38 super ins and outs

My experience with the 38 Super is all positive. Benefits are reliability, accuracy and power. Accuracy is among the best of any centerfire cartridge; gunsmiths build bullseye pistols in 38 Super that put 10 shots in under 1" at 50 yards.

It is a handloaders dream. You can equal the power of the 9X23 Winchester and the 357 Magnum from a 4" barrel (with 125 grain bullets) and remain within standard pressure limits of the cartridge. http://www.shootingtimes.com/reloading/super-powders-for-the-38-super/

Historically, accuracy from the 38 Super wasn't so great. The cartridge originally was designed to headspace on the rim which, in the 38 Super's case did not help accuracy.

It has some popularity in countries that forbid civilians from owning handguns chambered in military cartridges.

Sometime in the 1980's, aftermarket barrel makers began to make barrels that headspaced on the case mouth. The 38 Super provided some benefits in some of the handgun games if the accuracy was improved which the change in headspacing did.

Now a days, I think every new manufactured 38 Super gun and barrel headspaces on the mouth. But, old guns that headspace on the rim are still out there.

38 Super is a great cartridge but has decades of bad press to overcome.

beeenbag

I got turned on to the .38 Super by a couple of buddies of mine who use to handload for it many years ago. Back then most factory loads were a bit on the light side due to concerns that they might be used in older .38 Auto pistols. So handloading for it was one way to get thing cooking with the .38 Super and to take advantage of that case capacity.

As cfullgraf noted earlier versions of Colt .38 Supers headspaced on the rim, making it literally a "hit or miss" proposition in terms of accuracy with the rim thickness of the case being used. Later barrel makers, like Bar-Sto, started to make barrels that headspaced on the case mouth and accuracy improved greatly across the board.

Another benefit to having a 1911 in .38 Super is that with the addition of a 9mm. barrel assembly and 9mm. magazines, you can easily swap out barrels and use less expensive 9mm. ammo in the gun. I have had Colt .38 Supers in both Government and Commander Models and for some unexplained reason I always liked the Commander size gun better than the full size Government Model.

38 Super was introduced in the Colt Model 1911 in about 1928 or 1929. For many years, the 1911 was the only gun you could get it in. So its early history was darkened by the Great Depression, and in those days (long before hollow points) people thought that 45 ACP was a better defensive cartridge. Also, 38 Super either had a reputation for poor accuracy, or lacked a reputation for good accuracy, I don't know which. In the mid-1930's, .357 Magnum took over as the hottest pistol cartridge around. After 1945, 9mm Luger was available in a vast array of guns, and kind of sucked all the air out of the room as far as 9mm locked-breech autos went. 38 Super had a significant edge in power, but once again, before hollow points, it didn't seem to make much difference.

I think what 38 Super needed, early on, was a gun of its own, something handier than a 1911, or something with a 10-shot magazine - something to give it a niche of its own. It never got it (thanks to the Great Depression), and the role it once served - the hottest 9mm automatic cartridge around - is due to be filled by the 9x23 Winchester, IMO. Personally I am surprised THAT round is not more popular in full-size automatics. It would make more sense (to me, anyway) than chambering them in 9mm Luger, which has become a pocket-pistol cartridge, the modern day version of 32 or 380 ACP.

Monac said:

38 Super was introduced in the Colt Model 1911 in about 1928 or 1929.

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There is some disagreement when the high performance 38 Super ammunition was actually introduced.

38 ACP was introduced around 1900 in the Colt 1900.

38 ACP and 38 Super share the same case dimensionally. (FYI, do not fire 38 Super ammunition in guns rated for 38 ACP ammunition).

If you have not already read Lucky Gunner's article on the 38 Super, check it out here...

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/nice-38-super-article-from-lucky-gunner.839780/

When the M1911 Colt "Super 38" was introduced in the late 1920's, Lucky Gunner says there is some information that the ammunition available was still the 38 ACP loading. It was not until a few years later that the high performance version, aka 38 Super, ammunition became available.

Lucky Gunner's article is a good read.

I picked up a 38 Super 1911 a few years ago before they worked out the bugs on 1911 9mm magazines so they would feed reliably. In a full sized 1911, the 38 Super has little recoil. When I take people to the range, it is always the centerfire pistol favorite.

Nuclear said:

I picked up a 38 Super 1911 a few years ago before they worked out the bugs on 1911 9mm magazines so they would feed reliably. In a full sized 1911, the 38 Super has little recoil. When I take people to the range, it is always the centerfire pistol favorite.

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Just to expand on this a little, the 38 Super produces more muzzle energy than a 45 Auto, but has about 18-26% less recoil than the 45 Auto.

Here's an article comparing the recoil of 45 Auto, 40 S&W, 38 Super and 9mm in 1911 pistols: http://www.handgunsmag.com/competition/recoil-comparison-pistol-competition-cartridges/

Over a fifty-five year span I have owned three and shot a dozen more. I wish I had any of the three I owned back, especially the first, a, believe it or not Llama with S&W rear sight. The cartridge is easy to load, accurate if headspace on the case mouth, and not too far behind the milder .357s. I shot the RCBS 38-155KT in mine, sized to .356 with Unique. In my Llama, it was the old 357446 hollow point.
A friend has a CZ or Tangfolio, don't remember which, and it is a hoot.
Speed, power accuracy, low recoil...what's not to like?
Finding brass and mags, I guess.

I have been wishing for Springfield XDs in Super 38 since the XDs was released.

460Shooter said:

I have been wishing for Springfield XDs in Super 38 since the XDs was released.

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They are supposed to come out with a 10mm XD sometime soon.

