.38 special loads for a gunfight?

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Mixed Nuts - in your post about the "gorilla", I might be inclined to shoot him in the thigh in an attempt to cripple him and end his ability to follow me.
You don't need to "kill" someone to stop the fight, but you DO have to be able to shoot with a certain degree of accuracy for either torso or leg(s).
 
Anyway, genuinely sorry that you felt assailed here. I should be more careful on issues where folks - myself included - have invested themselves. And in support of your choices, I sure there is anecdotal evidence of bigger handguns failing to kill bad guys with multiple hits, too.
No harm done. I'm usually not sensitive, bad night I guess.

Peace...
 
Mixed Nuts - in your post about the "gorilla", I might be inclined to shoot him in the thigh in an attempt to cripple him and end his ability to follow me.
You don't need to "kill" someone to stop the fight, but you DO have to be able to shoot with a certain degree of accuracy for either torso or leg(s).

If you're going to use deadly force, use deadly force. Aiming on purpose for an extremity makes a good case for it not being a deadly force issue but a case of maiming for a prosecutor, and, further, the thigh is home to some rather large arteries that will bleed a person out in minutes. Recently here, a man was shot in the head, and another was shot in the leg. The man shot in the head will recover; the man shot in the leg died near the scene. http://www.newson6.com/story/38345314/police-investigating-after-man-shot-killed-at-tulsa-bar
 
I'm gonna throw in my 2 cents worth about a "gunfight". First and most important, you got to be able to hit your target. A hit with a .22 short is better than a miss with a .44mag. 2nd on my list is being able to be able to follow up the first shot with accurate 2nd, 3rd etc. A perfect example of this presented itself over the weekend at my backyard range. There is a young mid 20's kid who is getting into guns and has bought a few from me. Looking for a carry gun and his choice was a 2.5" .357 mag. Of course when I was young, I would have had to have a magnum as well. I gave him a 2.5" model 66 loaded with 140 grain JCP that were loaded pretty much like you would buy off the shelf. The goal was to bring gun up and shoot 5 rounds in less than 5 seconds and hit center mass at 7 yards. He was about 75% on first shot and only once got any of the other 4 in the kill zone. The recoil and muzzle blast make back up shots nearly impossible for the novice shooter. Add the rush and nervousness that would be a part of a real gunfight and the average shooter is screwed. Even a skilled shooter can have problems with follow up shots with a lightweight magnum gun. I then had him run the same drill with my carry gun which is a 3" Model 64 K Frame loaded with Remington Golden Saber +P which by the way gave very impressive results on the luckygunner test. The difference was night and day. Recoil with the GS bullet is very manageable and after a few tries, he was getting 3 or 4 in the kill zone and shooting faster than with the magnum. There are so many theories out there about which bullet performs the best NONE of them perform if they done hit the target.
 
I carry a 642 in my pocket and I used to shoot lswc at the range and carry lswc-hp, but now I don’t even bother with hp ammo. The lswc are good 158gr@900 fps
Roll your own with rim rock and starline or buy the Remington 1000 pack. I like a heavy +p dose of aa#2 or lovex.
 
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I always liked the "Treasury load" in a snub. A 110 grain +P+ JHP. Wichester made it for many years.......may still make it. Dunno.

I quit carrying revolvers for serious purpose some years back.

The problem with the Treasury Load in a snub is the round is closer to a low level magnum. That's a lot of pressure in a j frame. After blowing out a few cylinders in j frames my agency said only in 357 magnums (although a 38 spl k frame is okay IMO).

Amother issue was the Treasury Load worked well if it was just a soft target. If the bullet had to penetrate something first it just didn't have the oomph to give adequate penetration or expansion even after penetrating light comcealment.
 
A lot of participants of this forum are very well informed on this subject. I have read several threads on SD ammo selection and performance here , all very informative and well intended. I must admit , though , all the information on penetration and expansion makes my eyes blur over after a time. I carry a 60 no dash , 1 7/8" barrel most of the time , otherwise a 3" J frame. Should I have the same load for each of the two barrels ; if so what would that be? What about winter clothing - different load to penetrate that barrier? 5 foot range vs 30 feet?

