Shooting Illustrated 5 Critical Mistakes Article.

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I will also say that I objectively starting doing much better in training after I decided to stick with one manual of arms.
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I recently read an article about the author's test of two different pistol sighting systems. He was able to acclimate to one after about 300 rounds of practice with full proficiency coming at around 500 rounds. The other sighting system took him over 2000 rounds to get used to.

That's obviously not a perfect parallel to the issue of switching guns, but it does highlight the fact that changing things can result in proficiency loss that can only be re-attained with significant amounts of practice/training.

I'm quite sure there are people who can switch back and forth between significantly different guns with no appreciable loss of proficiency. I'm even more sure that capability is not nearly as common as people believe it is.
 
JohnKSa said:
I recently read an article about the author's test of two different pistol sighting systems. He was able to acclimate to one after about 300 rounds of practice with full proficiency coming at around 500 rounds. The other sighting system took him over 2000 rounds to get used to.

That's obviously not a perfect parallel to the issue of switching guns, but it does highlight the fact that changing things can result in proficiency loss that can only be re-attained with significant amounts of practice/training.

I'm quite sure there are people who can switch back and forth between significantly different guns with no appreciable loss of proficiency. I'm even more sure that capability is not nearly as common as people believe it is.
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I carried an M&P (3 dots) exclusively for 3 years at work and home. About 18 months ago I switched to Glocks with their sights and I notice the difference. In fact I have a problem with the M&P sights
 
Trunk Monkey said:
I thought that with all my accumulated knowledge from THR and You Tube I'd be pretty close to the head of the class. Suffice it to say I wasn't. During training I've had to address issues that I never even thought of on my own.
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This is a major problem in the "gun culture" in the US. The vast majority of firearms owners have had zero good training and have no idea that they really have no idea. They think they can get what they need from online videos, online forums like this one, or a CCW class. One of the things we stress over and over to our CHL students is that the legally required class is only a beginning. A responsible person will go far beyond that first class. Sadly, most do not.
 
I think it really depends on how acclimated you are to stress
As a racetrack vetenarian I’m used to using multiple different instruments on expensive thrashing 1,000lb animals requiring way more fine motor skills then a handgun
My Asst dosent have a problem eithier. With practice I think a lot more ppl can do it if they are used to stressful situations
 
qwert65 said:
My Asst dosent have a problem eithier. With practice I think a lot more ppl can do it if they are used to stressful situations
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There is the rub. Besides doing enough correct repetitions to develop unconscious competence, there has to be some type of stress inoculation training. While force on force training is good, it is not stress innoculation training. There is no danger in any of the tactical simulators we use. Everyone knows the worst thing that will happen might be a welt from a simunitions round.

There needs to be some element in the training that introduces real danger in a controlled manner so that you can learn how you perform with a real Adrenalin dump. The military uses things like the confidence course and rappelling to put student in some real danger and get their Adrenalin flowing.

A balanced training program needs to cover the fundamentals of weapons handling and marksmanship, force on force simulations and some type of stress inoculation training.
 
Jeff White said:
A balanced training program needs to cover the fundamentals of weapons handling and marksmanship, force on force simulations and some type of stress inoculation training.
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While I agree, for those not actively working in the military or a law enforcement job, this type of training (with firearms) can be extremely expensive and is not readily available throughout every region in this country.
 
As a racetrack vetenarian I’m used to using multiple different instruments on expensive thrashing 1,000lb animals requiring way more fine motor skills then a handgun.
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How much professional training have you had? How many hours did you train to acquire those skills and how often do you practice them in an average month? About how many people are there in the U.S. at this time with the skill level required to do your job?

I went to school for 6 years to learn my trade. Of course, I picked the field of study in the first place because I had a certain level of natural talent for it. I practice it daily and have for many years. It would be ridiculous for me to imply that someone with a no training (or only a few hours of training), and who practices a few times a year could duplicate the kind of facility I have acquired from years of professional training and decades of work in one particular field.
 