I bought my first 38 Super in the early 1980s. A Colt 1911 built in the 1950s modified to shoot 38 AMU including adjustable target sights. Unfortunately, the 38 AMU stuff had been "Bubba'd" so I installed a 38 Super Colt Mk IV Series 70 "headspace on the rim" barrel in the gun.

I found the barrel would accept 158 grain .357 SWC cast bullets and the gun was accurate. Great fun to shoot.

I replaced the barrel again a number of years ago with a "headspace on the case mouth" barrel and the new barrel would not accept the cast SWC bullets but shoots conventional 38 Super ammunition better.

I ought to put the Mk IV Series 70 barrel back in the gun and load up some 158 grain SWC's again. I have other 38 Supers now to shoot standard 38 Super ammunition.

In addition to what others have said, it remains a fairly popular round in USPSA competition in open-division guns - the space blasters with large compensators on the front. It has enough boiler room to "make major" (a momentum calculation) with 115 or 125 grain bullets at slightly lower pressures than 9mm Major (which is overtaking it, but more prone to blowing up guns and/or dramatic case failures). It also generates more gas - which would mean more recoil in a non-compensated gun, but that's just more gas to work the compensator in an open gun.

There's a nice lady in her late 50's who usually shoots at the USPSA match I direct. She has a very nice open gun in 38 super. Ballistically, she is shooting the equivalent of .357 magnum rounds out of it... and the gun stays very flat, thanks to a well engineered comp and all the gas her 38 super cartridges feed it. It's kinda cool to watch, especially for folks who are new to the game and have never seen a real "race gun" in action.

We like the 38 Super. Ours is accurate, seems to hit hard, and really fun to shoot. The comp system works better with some velocity.

Pro: OAL correct for 1911 action, reliable operation.
Con: Not many other actions long enough.

Pro: Capable of being loaded over wide range.
Con: If there was ever a major brand factory load that really got a 130 to 1300, I never saw or heard reliably. Handloading required.

Big con: Price. 9mm has government backing and is available in wider variety and lower price.

Everybody feels compelled to mention the improvement from semi-rim headspace control to case mouth headspacing. Come on, guys, even Colt made the change 30 years ago. It's like the "don't put rifle only high velocity .44-40 in your sixgun" warning. Hasn't been any of that made for even longer.

That's because the semi-rim headspacing is really hit or miss for accuracy, and there are still a lot of those floating around. They made them for 70+years before changing over.

I do wish I could get a threaded 1911 barrel and heavy subsonic rounds in 38 Super.

I’ve had four over the years. Smooth shooters. Still have two bright and shiny 1911 .38 Supers.

Jim Watson said:

Everybody feels compelled to mention the improvement from semi-rim headspace control to case mouth headspacing. Come on, guys, even Colt made the change 30 years ago. It's like the "don't put rifle only high velocity .44-40 in your sixgun" warning. Hasn't been any of that made for even longer.

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Remember, it takes at least 10 "attaboys" to off set just one "oh sh**".

I agree but outside the competition world, in my opinion, the 38 Super is still trying to overcome it's reputation for poor accuracy.

So, ammunition/guns with a poor reputation leads to few guns produced in the cartridge which leads to even less ammunition available which leads to even fewer guns available and so forth and so forth.

I'm a fan of 38 Super, I currently own four, all M1911s, and I'm a reloader so as long as components are available, I'm happy.

Until more variety of ammunition becomes available and more different gun platforms become available for the 38 Super, in my opinion, 38 Super will just struggle along at current levels.

The two I now have...both with ramped barrels.

beeenbag said:

It seems there are more offerings in 357 sig which resembles it ballistically but losing capacity in the same size firearm.

The length of the cartridge is about the only reason I can think it wouldn’t be offered in more modern platforms.

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That's your answer. .38 Super requires a .45 size frame.

It's a good round, but it won't do anything 9x19mm won't from a practical standpoint. Likewise, .357 Sig never gained much of a following and has all but disappeared as an option in current production handguns. On top of that, more and more of us shooting suppressed means that auto pistol rounds which propel the heaviest bullets to supersonic velocities are of little interest. When 9x19 already has to be moderately loaded to stay subsonic with 147s, why would I bother with .38 Super, 9x21, 9x23 or .357 Sig?

C&L

Love those two nickel plated .38 Supers of yours! A friend of mine had a nickel plated RIA 1911, though it was in .45 ACP, and I was very impressed by how well and how evenly the plating was applied everywhere on the gun. I especially like the metal grips on the second pistol.

The first handgun I bought for carry was an Astra A80 in 38 super. Nice gun not costing an arm and a leg and worked great ,I hand loaded for it and had major power. Long before Tn. became shall issue I got a carry permit from the county sheriff dept. and they had a list of approved hand guns and my A80 wasn't on it so I sold it and got a browning BDA.380. A nicer gun but not near the power . Fortunately I never had to fire any carry gun in dire need.

It can be useful to go here and poke around some...

https://web.archive.org/web/20170624164255/http://38super.net/


https://web.archive.org/web/20170716064320/http://www.38super.net:80/Pages/History.html

Cocked & Locked said:

The two I now have...both with ramped barrels.

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Wow--who did your refinish job/customizing job? Excellent work.

I suspect that due to 1911 competitions if nothing else, the .38 Super will probably survive while the 9x21 and 9x23 are moribund. Brass and bullets are widely available for the Super and reloading for it is pretty much a snap. The ill-fated .357 Sig along with the .45 GAP are also faltering with their primary niche of self defense being overtaken as you said by other cartridges.

If you want an 1911 style, not sure how reliable a 1911 in 9mm is with 147 gr bullets as well. The .38 Super has a much longer track record of success. Don't have either but at least a few years ago, the complaint about 1911's in 9mm aka 9x19 was that it was pickier on ammo that it liked. That put me right off of these. Newer ones may not have that problem.