Need help choosing an over/under

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elktrout

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I have decided to buy an over/under shotgun. Here are the criteria I have established for myself, based on my intended use of the gun:
1. Primarily, it will be a hunting gun for upland game.
2. In order to good with it, I intend to shoot clays with it, likely 200 rounds or more per month.
3. I am not recoil sensitive but do not want to be punished if I shoot 100 rounds in a day of clays.
4. Considering the cost to buy one, I want one that is reliable over the most rounds possible.
5. Appearance is great but functionality is paramount.
6. The best patterns possible across the spectrum of chokes.
7. Easy to clean, including all the guts, in case I hunt in the rain and get it wet.

So, having looked at and handled a number of guns at a local store with a large selection, it appears that my max price would be around $2500. I know there are some super guns above that price, but I must adhere to this as my top line.

So, here are my questions about the various makes:

1. What brand/model would you recommend for me?
2. 30 inch or 28 inch barrels?
3. I have a 12 ga semi for waterfowl, so would a 20 gauge be a good option for me? Is there really any difference between a 12 and a 20 if both shoot one ounce of shot?

Sorry for the long post, but this forum has always been helpful to me in the past. Thanks.
 
For a first clays gun, stick with 12 gauge. My personal preference is Beretta, with a 30" or longer (32") barrel, because they fit me better than a Browning. I prefer longer barrels even in skeet, better weight forward and better follow through of targets. If later you want to get a 20 gauge, nothing wrong with tube inserts from Kolar or Briley that you can get later. They will give you a bit more weight that is nice to absorb some recoil. 20 gauge guns are pretty light unless you can find one strictly made for games. Clay games guns need to have a bit of weight to them, solid feel to tame recoil. Upland bird guns need to be light to carry all day and shoot little. Nothing wrong what-so-ever with a Browning line either.

If at all possible see if you can find a club that has the guns you are interested in and see if you can try them first. Ask if anyone has the guns you are looking at and see if the owner will let you try them, offer an extra box of ammo for thanks. Most will turn you down and would be happy to let a new shooter try their guns.

Don't be afraid to look into used guns, Caesar Guerini, has some nice target guns. Doubt you will find any Kolar or Krieghoffs used in your price range, but an upgraded Beretta or Browning might be available.

Now I reload and use primarily 7/8oz 12 gauge shells with a speed of about 1175fps. They will crush targets on the skeet range with cylinder choke and 25 yard trap targets with a mod or full choke. The slow speed with light load keeps the pellets in a tight group with few flyers. Very light recoil, you can shoot 300+ a day with very little fatigue.
 
12 gauge Browning Citori in the variety that suits you gets my vote. I would get 30" barrels....I would probably look at the CXS for your intended uses.
 
Thanks. Browning shows that their CXS shoots 50/50 patterns. I have seen other guns listing 70/30 patterns. Does this mean that 70% is above the line of sight? My Browning A500 semi shoots high, which I found useful in many situations, so this may be an important point for me to consider.
 
Browning or Beretta will have various models in your budget. If one fits you well, odds are the other will not. Not a problem, just different stock dimensions. Field guns tend to be lighter than target guns. However, IF your goal is for clay targets to be nothing more than practice for hunting (i.e., no competition), then get the gun in the bore size best suited for your hunting. Since you have a gun for waterfowl, what is the intended usage for this gun? Big difference in needs for a wild pheasant hunt versus a Southern Plantation quail preserve....
 
If the primary use is upland game, a 20 gauge with 28” barrels makes perfect sense. I’d look at the Browning Cynergy as the best value. I have a Sporting Model and can’t say enough good things about it.
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I’m the opposite of kudu, Brownings fit me better. Get whichever one fits you best. FABARM O/U’s fit me better than Browning even. I prefer 26” barrels but I strictly hunt and I also don’t have long arms. Barrel length IMO is strictly a preference thing.
 
