Favorite Load Recipes for CFE Pistol

I load .380 Auto, 9mm and 40S&W.

.380 Auto
Mixed Brass
X-treme 100gr RNFP
CCI No. 500 primer
3.6 grains CFE-P with +/- 0.1 variance goal
COL 0.985 +/- 0.005

9mm:
Mixed Brass
RMR 124gr RN FMJ
CCI No. 500 primer
4.85 grains CFE-P with +/- 0.1 variance goal
COL 1.11 +/- 0.005

.40S&W
Mixed Brass
RMR 165gr RNFP
CCI No. 500 primer
6.8 grains CFE-P with +/- 0.1 variance goal
COL 1.130 +/- 0.005

I've also use the Winchester Small Pistol primer for the above. I can't feel/hear any difference or see any accuracy variation on a paper target between the two. There may be a slight velocity variation but would need a chrono to get the hard data.

My favorite 9mm CFEP load is a Berry's 115gr. RN with 5.6gr. of CFEP at an OAL of 1.13". It's a full power load, which is what CFEP does best. Very accurate. Start about 5.0 gr. and work it up.

Berry's 115gr. plated RN 0.356"
5.6gr. CFEP
CCI SPP
RP brass
OAL: 1.13"
CZ P10C
Average: 1151.1 FPS
SD: 13.2 FPS
Min: 1129 FPS
Max: 1172 FPS
Spread: 43 FPS

The in-house RMR 115gr. FMJ also shoots great but requires ~0.2gr. less charge for a given velocity. I see 5.6gr. with the Berry's and 5.4 with the RMR as max loads (which is where CFEP shines 9 times out of 10).

If you list what bullets you intend to use I probably have more data that would be of use.

I should add that for light plinking loads you often want a faster burning powder. I like Alliant Sport Pistol for 9mm and 40, but also use Titegroup in some applications (like 38 special). W231/HP38 is also an option for lighter loads in the calibers you mention. CFEP tends to improve steadily as you approach the max load. It's not as good for light plinking loads in most calibers.

Light loads is subjective at best as is felt recoil and only you are the best person to determine that. Also someone's so called light loads may not work in your gun causing cycling issues. Start at the low end of the published data for CFE and the bullet you are loading and work up your loads until your gun cycles properly, is accurate enough for you and obtains the light recoil you are comfortable with.

I've noticed that even full power loads feels soft in my planet of the apes carbine.
Which of course allows "accurate" rapid fire follow up rounds.

Mark,
I'm with Capt. Roll on his 40

Capt.Roll said:

.40S&W
Mixed Brass
RMR 165gr RNFP
CCI No. 500 primer
6.8 grains CFE-P with +/- 0.1 variance goal
COL 1.130 +/- 0.005

Click to expand...

Same 40 make up, chrono on 10rd AVG 1037fps. Smooth shooter.

Thanks for posting that 10 round average fps. I use that same load for IDPA and USPSA matches. Steel easily falls at 25 yards (ha, when I can hit it) and the recoil is very manageable to get back on target for a second shot. I've loaded some rounds dropping 7.4 grains and the .40 gets a bit snappy. For an extra 110 fps I'm not sure I'm getting any improvement down range.

7.4gr. of CFEP with a plated 165gr. is indeed stout and almost exactly 110fps faster at 1151 average in my testing. The lowest I tried was 7.1gr.; I guess I should try 6.8. I like 5.1gr. of Titegroup at the ~1035fps level, but have plenty of CFEP..

Capt.Roll said:

Thanks for posting that 10 round average fps. I use that same load for IDPA and USPSA matches. Steel easily falls at 25 yards (ha, when I can hit it) and the recoil is very manageable to get back on target for a second shot. I've loaded some rounds dropping 7.4 grains and the .40 gets a bit snappy. For an extra 110 fps I'm not sure I'm getting any improvement down range.

Click to expand...

Amazing what even .3 of a grain can do. Tried CFE at 7.1 in the 40 and just flat out did not like the recoil. For range loads I didn't need anything super hard hitting anyway, but do like the 6.8...sooo that's where it stays.Good luck in the matches!

Some chrono #s
All charges as thrown after setting measure-Lee auto drum in this case

This load was worked up to try to be a just a bit above 165 PF load.
Was playing with CFE-P since I had some
5" .45 1911
Mixed range brass S+B LP
Name Xtreme 200 SWC 6.4 CFE-P 1.20
Number of Shots 5
Extreme Spread 31
Average 857
Standard Deviation 12
Power Factor Average 171
Power Factor Low 167
Power Factor High 173
Shot List Index Velocity Bullet Weight Ft/Lbs Power Factor
Xtreme 200 SWC 6.4 CFE-P 1.20 1 854 200 324 171
Xtreme 200 SWC 6.4 CFE-P 1.20 2 866 200 333 173
Xtreme 200 SWC 6.4 CFE-P 1.20 3 865 200 332 173
Xtreme 200 SWC 6.4 CFE-P 1.20 4 835 200 310 167
Xtreme 200 SWC 6.4 CFE-P 1.20 5 865 200 332 173
This load shot just ok but I didn't get good results with the 200gr Xtreme plated SWCs, much better with lead or coated lead.
Tried a couple different loads/powders with them.

