I am beginning making a 1911 from scratch. In the past year I have begun taking machining classes at my university and have been apprenticing with a gunsmith. Thus I have access to an EDM, CNC Machines, Lathes, Mills etc. As I plan out my project, I have been thinking about the best material to use for each part. Most 1911s seem to use 4140 for the big stuff (frame, slide, barrel) but what about the trigger components? Could I use a high end knife steel for the sear so that it holds it's edge? Would a titanium trigger perform any better than a steel trigger? I want to build the best 1911 I can while I have access to these machines. Hopefully I can get into an engraving class later on as well.
What metals should I machine my 1911 components from?
- Thread starter Matt Yee
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ArchAngelCD
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Titanium is very difficult to form but it is extremely durable. IMO I would ask your gunsmith instructor which metals to use in your 1911 build. I'm sure he/she will know which metals are best for each part.
Good luck and don't forget to run a picture thread on your progress.
Good luck and don't forget to run a picture thread on your progress.
troy fairweather
Member
a titanium gun will look real cool if u get these cool blue colors in the metal. i think 4140 is chosen more for how easy it it to mill if u got good tooling and time any metal is good. the finish u are using makes a difference to like 4140 blues very nice harder steels can be hard to blue. if u can do titanium if u can just not the barrel lol.
1KPerDay
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Meteorite. Accept no substitutes.
Zaydok Allen
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I was going to suggest tin, just to see how many rounds would work. Maybe not. Meteorite would be much cooler.
However, @Matt Yee i think you should listen to ArchAngelCD on this.
481
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Or how about the most exotic metal found in greater quantities in meteorites that on Earth; Iridium.
Of course, that means that Matt's finished 1911 will weigh in at around 102 ounces (or 6 pounds, 6 ounces) and cost about $130,000
, but the increased mass and cost will make the recoil of the .45ACP and his bank account feel much lighter. 
RetiredUSNChief
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I strongly recommend that if performance is your goal, you'll get far more from good detail to machining than from any specific materials (assuming, of course, you use quality materials).
Especially as a novice starting out.
More "exotic" materials can follow later.
Especially as a novice starting out.
More "exotic" materials can follow later.
Zaydok Allen
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In that case, make it a 10mm. I like where this is going.Or how about the most exotic metal found in greater quantities in meteorites that on Earth; Iridium.
Of course, that means that Matt's finished 1911 will weigh in at around 102 ounces (or 6 pounds, 6 ounces) and cost about $130,000
Owen
Moderator Emeritus
billets of some kind of stainless (410 is fairly common) with tantalum or some other crazy hard material explosively welded onto the surfaces which will become rails.
On the trigger question, nylon and delrin are some of the better trigger shoe materials in my opinion. Much lighter than just about any metal, with more natural lubricity to help them slide. The light weight means you can get away with a weaker trigger return spring, and makes the gun more drop safe at the same time.
On the trigger question, nylon and delrin are some of the better trigger shoe materials in my opinion. Much lighter than just about any metal, with more natural lubricity to help them slide. The light weight means you can get away with a weaker trigger return spring, and makes the gun more drop safe at the same time.
CapnMac
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Alex Steele, over on youtube tried to forge a meteorite, but was foiled by the lack of consistency in the material.
CapnMac
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Well, if exotic material appearance is the goal, then a damascus slide, titanium frame, and deep-blued 4140 working parts would look cool (tho- I scant think of what to make the stocks out of [] )
] )
JONWILL
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Well, if exotic material appearance is the goal, then a damascus slide, titanium frame, and deep-blued 4140 working parts would look cool (tho- I scant think of what to make the stocks out of [
Well, if exotic material appearance is the goal, then a damascus slide, titanium frame, and deep-blued 4140 working parts would look cool (tho- I scant think of what to make the stocks out of [
I was thinking of making the grips from Bastogne Walnut. I'm not necessarily looking for the most exotic looking gun. Just a solid performer and a good looker. That being said, I'm looking to use the best material for each specific part. Would a high end carbon knife steel work for the sear? Something that would hold a sharp edge for a crisp trigger pull?
CapnMac
Member
Actually, that's one of the reasons I suggested damascus steel--the weight of the slide is key to the operation of a 1911 (balanced with the recoil spring). Changing the weight of the slide changes this dynamic in ways both subtle and coarse. (It's a known issue with the smallest sized 1911).