Be sure you get one that fits or you condemn yourself to serious frustration. Can't beat a Browning. The old Winchester 101s are good too. I have a friend who got a 20 ga 101 in 1967. ( I sent it to him from Hong Kong- 220 dollars). He has shot it continuously since then and never had a lick of trouble. I got a 12 ga and shot it some but sold it a few of years ago. The guy who bought it shoots it a lot. Every time he sees me he tells me how much he likes it and how good it shoots. Be sure you check the weight. You can get one that is too light. I had a Merkle that was under 6 pounds. That thing hurt. There is a big difference between a few shots at upland game and 3 or 4 rounds of sporting clays.
 
My intended hunting use of the gun is dove, quail, and ruffed grouse. Maybe some pheasants here and there. I am originally from Pennsylvania and plan to move back there, hopefully within the next year, to be available for the needs of my elderly parents who live there.

Considering "Kudu's" response about loading 7/8 oz. loads, I will probably stick with the 12 gauge.

What I am somewhat fearful will happen is that I will find myself shooting more clays. Let's face it, they are addictive. In that case, I think I would want 30 inch barrels. Do any of you have "sporting clays" type guns with which you also hunt grouse, etc? Does porting the barrels really reduce the recoil that much?
 
Be sure you get one that fits or you condemn yourself to serious frustration. Can't beat a Browning. The old Winchester 101s are good too. I have a friend who got a 20 ga 101 in 1967. ( I sent it to him from Hong Kong- 220 dollars). He has shot it continuously since then and never had a lick of trouble. I got a 12 ga and shot it some but sold it a few of years ago. The guy who bought it shoots it a lot. Every time he sees me he tells me how much he likes it and how good it shoots. Be sure you check the weight. You can get one that is too light. I had a Merkle that was under 6 pounds. That thing hurt. There is a big difference between a few shots at upland game and 3 or 4 rounds of sporting clays.

Buy a used Browning (Superposed, Citori, etc.) that you like with either the 28 or 30 inch tubes for a grand or so. Go to a professional fitter, and get it fit to you another $4-500. Spend the rest on ammo and range time.

http://www.felandgunsmith.com/gunfitting

Best
 
My intended hunting use of the gun is dove, quail, and ruffed grouse. Maybe some pheasants here and there. I am originally from Pennsylvania and plan to move back there, hopefully within the next year, to be available for the needs of my elderly parents who live there.

Considering "Kudu's" response about loading 7/8 oz. loads, I will probably stick with the 12 gauge.

What I am somewhat fearful will happen is that I will find myself shooting more clays. Let's face it, they are addictive. In that case, I think I would want 30 inch barrels. Do any of you have "sporting clays" type guns with which you also hunt grouse, etc? Does porting the barrels really reduce the recoil that much?
Porting does nothing for recoil, but it does make it louder for everyone around you. As to shooting more clays, do you see yourself entering serious competitions? If yes, then a 12 ga target gun will be in your future as they tend to be way too heavy for toting in the field, but the perfect choice for serious clays. Note the weight differences between field and target models, even in 20 gauge. I have a Browning 20 with 30" barrels and it weighs 7.25# - great for targets but not so great for day afield. Now my favorite upland 20, a SxS, weighs a slim and svelte 6#4oz, great for birds, but can get harsh shooting a lot of clay targets.
 
Thanks. Browning shows that their CXS shoots 50/50 patterns. I have seen other guns listing 70/30 patterns. Does this mean that 70% is above the line of sight? My Browning A500 semi shoots high, which I found useful in many situations, so this may be an important point for me to consider.
Yes 70% above; 70/30 is more for Trap. A 50/50 low rib gun is going to be what you want. As others have said, try a few different ones for fit; Brownings fit me well, but so did the Win. 101 I should never have sold. The Beretta 686 is a fine gun for field or Clays also.

Porting does nothing for recoil, but it does make it louder for everyone around you.

So true!

Caesar Guerini, has some nice target guns.