This was supposed to be a 125 PF load in 9mm but fell a little short
5" 9mm 1911
Mixed range brass S+B SP
String: 7
Date: 3/26/2017
Time: 11:04:33 AM
Grains: 147
Hi Vel: 842
Low Vel: 825
Ave Vel: 832
Ext Spread: 17
Std Dev: 6
XTreme 147 1.16 OAl 3.6 CFE-P
Velocity Power Factor Ft/Lbs
828 121.716 223.759
836 122.892 228.103
825 121.275 222.14
842 123.774 231.389
830 122.01 224.841

4gr got me there but if you are after soft and don't care about PF 3.6 gave perfect function in my gun
String: 8
Date: 3/26/2017
Time: 11:05:53 AM
Grains: 147
Hi Vel: 881
Low Vel: 864
Ave Vel: 872
Ext Spread: 17
Std Dev: 7
XTreme 147 1.16 OAl 4.0 CFE-P
Velocity Power Factor Ft/Lbs
881 129.507 253.321
866 127.302 244.768
873 128.331 248.741
864 127.008 243.639
876 128.772 250.454
Both these shot well

Not light this was a listed MAX .380 load
Kahr P380 2.5" barrel
String: 2
Date: 8/14/2016
Time: 9:23:07 AM
Grains: 100
Hi Vel: 862
Low Vel: 843
Ave Vel: 853
Ext Spread: 19
Std Dev: 7
380 100gr Xtreme RNFP 4.0 CFE-P (didn't note the OAl on the chrono data )
Velocity Power Factor Ft/Lbs
862 77.58 148.477
843 75.87 142.004
855 76.95 146.075
850 76.5 144.372
856 77.04 146.417


ES and SD all all loads where pretty good given mixed range brass and charges as thrown.

I run 7.0 with a plated 165 in a m&p40c.
At 7.5 it reminded me of shooting 357 loads in a 4" revolver. Not unpleasant, but not plinking ammo.

For 9mm & CFE

Powder: 5.0g
Bullets: Hornady 115 FMJ
Brass: Starline
Primer: Winchester
OAL: 1.15"

Im averaging a 1090 fps out of a 4.5" barrel. Nice and smooth and Im getting 0.9" - 1.1"; 10rnd shot groups at 25 yards from a ransom rest with this load.

I just picked up 1lb of CFE. I chose it because I could use it for target loads for 9mm and .357mag. I found that 5gr worked well for both calibers (too lazy to adjust powder charger.) I used a Berry’s 115gr RN, 1.14 oal CCI 500 primer for 9mm. For the .357 I used a cast 158lswc and same primer. Bullet seated to the next to last lube groove, (tumble lube bullet) it’s a 38sp load in a .357 case. Both shot well for me and streamlined the loading process.

Welcome to THR Barry
lots of great people here.

6.9

markr6754 said:

Gents,

Just picked up 1 lb of CFE Pistol. I load 380 ACP, 9mm Luger, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP. I have dies for 38 Spcl/357 Magnum, but haven’t loaded any. I’ve also never loaded the 40 S&W, but I have primed cases ready to do so.

Appreciate any light loads that work well in these calibers. All for plinking, indoor range shooting. No chrono available.

Thanks for all suggestions.

Mark

Click to expand...

40S&W. 165grain Xtreme flat point 6.9 Grains of CFE Pistol COL of 1.125.

As I said a few posts above Im currently using 5.0g with Hornday 115 fmj's. I'd like to test and compare with 115 HAP's & XTP's later this week. Im gonna run a full test of each but just wondering if anyone knew the CFE adjustments between these three projectile types?

Since we are discussing CFE Pistol, I have a question or two. The load data below is published and available from the Hodgdon Reloading Data Center. For my question, assume that the only variable that changes is the powder charge; bullet weight, diameter, case volume, C.O.L., etc. remain the same for every round loaded.

165 GR. BERB FP

Manufacturer: Hodgden
Powder: CFE Pistol
Bullet Diameter: 0.401”
C.O.L.: 1.125”

STARTING LOAD
Grs. 6.9
Vel. (ft/s) 1124
Pressure 28,000 PSI

MAXIMUM LOAD
Grs. 7.5
Vel. (ft/s) 1205
Pressure 33,900 PSI

My question; there is 0.6 grains difference between the starting and maximum loads which yields a velocity change of 81 ft/s. For those of you with chronograph data or based on your reloading experience, will every increase in powder of .1 grains from the starting load yield a velocity increase of 13.5 ft/s?