Old Dog said:
While I agree, for those not actively working in the military or a law enforcement job, this type of training (with firearms) can be extremely expensive and is not readily available throughout every region in this country.
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Travis Haley talked about this in his carbine class that I attended. Stress inoculation doesn't have to involve shooting. That's why Jeff mentioned things that the military uses like the confidence course and rappelling. If that kind of stress is not provided at your job, it can be obtained through "extreme" sports. Obviously, people need to be in shape to do most of those things, which of course is another subject too often ignored by the "gun" culture.
 
qwert65 said:
I think it really depends on how acclimated you are to stress
As a racetrack vetenarian I’m used to using multiple different instruments on expensive thrashing 1,000lb animals requiring way more fine motor skills then a handgun
My Asst dosent have a problem eithier. With practice I think a lot more ppl can do it if they are used to stressful situations
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Have you or your assistant ever been shot at or had found an open door where there wasn't supposed to be an open door in the middle of the night or had to clear a building when you know there's someone in there?
 
Man, that rule #2 Mistake No. 2: Rotating Your Daily Concealed-Carry Gun maybe right for some guy that gets to the range once a month, but sure is not a mistake for myself. I have a number of guns I carry in Rotation and know them like the back of my hand. Know all the shooting characteristic, sight placement, ammo choice, and on and on. Yes, I become one with the gun. I shoot all of them often and can shoot them all blind folded as a matter of speech.

It should read, as NOT SHOOTING YOUR EVERY DAY CARRY OFTEN AND TRAINING WITH THEM DILIGENTLY.

** TO INCLUDE YOUR SHOTGUN THAT YOU MAY USE FOR HOME PROTECTION.
 
Jeb Stuart said:
Man, that rule #2 Mistake No. 2: Rotating Your Daily Concealed-Carry Gun maybe right for some guy that gets to the range once a month, but sure is not a mistake for myself. I have a number of guns I carry in Rotation and know them like the back of my hand. Know all the shooting characteristic, sight placement, ammo choice, and on and on. Yes, I become one with the gun. I shoot all of them often and can shoot them all blind folded as a matter of speech.
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Ever had to do it on a two way range?
 
JohnKSa said:
I went to school for 6 years to learn my trade. Of course, I picked the field of study in the first place because I had a certain level of natural talent for it. I practice it daily and have for many years. It would be ridiculous for me to imply that someone with a no training (or only a few hours of training), and who practices a few times a year could duplicate the kind of facility I have acquired from years of professional training and decades of work in one particular field.
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This is a daily problem in the practice of Architecture (and contracting, for that matter).
Something I have only 40 years' experience with.
Why people expect anything else to be a 30 minute online course still baffles me.

Perhaps the problem is cars.
Cars are ridiculously easy to drive.
And are quick to learn, to a vaguely just barely passing D grade level of competence.
Enough so that many, many, far too many, don't bother to even try to learn more than that level, and engage in all sorts of foolishness while being, allegedly, in control of more than 3000# o dangerous vehicle.
So, how complicated could a 1# gun be?

"We" here obviously know the amount wrong with that last sentence. The larger question might be do we know "how much" is wrong?
 
CapnMac said:
"We" here obviously know the amount wrong with that last sentence. The larger question might be do we know "how much" is wrong?
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I'm not convinced that "we" do know. Based on what I see and hear at gun shows, gun shops, from students in our CHL classes and just from the gun owning public at large, I think American gun owners in general are woefully deficient when it comes to training and competency with their weapons. Most would be better off, from a self defense perspective, selling most of their guns and buying a gym membership (and using it) and paying for some good training classes.
 
bearcreek said:
I'm not convinced that "we" do know. Based on what I see and hear at gun shows, gun shops, from students in our CHL classes and just from the gun owning public at large, I think American gun owners in general are woefully deficient when it comes to training and competency with their weapons. Most would be better off, from a self defense perspective, selling most of their guns and buying a gym membership (and using it) and paying for some good training classes.
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And yet, there are many reports per year of people with little to zero experience with firearms successfully defending themselves with their sock drawer special.
 
JohnKSa said:
How much professional training have you had? How many hours did you train to acquire those skills and how often do you practice them in an average month? About how many people are there in the U.S. at this time with the skill level required to do your job?