The frame can be made of lighter stuff (the essence of what makes a Commander "work") as long as that material has the structural rigidity to hold all the through-pins in their correct geometry (this is particularly true where the slide stop passes through and hold the barrel lug).
For the working parts, the key is in the accuracy of the machining of the mating surfaces. To that end, as noted above, one usually wants a steel which works well, just so that those surfaces might be accurately crafted. There's a neat little thread where one of our posters has shown off a new macro lens, the better to see how surfaces engage.
Usually the issue with 1911 lock work relate to either bad stoning or substandard materials or machining (burrs left behind, defects in the facing, that sort of thing). The barrel link and the hammer strut are really the only non-visible parts (other than springs) in a 1911. So, those exposed parts want to be of a material that machines well and finishes well. Let that be your guide.
I could rattle on, but I've worn out my 2¢
Zaydok Allen
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With that color combo, bighorn sheep horn stocks would look awesome.Well, if exotic material appearance is the goal, then a damascus slide, titanium frame, and deep-blued 4140 working parts would look cool (tho- I scant think of what to make the stocks out of [
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Monac
Member
A long time ago, J B Wood, a very well known gunsmith and writer, did an article about the various kinds of steels used in different parts of pistols. You do not need to use the same steel for things like the sights as you do for the trigger mechanism, and you use still other kinds for the barrel and so on. Parts made of the wrong steel could fail very quickly, or cost far more to make than they needed too. I will see if I can find it, but it is probably over 40 years old.
Obviously, heat treatment for hardness makes a big difference - I remember that from the article too. Hardness is why the hammers and triggers on revolvers used to be "case hardened". This is a very big subject, but for a simple gun, it should not be too bad.
I understand the desire to make a 1911, but if you take a design made mostly of cheap materials, like a Cobray or a Jimenez (or a Bryco or a Jennings) and make it out of steel (or various grades of steel) it should be possible to make a simple, working gun with margins of safety that significantly exceed the original. That might be a much better initial project, if a less impressive end result.
BTW, there may be some paperwork with the BATF (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms) to deal with. I don't know anything about that, except to point at Google. I also don't know if they've changed their name recently.
PS - I would avoid Lorcins. Their designs did not have as good a reputation as the others I mentioned, IIRC. That may be because they tried to make a 9mm Parabellum blowback out of zinc alloy and botched it. I think it was called the "War Eagle".
Obviously, heat treatment for hardness makes a big difference - I remember that from the article too. Hardness is why the hammers and triggers on revolvers used to be "case hardened". This is a very big subject, but for a simple gun, it should not be too bad.
I understand the desire to make a 1911, but if you take a design made mostly of cheap materials, like a Cobray or a Jimenez (or a Bryco or a Jennings) and make it out of steel (or various grades of steel) it should be possible to make a simple, working gun with margins of safety that significantly exceed the original. That might be a much better initial project, if a less impressive end result.
BTW, there may be some paperwork with the BATF (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms) to deal with. I don't know anything about that, except to point at Google. I also don't know if they've changed their name recently.
PS - I would avoid Lorcins. Their designs did not have as good a reputation as the others I mentioned, IIRC. That may be because they tried to make a 9mm Parabellum blowback out of zinc alloy and botched it. I think it was called the "War Eagle".
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I've read lots of positive comments about a powered metal & glue combo. 
Whenever I say I want a 1911 with tool steel small parts, a powered metal advocate always enlighten me.
Powered metal (MIM) used in airplanes and car motors, good stuff - they say.
Whenever I say I want a 1911 with tool steel small parts, a powered metal advocate always enlighten me.
Powered metal (MIM) used in airplanes and car motors, good stuff - they say.
RugerOldArmy
Member
It is my understanding that the best steel for 1911 Frames and slides is 4340 Nickel Chrome Molly.
I believe Valtros use 4340.
For a finish, I'd go with hard chrome for durability and lubricity.
I believe Valtros use 4340.
For a finish, I'd go with hard chrome for durability and lubricity.
CapnMac
Member
Dang, that would be sharp.
I had beem dithering between bone and "flame" mahogany, particularly in a red-hued finish. Sheephorn trumps either of those.
Jim Watson
Member
Caveat: I am not a machinist or a gunsmith. I am familiar with the work from the consumer side.