The barrels go for that much. Maybe I haven't found the right honey hole yet, I've never seen a Guerini for $2500. But I'll agree, finding a used Citori and setting it up should be under that.
 
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As far as what pattern your gun shoots, that is mostly personal preference. I prefer to see my targets clearly and my Beretta 682 Supersport sets up at about 65/35 for skeet and sporting. If that targets bounces down I can see it and not lose it behind the barrels. My M12 trap gun shoots about 90/10 pattern and I float the birds about 6"-8". If you get a downdraft you see it immediately and hopefully adjust for it. All my Remingtons from 870's to 1100's set up about 60/40 for me. Close enough that I do very well with them.

Porting does nothing for recoil, but it does make it louder for everyone around you.
Yep, makes them loud for the folks around you. My Beretta had Pro-Port already installed when I bought the gun. Might help in muzzle rise, but only slightly. I would never waste money on doing it on purpose. Rifle porting (Magna-Port) on the other hand helps greatly, still loud though.

You will want to have a happy medium on the weight of your gun, light enough to tote around, but heavy enough to shoot 100-200 rounds in a day. Make sure the gun has a good recoil pad. I like the Pachmayr Decelerator sporting pads, Limbsavers are very good also.

My intended hunting use of the gun is dove, quail, and ruffed grouse.
Dove a 30" barrel is nice, quail not bad, but grouse is usually hunted in such thick cover that a 20" barrel is sometimes too long.
The barrels go for that much. Maybe I haven't found the right honey hole yet, I've never seen a Guerini for $2500. But I'll agree, finding a used Citori and setting it up should be under that.
I came across a used sporting model that I kick myself for not getting about 2 years ago. 28 gauge with 32" barrels, $2600, alas I was short of funds at the time and my wife would not of looked happily at me if I were to put it on credit.
 
Since we are talking a double duty gun, that will likely be shot more in SC, 30" barrels would be fine. Cleaning is pretty straight forward on most O/U guns and they are very reliable IME.

Browning is the dominant gun at my club but personally, they dont fit me well. Took me a long time to realize that too. Frankly, I prefer Beretta.

I think most of the 'felt' recoil has more to do with fit of the gun but readily admit to using 7/8 oz shot for skeet if not for trap. Same for 5 stand. Our club really likes long shots on the SC course so a heavier load is preferred.

A $2500 budget will land you a fine gun but it's nearly impossible to get a feel for one in a store. The more you shoot the more you'll know what works for you. 1st hand field research and lots of ammo is the best way to proceed.
 
I'm another Beretta O/U fan as they seem to fit me perfectly, much more so than any Browning, Remington, or Winchester ever did. Another line of shotguns very much similar to the Berettas are the Franchi Instinct and the older Renaissance models.
 
Over-under 20's with screw in chokes are perfect shotguns for quail, pheasant, and the like. For things like waterfowl, turkey, and other big game, some type of pump or auto 12 gauge with 3" (or even 3 1/2") chambers is the way to go.
 
With a shotgun, fit is everything. Generally, Berettas fit a slimmer frame better, while Brownings will fit a huskier frame better.

At around $2,000 the Silver Pigeon is the gold standard. Up to $2,500, Rizzini makes an awesome shotgun. Caesar Guerini is an off shoot from Rizzini. Rizzini gives you wood, engraving, fit & finish close to CG, at a Beretta Grade II or III price.
For value with a Browning, it’s really hard to beat the Cynergy. Nice mechanical triggers on it.
 