I went to school for 6 years to learn my trade. Of course, I picked the field of study in the first place because I had a certain level of natural talent for it. I practice it daily and have for many years. It would be ridiculous for me to imply that someone with a no training (or only a few hours of training), and who practices a few times a year could duplicate the kind of facility I have acquired from years of professional training and decades of work in one particular field.
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DVM training is extremely rigorous but is pretty safe- absolutely nothing like the real thing on the large animal side( horses, cows, pigs) these are academic institutions with top quality care compared to in the field it’s almost 180 degree different in some places.
I think you miss my point ; the contention was that carrying a different manual of arms is a bad idea, my point is when ppl get experience dealing in a stressful you have to move now situation- where there are two aspects to look after- ppl safety and Patient safety in this case- once the ppl are used to the STRESS of the situation I can take a minimally trained 15$/hr person and they can handle a wide range of different instruments in different ways- While training is important no disputing that- I honestly believe experience in dealing with situations that are dangerous and unpredictable is way more important- I mean most Asst can get up to speed in about 60 days
 
Trunk Monkey said:
Have you or your assistant ever been shot at or had found an open door where there wasn't supposed to be an open door in the middle of the night or had to clear a building when you know there's someone in there?
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Have you stood in an 8x 10 stall with a 1000-1200lb horse in so much pain it’s throwing itself into everything?
Danger is danger the stress response is the same- and repetitions of stress that you have to function in over and over teaches you how to be quick but correct with multiple items in a hurry.
A firefighter hasn’t had your scenario eithier nor a airplane pilot- but both do much more complicated things then manipulate a firearm under lots of stress
 
And yet, there are many reports per year of people with little to zero experience with firearms successfully defending themselves with their sock drawer special.
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True. Also, literally thousands of incompetent drivers make it to work each day without killing themselves or someone else. People who can't maintain a constant speed, who have trouble staying in their own lane and paying attention to what's going on around them. Success is not evidence of competence.

There's a surveillance video available online that shows two women successfully repulse an armed attack on the convenience store where they were working. It highlights the idea that one can achieve success without knowing what they are doing. They did many things wrong, several of which could have easily gotten one or both of them very dead but they managed to prevail, primarily due to luck and a robber who was even more incompetent than they were.

It's unwise to depend on luck and to hope for an incompetent attacker. A better solution is to take steps that maximize the chances of success in real-world attack scenarios.
While training is important no disputing that- I honestly believe experience in dealing with situations that are dangerous and unpredictable is way more important...
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How would gun owners acquire this type of experience, and how long would it take them to acquire it? And how would the process of acquiring that "experience" not be accurately characterized as "training"?
...I mean most Asst can get up to speed in about 60 days
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In your opinion, how many firearms owners have 60 days of one-on-one OJT type training with a professional?
 
I believe we are talking past one another.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but isnt the articles point that you shouldn’t care a different manual of arms, so you won’t mis-operate your firearm in the unfortunate chance you have to use it?


My opinion is that when talking about performing in a life or death situation, the more experience one has dealing with STRESS in a situation where they might be hurt/killed, the better chance they have of performing adequately- then one who trains all the time but lives a very safe life.


For example ;
Deals with danger plus training > deals with danger and has familiarity with sidearm > Trains a lot but not used to danger > familiarity with sidearm not used to danger

It’s a spectrum and I’m not talking about someone who never shoots/practices- my point is that claims that you will “forget” the manual of arms/sight picture is mitigated if you are used to performing tasks under duress.
I’m not saying that it’s an advantage to have different manual of arms just that in a lot of cases I don’t think it’s as big a detriment as the majority thinks it is.
My other point is that the stress involved, while ideally ( but clearly not practical) would be actual gun fighting. However, there are many hobbies/professions that can prepare one for dealing with the STRESS of an encounter and I value that more then someone who takes a lot of classes but hasn’t “ been there” from a danger stand point.
I’ll give a true life example; bear with the details please do you get the whole story;

I’ve had to point a gun at one person, I hope never to do it again- now it was my wife’s pistol - background we both carry- her a Walter 9mm, me at the time an XDs 45 - further by our bed we keep a 1911 that we both shoot.