I suggest using pre hardened chrome moly for the main parts, especially the slide. Lockwork should be maybe S7, I think that was what Phil Lichtman used in his highly stressed designs. Otherwise, here is what they used in 1942. Most of those materials will work as well as they ever did.
https://forum.m1911.org//temp/1911manufacture.pdf
Save the exotics for your SECOND gun.
Grips are way down the road.
I suggest using pre hardened chrome moly for the main parts, especially the slide. Lockwork should be maybe S7, I think that was what Phil Lichtman used in his highly stressed designs. Otherwise, here is what they used in 1942. Most of those materials will work as well as they ever did.
https://forum.m1911.org//temp/1911manufacture.pdf
Save the exotics for your SECOND gun.
Grips are way down the road.
tark
Member
Forget Titanium. It is extremely heat sensitive and will harden when heated. This will render it useless. It also has the bad habit of adhering to the cutting tool and gumming it up. It is a metal best left to the experts.
I would recommend plain old 4140, in annealed form. Nice and soft, easy to machine and equally easy to harden when finished. It's good enough for Les Baer, my old boss of 21 years. The frames are hardened to RC 28-30 , the slides to RC 40. Not sure if Les starts with prehardened steel or not. Probably does. Les makes his barrels out of 4350. He says it's a better barrel steel than 4140. A lot of the internals are not 4140, not sure what was used, but it looks like Jim has provided a good list of materials.
BTW, welcome to the monkey house!!
I would recommend plain old 4140, in annealed form. Nice and soft, easy to machine and equally easy to harden when finished. It's good enough for Les Baer, my old boss of 21 years. The frames are hardened to RC 28-30 , the slides to RC 40. Not sure if Les starts with prehardened steel or not. Probably does. Les makes his barrels out of 4350. He says it's a better barrel steel than 4140. A lot of the internals are not 4140, not sure what was used, but it looks like Jim has provided a good list of materials.
BTW, welcome to the monkey house!!
tark
Member
Actually, I do remember Les saying that everything was machined after heat treating, to prevent warpage
Jim Watson
Member
That's why I recommended buying prehardened steel. Harder to machine but no warpage to worry about. And no heat treating shop to deal with.
Anecdote Alert:
We had a need for extreme corrosion resistance, hot impure sulfuric acid. Stainless steel? It is to laugh. Carpenter 20 stainless steel plus. Nope.
We ended up with Zirconium. It worked, sort of, with a few little drawbacks.
Expensive, you bet. Zirconium ore is Zircon. A nice crystal of Zircon is a semiprecious jewel.
Not very hard, mild steel range at best. Required regular rebuilding which brings up:
Pyrophoric. Had to be welded in a box flooded with Argon from a spare TIG argon cylinder. We didn't have a modern enclosed machining center to inert, though. Burning metal shavings rolling off a regular lathe are kind of pretty, though.
Moral of story as applied to DIY gunmaking?
Don't get too cute on materials.
Anecdote Alert:
We had a need for extreme corrosion resistance, hot impure sulfuric acid. Stainless steel? It is to laugh. Carpenter 20 stainless steel plus. Nope.
We ended up with Zirconium. It worked, sort of, with a few little drawbacks.
Expensive, you bet. Zirconium ore is Zircon. A nice crystal of Zircon is a semiprecious jewel.
Not very hard, mild steel range at best. Required regular rebuilding which brings up:
Pyrophoric. Had to be welded in a box flooded with Argon from a spare TIG argon cylinder. We didn't have a modern enclosed machining center to inert, though. Burning metal shavings rolling off a regular lathe are kind of pretty, though.
Moral of story as applied to DIY gunmaking?
Don't get too cute on materials.
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Monac
Member
I've read lots of positive comments about a powered metal & glue combo.
Whenever I say I want a 1911 with tool steel small parts, a powered metal advocate always enlighten me.
Powered metal (MIM) used in airplanes and car motors, good stuff - they say.
CDW4ME, I am sorry to nitpick about spelling, but I think you mean powdered metal, not powered. Apologies if you are talking about something that is way over my head.
I have not found the J B Wood article I mentioned. It may have been in a magazine instead of a Gun Digest Annual as I thought.
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Jim Watson
Member
I think it was by Philip Lichtman, not Wood.
He got by with four alloys depending on the job.
He got by with four alloys depending on the job.
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