Conversely, if I wanted a round that had a velocity of 81 ft/s less than the starting load, could I reduce the charge .6 Grs., say to 6.3 Grs and be close to that velocity?

I guess in other words, is there a linear relationship between velocity and powder charge within the narrow range of starting and maximum Load data? At some point, friction may have a greater impact on velocity, especially when reducing the powder charge.

If all things were actually equal including the barrel size and test fixture used than I would say yes. However I found with me Im usually running a bit hotter/faster than published data despite the fact I use a longer OAL. Looking at my logs I see the velocities from 0.1g to 0.1g varied between 13-36 fps.

Capt.Roll said:

STARTING LOAD
Grs. 6.9
Vel. (ft/s) 1124
Pressure 28,000 PSI

MAXIMUM LOAD
Grs. 7.5
Vel. (ft/s) 1205
Pressure 33,900 PSI

My question; there is 0.6 grains difference between the starting and maximum loads which yields a velocity change of 81 ft/s. For those of you with chronograph data or based on your reloading experience, will every increase in powder of .1 grains from the starting load yield a velocity increase of 13.5 ft/s?

Click to expand...

It's fairly linear over the 28-34K PSI range. It's hard to say precisely as it's hard to get every charge exactly .1gr. from the last, but it's fairly linear over this range.

Capt.Roll said:

Conversely, if I wanted a round that had a velocity of 81 ft/s less than the starting load, could I reduce the charge .6 Grs., say to 6.3 Grs and be close to that velocity?

Click to expand...

As you move out of the range of pressures the powder was designed to operate in the behavior will get less linear. To be honest 6.3gr. is a mis-application of this powder - you should be using something in the burn-rate range of Titegroup/Sport Pistol/HP38 (or faster) if that's the sort of velocity you seek. Doing so will get them in their respective design ranges, producing more consistent velocities, vastly more complete burning (cleaner) as well as ensuring adequate slide velocity. In many cases the accuracy will be better as well, but it's possible to happen upon a smokey and dirty under-pressure load that is accurate if you try enough things. I'd rather put the effort into isolating a higher-pressure load that also shoots well.

Capt.Roll said:

I guess in other words, is there a linear relationship between velocity and powder charge within the narrow range of starting and maximum Load data? At some point, friction may have a greater impact on velocity, especially when reducing the powder charge.

Click to expand...

As noted, the behavior will be much more linear in this charge range than below it. Friction does become a larger factor but many powders, and nearly all in the burn-rate range of CFEP will get rather less linear a full 10% beneath their recommended starting charges.

This is what the chrono data I have collected for 165 plated with CFEP shows. It's very linear from 7.1-7.4gr. 7.4-7.5 picks up a bit more but it's possible my 7.5gr. charges were more like 7.55gr. and/or the 7.4gr. ones were more like 7.35gr. and I wouldn't have known with my 0.1gr. scale.

7.5gr - 1179fps
7.4gr - 1151fps
7.3gr. - 1139fps
7.2gr. - 1127fps
7.1gr. - 1110fps

Thanks Philly, Ray for your thoughts.

As usual, it's best to stay within the ranges recommended by the powder manufacturer. My question was based more on curiosity versus looking for the optimum performing load; I'm pretty happy with the CFE and the performance I'm seeing/feeling with my reloads on the .380, 9mm and .40S&W.

My crystal ball does show a chronograph at some point in the future. Since I'm not likely to experiment with different powders and bullets I just have to get past the cash outlay versus how much I'd use it. Although I do think it would be a cool toy.

ray15 said:

As noted, the behavior will be much more linear in this charge range than below it.

Click to expand...

Two observations:

• Linearity (or loss of same) is often how max loads get set. You can see this in manuals that list the measured peak pressure - you will often see published peaks well below the SAAMI limit for the cartridge. That's often because the test lab saw strongly non-linear results beginning above that charge weight.
• On the other hand, most load manuals for most powders simply use max-minus-10% as the starting load. There are some powders that stay linear and even clean-burning well below this level in many applications. I don't believe it's accurate to say that, across the board, you can/should assume non-linearity below a start load (excepting things like H110, which nearly always comes with some notation about not reducing below a specific level).
• Here's one way you can tell this is correct: look at two calibers that have the same diameter bullet, and not-wildly-off case capacities, but materially different peak pressures. Let's pick out a 125 Hornady XTP .357-diameter bullet and look at loads using AA #2 in .38 spl, .38 spl. +P, and .357 mag.
  • 38 special charge range: 4.8 max, 4.3 suggested start load (which is just max minus 10%);
  • 38 special + P charge range: 5.3 max, 4.8 suggested start load (which is both max minus 10% and exactly where the non+P loads left off); and
  • .357 charge range: 8.0 max, 6.8 suggested start load.
  • While the somewhat larger case of the .357 naturally reduces pressure a bit and effectively "moves the window" a bit higher, it seems unlikely that AA #2 goes non-linear at 6.8 grains in .357, but not until 4.3 in a 38 special. But let's set that aside: look at the + P data. The load certainly did not go non-linear at 4.8 if the loader is trying to load +P, but stays linear to at least 4.3 in the same case under the same bullet just because the loader isn't thinking "mmm, good +P stuff."
• The non-linearity below-start is not constant across powders. Some powders don't mind being downloaded. Some throw a fit. Some have a big window of really-decent performance, while some have a narrow window.