I was working on the road, we were living in a camper set up in the usual way of bedroom in the back living room up front- we had a fancy camper with sliding glass door in living tomm, my one year old slept there in his crib.
This was a sketchy area as we found out had a recommendation to live there for the couple months I would be there but it was a bad recommendation. I was a sole practitioner then working out of a minivan my wife had a car, so we paid someone to tow our camper from place to place but it wasn’t simple to go to a different campground once we found out how sketchy the place was, Anyway we were living there I instructed my wife not to tell anyone what I did for a living so they didn’t think we had money- but over a couple of weeks, someone had a sick puppy, my wife let it slip etc. word got around- but we had two weeks left before moving and my wife swore I was paranoid.

One night around 4am we awake to my dog snarling and throwing himself against our sliding door, my one year old screaming, and a man banging on our door yelling let me in.
I jump up grab the closest pistol ( wife’s ccw) and while moving into living room I remember checking which gun it was, glancing at my son seeing he was scared but unarmed and positioned myself btw door and crib and pointed the gun at the man banging- there were no extra steps, no hesitation.
I asked him *** he wanted he said money I said no( through the door)
He kept pulling on the handle- dog kept jumping- told my wife to call dog to get him out of the way opened sliding door a crack ( from the side so he couldn’t grab me) and told him he had 2 seconds before I killed him- I said this while I stepped backward to get him in my sights and keep distance- this all took way less then it does to even say it- my point is this;
I picked up a gun, checked it, looked at my son, had wife call the dog and argued with the man in about ten seconds/ you know what was going through my mind?

I’ve never typed this before and I’m ashamed to now but it’s the truth and it illustrates my point - this was my thinking- When i shoot him I wonder who will hear the shot? I wonder if I could just dump him in a ditch and avoid the police bc they will investigate and I have to be at work at 6 there is no one to cover for me and I’m going to lose a lot of money over this POS. That was it- luckily he ran away called me a mother ****er and that was that.
And this is my point- as a veterinarian I am used to waking up at all hours and instantly getting information ( over the phone) about the emergency I get dressed and jump in my car and go all the while remembering what I was told. I firmly believe that that training( my life) helped me more in this situation then any course since they couldn’t simulate waking you up and instantly functioning with enough repetition to matter. I casually shoot my wife’s guns but not often just to be familiar yet I had no problem operating it. ( though to be fair I didn’t shoot but he was like 18 inches away not exactly a hard shot).
Training is important but learning how to function under stress is more important in my opinion
Sorry for the long post
 
qwert65 said:
Have you stood in an 8x 10 stall with a 1000-1200lb horse in so much pain it’s throwing itself into everything?
Danger is danger the stress response is the same- and repetitions of stress that you have to function in over and over teaches you how to be quick but correct with multiple items in a hurry.
A firefighter hasn’t had your scenario eithier nor a airplane pilot- but both do much more complicated things then manipulate a firearm under lots of stress
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There is a difference. I'm going to assume that most of the time you had an idea of what you were getting into. I would be willing to bet that the instances of you being in a stall sticking a thermometer up a horses butt and he goes crazy out of the blue are pretty rare.

In the robbery scenario that you described your assailant was locked outside the house and in fact never presented a real threat to you. Imagine if you woke up and he was standing at the foot of your bed. Would you have still had time to grab a gun, assess which one it was and check it under those circumstances?

My job has presented me with numerous occasions to be caught completely by surprise and have to defend myself.

One night I was putting my things in my car getting ready to go to work and somebody at the other end of the parking lot started shooting. The first indication that I had but things were about to go pear-shaped when I heard the first shot.

I had a guy walk up to me at work one night and asked me for directions to a certain bar and and when I stepped up to answer him he assaulted me out of nowhere.

Another night I was on my way to work. Again putting my things in my car when two guys walked around the corner of the building and tried to rob me. When they walked around the corner of the building they were at best 15 feet away from me and that was the first indication I had that they were even there.

Now I'm not saying that I wouldn't have remembered which gun of my "rotation" I was carrying when those incidents occurred but I wouldn't have wanted to have been required to either.

Incidents like that are the reason I don't rotate carry guns. They're also the reason that I carry things on my person in pretty much the same place every time they're also the reason that I keep what I carry at work and what I carry when I'm not at work as close to identical as I can. I've seen how fast incidents like this can unfold and I'm absolutely convinced that if you make one mistake it's going to be all over before you have time to correct it.
 