All good examples above; HOWEVER, until YOU actually shoot them, you will never know. One way to do that is to go to the store and buy a flat of high quality target ammo - that would be Remington STS or Winchester AA and go to your local trap/skeet/5-stand club. If you ask politely, many folks will let you shoot a round of 25 with their gun - especially if you use that good ammo, give then the empties if they reload, and give them a full box as a thanks. If you are of "average build" - which to the gun makers seems to be about 5-10 and 150, you might have multiple brands that will work. I am almost 6-3 and 250, so my choices for out of the box fit don't really happen without some stock customizing. Remember, unlike ARs and similar, you do NOT fit yourself to the gun, the gun must fit to you. I see a lot of folks who are so used to scrunching down on ARs and similar with short stocks that they try to do that with a shotgun and come away frustrated by the misses and the recoil pain (especially cheek slap). Shotgun fit is a lot more than just the Length of Pull. You should be able to close your eyes and mount the gun and open your eyes to a perfect sight picture. Things such as drop at heel, drop at comb, cast on or off, pitch, toe in or out, high rib versus flat rib, thickness of the comb, type of grip (straight (aka English), semi-pistol (aka Prince of Wales), or highly curved target grip, and eye dominance are all factors affecting fit. Example: with a straight English grip, my SxS can easily have a LOP of almost 15", with the semi grip, about 14-7/8, with a tightly curved target grip, more like 14-3/4.
 
Indeed, a very good way to fit out what you like and what shoots well for you. I've been able to shoot BT-99's, MX-8's, 686's, Superposeds, K3200's, even a Ljutic Mono-gun by asking, and thanking with a box of shells, a round paid for, sometimes a cold beverage after their round.

I came across a used sporting model that I kick myself for not getting about 2 years ago. 28 gauge with 32" barrels, $2600, alas I was short of funds at the time and my wife would not of looked happily at me if I were to put it on credit.

I feel your pain, that's a hard one to pass up.
 
Buy a used Browning (Superposed, Citori, etc.) that you like with either the 28 or 30 inch tubes for a grand or so. Go to a professional fitter, and get it fit to you another $4-500. Spend the rest on ammo and range time.
..... That gets my vote also. I've wanted a Citori for years and picked up a nice clean, used 12 ga. with 32" barrels a year ago this month and I suddenly became better at sporting clays. And I haven't even been fitted for it yet but there's a professional stockmaker in this area that specializes in shotguns. Mine has an adjustable comb but I'd like to ensure the rest of it is about right for me. Nice thing about a Citori is that I'll probably never wear it out in my lifetime.
 
..... That gets my vote also. I've wanted a Citori for years and picked up a nice clean, used 12 ga. with 32" barrels a year ago this month and I suddenly became better at sporting clays. And I haven't even been fitted for it yet but there's a professional stockmaker in this area that specializes in shotguns. Mine has an adjustable comb but I'd like to ensure the rest of it is about right for me. Nice thing about a Citori is that I'll probably never wear it out in my lifetime.
And if it does, repairs are easy for any smith and parts are readily available. I have a Gti, new from 1994, and it has a few hundred thousand rounds through it. It needed new springs and firing pins at 90,000. Now about 300K, it looks like it might need it again. $100 each time, twice in 25 years is cheap maintenance.
 
That's one of the reasons that I've wanted a Citori for many years..... Heard so many stories about their durability and how it's no problem to get it fixed if it needs it. As told by guys who put enormous amounts of rounds through them annually. Based on how much sporting clays I do that gun will never wear out.
 
Beretta's 68X series is the same in quality and repairs. It is often said, however, that if one fits you very well, odds are the other will not. Just different stock deisgns, so try them both and go with the one that fits you the best (or is the least costly to modify)
 
Beretta's 68X series is the same in quality and repairs. It is often said, however, that if one fits you very well, odds are the other will not. Just different stock deisgns, so try them both and go with the one that fits you the best (or is the least costly to modify)

This. I believe the quality is the same between a Citori and Beretta 68X series but the fit is quite a bit different.
 
As I stated in my original post, this forum has always been helpful in getting answers to my questions. All of you have been great in replying with sensible responses. I will be comparing the Citori models and Beretta 686s.

One question about Berettas: Do the cylindrical bolts create demonstrable wear in the face of the mono bloc at the holes they engage? I recall that being a problem with them many years ago, but maybe they were using a cheaper grade of steel then.
 
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