Dudedog said:

Welcome to THR Barry
lots of great people here.

Click to expand...

Thank you. Every thIng I’ve ever seen on THR has been great!

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

Some on my first 9mm loads were CFE-Pistol. I found that it likes to be at the upper end of the pressure curve. Here is a couple of loads. NOTE the second two loads both EXCEED the MAX loads published by Hodgdon.

All shot from a Beretta M9A1. The over MAX 4.9g load was the most accurate. There were no overpressure signs were observed by myself and two other experienced reloaders. We check at each step of the ladder. Working up to these loads were a batch of 4.3 and 4.5 grain loads. They were very black and sooty. Things did not clean up until the MAX was exceeded with the 4.9 and 5.1 grain loads - CAUTION these are over the MAX load for this projectile.

Created: 09-22-2017 02:00:49 PM
Description: 4.7g. CFE-P
Notes 1: HAP 125 gr.
Notes 2:
Distance to Chrono (FT): 0.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight (gr): 125.000
Altitude (FT): 0.0
Temp: 70 °F
BP: 29.94 inHG
Shots
# FPS FT-LBS PF
9 1020 286.51 126.48
8 1019 285.95 126.36
7 1029 291.59 127.60
6 1023 288.20 126.85
5 1007 279.25 124.87
4 1014 283.15 125.74
3 1020 286.51 126.48
2 1026 289.89 127.22
1 982 265.56 121.77
Average: 1015.56
StdDev: 14.13
Min: 982
Max: 1029
Spread: 47
True MV: 1015.56

CAUTION: The following load EXCEEDS the MAX loads published by Hodgdon
Created: 09-22-2017 02:06:45 PM
Description: 4.9g CFE-P This is over MAX (4.8g)
Notes 1: 125g HAP
Notes 2:
Distance to Chrono (FT): 0.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight (gr): 124.000
Altitude (FT): 0.0
Temp: 69 °F
BP: 29.94 inHG
Shots
# FPS FT-LBS PF
10 1065 312.35 132.06
9 1076 318.83 133.42
8 1060 309.42 131.44
7 1040 297.85 128.96
6 1047 301.88 129.83
5 1047 301.88 129.83
4 1064 311.76 131.94
3 1040 297.85 128.96
2 1062 310.59 131.69
1 1071 315.88 132.80
Average: 1057.20
StdDev: 12.83
Min: 1040
Max: 1076
Spread: 36
True MV: 1057.20

CAUTION: The following load EXCEEDS the MAX loads published by Hodgdon
Created: 09-22-2017 02:10:31 PM
Description: 5.1g CFE-P This is over MAX (4.8g)
Notes 1: 125g HAP
Notes 2:
Distance to Chrono (FT): 0.00
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.000
Bullet Weight (gr): 124.000
Altitude (FT): 0.0
Temp: 70 °F
BP: 29.91 inHG
Shots
# FPS FT-LBS PF
10 1112 340.52 137.89
9 1117 343.59 138.51
8 1109 338.69 137.52
7 1087 325.38 134.79
6 1091 327.78 135.28
5 1117 343.59 138.51
4 1103 335.03 136.77
3 1095 330.19 135.78
2 1121 346.06 139.00
1 1098 332.00 136.15
Average: 1105.00
StdDev: 11.94
Min: 1087
Max: 1121
Spread: 34
True MV: 1105.00

Published here for your entertainment only. Please be careful.

ATLDave said:

I don't believe it's accurate to say that, across the board, you can/should assume non-linearity below a start load (excepting things like H110, which nearly always comes with some notation about not reducing below a specific level).

Click to expand...

Much of this depends on the operative velocity range. If you're talking about a 1500fps .357 load, there's lot's of downloading potential to talk about. If looking at a 800fps 38 load, you aren't going to download nearly as much before sticking a bullet. Friction does become a more dominant factor as velocity decreases, so all powders will get progressively less linear in their P/V response when downloaded as velocity necessarily decreases while friction is largely unchanged. This is not to say all powders are unusable or unstable when downloaded, just that their most linear response will occur in the recommended charge weight range.