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.455_Hunter said:
And yet, there are many reports per year of people with little to zero experience with firearms successfully defending themselves with their sock drawer special.
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I'm not sure how that's relevant. Incompetent people survive all kinds of things through dumb luck on a regular basis. That doesn't mean relying on dumb luck is a good plan if better preparation is an option.
 
Trunk Monkey said:
There is a difference. I'm going to assume that most of the time you had an idea of what you were getting into. I would be willing to bet that the instances of you being in a stall sticking a thermometer up a horses butt and he goes crazy out of the blue are pretty rare.

In the robbery scenario that you described your assailant was locked outside the house and in fact never presented a real threat to you. Imagine if you woke up and he was standing at the foot of your bed. Would you have still had time to grab a gun, assess which one it was and check it under those circumstances?

My job has presented me with numerous occasions to be caught completely by surprise and have to defend myself.

One night I was putting my things in my car getting ready to go to work and somebody at the other end of the parking lot started shooting. The first indication that I had but things were about to go pear-shaped when I heard the first shot.

I had a guy walk up to me at work one night and asked me for directions to a certain bar and and when I stepped up to answer him he assaulted me out of nowhere.

Another night I was on my way to work. Again putting my things in my car when two guys walked around the corner of the building and tried to rob me. When they walked around the corner of the building they were at best 15 feet away from me and that was the first indication I had that they were even there.

Now I'm not saying that I wouldn't have remembered which gun of my "rotation" I was carrying when those incidents occurred but I wouldn't have wanted to have been required to either.

Incidents like that are the reason I don't rotate carry guns. They're also the reason that I carry things on my person in pretty much the same place every time they're also the reason that I keep what I carry at work and what I carry when I'm not at work as close to identical as I can. I've seen how fast incidents like this can unfold and I'm absolutely convinced that if you make one mistake it's going to be all over before you have time to correct it.
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Trunk monkey,
You aren’t really refuting what I’m saying
I’m not arguing that DVM training makes you Rambo- I’m simply pointing out that having a job where you need to do highly manipulative things in a dangerous situation can help you handle a completely different other dangerous situation.
Do pilots know something will go wrong or does it happen all of a sudden?
Do security guards?
Once again I’m not stating that because they are pilots or security guards, or vets that they will react better - only if they’ve had somewhat routine danger.

You are right and wrong about knowing what I get into TB racehorses are extremely fit, adolescents who are trained to react explosively- if I respond to a colic or a broken leg then yes I know what I’m getting into- but horses are not the brightest esp young horses - they will freak and shy at almost nothing( plastic bag, watch etc) and go from 0-100 without warning- not most of them but enough, maybe 1% prob less- but if you treat 200 horses a day you run into them frequently.
I’m also not saying my life was in danger that’s why I am ashamed I Wanted to kill him, (maybe paternal instinct I’m not sure) - though I will point out that little hook on a camper door is not in the same world as an actual house door I actually thought he was going to break the glass.
As far as if they were at the foot of my bed?
I don’t know that’s a scary deal what would you do?
 
qwert65 said:
Trunk monkey,
You aren’t really refuting what I’m saying
I’m not arguing that DVM training makes you Rambo- I’m simply pointing out that having a job where you need to do highly manipulative things in a dangerous situation can help you handle a completely different other dangerous situation.
Do pilots know something will go wrong or does it happen all of a sudden?
Do security guards?
Once again I’m not stating that because they are pilots or security guards, or vets that they will react better - only if they’ve had somewhat routine danger.

You are right and wrong about knowing what I get into TB racehorses are extremely fit, adolescents who are trained to react explosively- if I respond to a colic or a broken leg then yes I know what I’m getting into- but horses are not the brightest esp young horses - they will freak and shy at almost nothing( plastic bag, watch etc) and go from 0-100 without warning- not most of them but enough, maybe 1% prob less- but if you treat 200 horses a day you run into them frequently.
I’m also not saying my life was in danger that’s why I am ashamed I Wanted to kill him, (maybe paternal instinct I’m not sure) - though I will point out that little hook on a camper door is not in the same world as an actual house door I actually thought he was going to break the glass.
As far as if they were at the foot of my bed?
I don’t know that’s a scary deal what would you do?
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I think you're missing my point. Think about it like this let's suppose you had a certain Veterinary instrument, let's say you had two of them on one of them you have to turn the dial clockwise to make it work on the other you have to turn the dial counterclockwise and you have to do it without looking. Could you switch them both out randomly or would you always carry the one that you have to turn clockwise?

