono and start chasing velocity that's subject to change.
 
You will find that 4227 burns best when it fills the case. In the mag I load it slightly compressed. Light charges leave some residue.
 
I've had great results with a gas checked, medium hardness, home cast Lyman 358627 bullet over 18.5grns IMR4227 and sparked off by a Rem 7 1/2 primer. Seat the boolit to the lower crimp groove.
 
I've had great results with a gas checked, medium hardness, home cast Lyman 358627 bullet over 18.5grns IMR4227 and sparked off by a Rem 7 1/2 primer. Seat the boolit to the lower crimp groove.

That's a 215gr SWC right?

I think that's a little heavier than I'd need for even the biggest buck and I'd rather trade a little weight for velocity.
 
That's a 215gr SWC right?

I think that's a little heavier than I'd need for even the biggest buck and I'd rather trade a little weight for velocity.
Yes it is 215 grains. It may be heavy, but it has high sectional density, and flies flatter than a 44 magnum. Additionally, it will penetrate deeper, and if you use a softer alloy, it will expand somewhat.
 
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