Let me use a much more specific example.
I would never rotate between a double action revolver and a single action only revolver. I would never rotate between a 1911 and a Glock and I would certainly never rotate between a 1911(flip the safety DOWN to fire) and a third generation Smith & Wesson (flip the safety UP to fire).

I can tell you from personal experience that once things start going wrong panic sets in and it's almost impossible to overcome it and get back on track. It's very unlikely that you'll have an epiphany and realize you flipped the safety the wrong way or forgot to cock the hammer what's most likely is you'll go down squeezing trigger and wondering why in the HELL your gun is not firing
 
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To some extent, I think people are talking past each other on training and generating more heat than light. A potential assault is a multi variable issue as far as determining the outcome. If training is looked at as a variable that improves the likelihood of a good outcome, then few people will dispute that fact. Same with physical condition, caliber size, reaction to danger, location, time, and so forth. It is when training or some other variable is presented as my way or the highway or as a distinction that trained people are inherently better than untrained that provoke a response.

People are complicated and live all sorts of complicated lives where they have to make tradeoffs regarding time and money (said money generally generated by exchanging time for work). Generally speaking, they will often do so in ways not pleasing to the dismay of "experts" in a field. People are told that they are not saving enough, don't eat right, don't have the right firearm, should not have a firearm, don't drink or drink alcohol, need to quit driving their cars as hurting the environment, they must keep their kids in bad schools to improve them, invest in whatever market is "hot", pay more in taxes, and so forth. As often happens, events often prove that the "experts" are just as ignorant as the hoi polloi--sometimes more so and an outside observer can often find people have made tradeoffs between costs and benefits in a quite rational fashion (aka the wisdom of the masses).

It is also almost impossible to judge until after an unfortunate event occurs just how someone will react--will they freeze, charge in bravely, be foolish, be wise, be cowardly, etc. People have survived things that by normal statistics, they should have not--and I would not term these people "incompetent" as they succeeded at the highest challenge which is to survive. A fighting spirit is something that would be difficult to instill at best. They had a difficult problem and somehow managed to survive it. Others should have survived by rights and did not. Terming them generically as "unlucky" or "incompetent" may or may not suit the occasion.

Trained individuals can and have lost (Given's database of past trainees includes two individuals who lost that did not have a firearm on them) and the shoot out in Miami indicated that the FBI agents despite being trained could be surprised to their detriment and so forth. Untrained individuals can win, especially in the sense, that success really should be measured as survival and being unharmed along with repelling the potential danger. If we take the idea that training and planning improve the odds in survival, then few are upset. Arguing others succeeded by blind luck who did not have such issues is demeaning and probably incorrect. If someone hits an half court shot in a basketball game, all that matters is if the shot makes it or not--not whether they trained for it. Now, training can improve the odds of doing so somewhat but the variables of that chance moment can defy probability for an instance.

By most measurements there are between 1 million to 2+ million defensive gun uses every year--most do not result in death or injury--therefore represent "success". I suspect that only a fraction of those successful DGU's involved significantly trained personnel--e.g Thunder Ranch, Gunsite, DTI, etc. yet these "untrained" individuals survived and repulsed the assault on them.

The first rule of gunfights is avoid them in the first place, and situational and behavioral awareness that avoids a potential fight in the first place trumps all A second rule is flight to safety from an imminent fight is preferable to fight if at all possible whether or not legally you can stand your ground. Only then do you get into the tactics and strategy needed to win a fight where most firearms training focuses upon. After, you should be prepared then for the legal system which deals with the aftermath as well as the psychological and medical issues that may occur. Relatively few firearms trainers seem to focus on these areas.

For example, I doubt that most firearms trainers are that adept in all phases and probably are not "trained" for all circumstances--e.g. able to drive evasively and safely might be the best tool needed for an encounter--a shootout in and around cars is suboptimal. The number of people attending professional evasive driving schools is much less than those attending firearms training. Trauma medicine is another area, evaluating people and possible reactions still another, and so forth. The law is a whole nother area, especially as it applies to self defense as does financing one's legal issues.

Jim Cirillo, for example, was a highly trained officer, nevertheless, he kept a second sidearm in case the first jammed or ran out of bullets. I have no doubt that as a skilled firearms competitor that he could clear malfunctions, reload in a very timely manner, etc. However, the easiest and quickest solution to him was to carry a second firearm. Mas Ayoob called it the New York reload I believe. Many other people have figured out some way to execute similar "life hacks" that work for them.

Simply following John Farnam's dictum as the best way to avoid bar fights is to not go to bars, don't hang around stupid people, and don't do stupid things, etc. which you can gather from reading his books or even perusing his quips will cause most potential issues of self defense to evaporate. It is a life hack that eliminates most problems without the training and use of a firearm at all.

I am not arguing that professional firearms training is useless or that it doesn't improve odds. It clearly does as Tom Given's database indicates with a great majority of his students winning their fights. I am arguing against assuming that because someone has not done such training they will lose because they lack "virtue" in winning via an unapproved manner.
 
I believe we are talking past one another.
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I initially addressed your claim that: "As a racetrack vetenarian I’m used to using multiple different instruments on expensive thrashing 1,000lb animals requiring way more fine motor skills then a handgun." If you didn't mean that to be an argument against sticking with a single manual of arms, then I misunderstood and I concur that we are talking past each other.

Then you responded to my comment with a claim that: "...once the ppl are used to the STRESS of the situation I can take a minimally trained 15$/hr person and they can handle a wide range of different instruments in different ways- While training is important no disputing that- I honestly believe experience in dealing with situations that are dangerous and unpredictable is way more important- I mean most Asst can get up to speed in about 60 days..." If you didn't mean that as an argument against sticking with a single manual of arms then I misunderstood and I agree we are talking past each other.

In this last response you made the comment that: "I’m not saying that it’s an advantage to have different manual of arms just that in a lot of cases I don’t think it’s as big a detriment as the majority thinks it is." Again, if that wasn't arguing against going with a single manual of arms, then I haven't understood your claims and we are indeed talking past each other.

However, you seem to be quite adept at communicating via the written word and I don't see much in the way of ambiguity or inconsistency in your comments. You seem to be clearly and consistently arguing against the idea of sticking with a single manual of arms.

In addition, you seem to be doing so based on your ability as a professional who practices daily and on the fact that you can, in 60 days of one-on-one training instill this same ability into an assistant.

You keep bringing up stress inoculation and for what it's worth, I agree with you that stress inoculation is beneficial--but you might notice that I have not argued against this idea--other than to point out that instilling stress inoculation in any way other than real world events could reasonably be called training although you seem to be claiming they are two different things. Anyway, there are lots of things that are beneficial and that is one of them.

I do agree that someone with years of professional training in firearms use and who practices with firearms at a professional level on a daily basis, or someone who has the benefit of months of one-on-one firearms training from a professional is far more likely than the average gun owner to be able to learn multiple manuals of arms to the point that switching between them is easy. What I don't agree with is that your argument is remotely relevant to the average gun owner--or even to serious gun enthusiasts whose professional training is measured (at most) in hours, not months and who practice informally and relatively infrequently.
Jim Cirillo, for example, was a highly trained officer, nevertheless, he kept a second sidearm in case the first jammed or ran out of bullets. I have no doubt that as a skilled firearms competitor that he could clear malfunctions, reload in a very timely manner, etc. However, the easiest and quickest solution to him was to carry a second firearm. Mas Ayoob called it the New York reload I believe. Many other people have figured out some way to execute similar "life hacks" that work for them.
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Lance Thomas is, as far as I know, the most successful non-military, non-LE gunfighter in modern times. He was in multiple gun fights, faced multiple attackers more than once and prevailed each and every time.

His approach to firearm self-defense was to place guns around the shop where he could readily access them. He made sure all the guns were similar in operation and his modus operandus was to grab the nearest gun, shoot it until it stopped shooting, drop it, grab the next gun and repeat until the gunfight was over. Certainly, as a skilled watchmaker, he was more than capable of learning multiple manuals of arms and his ability to deal with stress was clearly not in question. Yet he still tried to simplify things as much as possible. I think it's a pretty good lesson.
 
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