Those three little words which men find so hard to say--- I ... Don't ..... Know.

I have decided to take all of the guesswork out of this situation. My future carry load will be the old standard 148 gr. lead wad cutters. In the - God forbid - unlikely event that I need to discharge my revolver in self defense I will not know exactly how that bullet will penetrate or how it will expand , but I do know that it will pack a punch. I am certain that I would not want to be on the receiving end of one of those projectiles.

Some might say that I have copped out. Maybe so , maybe not , but I have one less thing to figure out.
 
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C23FF7FD-DCAE-482B-A930-C42B85434831.jpeg I’ve tried a lot of specialty SD ammo, each one acting totally different between my 2” and “3 revolvers, some I liked and others I didn’t.
There is one constant, train with what you’d shoot with(I’ve heard that said here several times), for both barrels and practice shooting, I use Underwood, cheap enough to practice with and my opinion, good enough to use for SD if it comes to that.
 
Griz22, I have never before heard of "blowing out" a J frame cylinder. It is noteworthy that J frames have more steel around the case than K frames. While there is no industry standard for +P+ I seem to recall that max pressure for the "Treasury Load" was either 22,500 or 23,500CUP.
 
Griz22, I have never before heard of "blowing out" a J frame cylinder. It is noteworthy that J frames have more steel around the case than K frames. While there is no industry standard for +P+ I seem to recall that max pressure for the "Treasury Load" was either 22,500 or 23,500CUP.

Yes Stumper but I've seen it happen on several steel j frames. While there may be more steel around the cartridge in a j frame I would surmise that the larger mass of the cylinder of the k frame contributes more strength. Otherwise k frames would let loose with lighter loads than a j frame. I carried Treasury Loads in a 2" Model 64 with no ill effects.

Your pressure figures for Treasury Loads look correct.
 
I have decided to take all of the guesswork out of this situation. My future carry load will be the old standard 148 gr. lead wad cutters. In the - God forbid - unlikely event that I need to discharge my revolver in self defense I will not know exactly how that bullet will penetrate or how it will expand , but I do know that it will pack a punch. I am certain that I would not want to be on the receiving end of one of those projectiles.

Some might say that I have copped out. Maybe so , maybe not , but I have one less thing to figure out.

You are correct in one way for sure. "There is no perfect load for every situation"' Ironically, my carry guns and yours are basically the same at least as far as barrel length. My favorite carry is a K Frame with 3" Barrel. On occasion, I will carry a 1 7/8" J Frame Model 60. After reading countless threads on several forums, watching videos till my head hurt and reading numerous reports and test, and spending many hours testing (girlfriend calls it playing) with a bunch of factory and handloaded ammo, I chose Remington Golden Saber +P 125gr as my carry ammo and would also do so if I was to carry a 4 or 6 inch gun. I also chose this over my own loads of the same bullet which I tried with 5-6 different powders. There are a bunch of reasons, but the most important ones are: The luckygunner.com test was very impressive. Not only the results with the Golden Saber, but their test was more intensive than any other I've ever seen especially since it showed actual results from 2" Barrels. I also with my very unscientific testing got several different bullets to perform as well with expansion, but penetration suffered. Also I got plenty to penetrate, but expansion suffered. And, I saw basically the same results from both length barrels. Also even though its a +P Load, the GS has a very manageable recoil. Last, it is very accurate in every gun I tried it in from 1 7/8" all the way to my 8 3/8". Not trying to change your mind on what you have chosen by any means, but I have been as confused as you seem to have been and now I'm 100% confident in my defense choice which I think mentally would help a lot if I ever get into a defensive situation.
 
This is good for my needs, I shoot well with them and I am comfortable they will serve me well for my needs.
I prefer Federal HST Micro Chronograph


I feel very comfortable with this load, penetration test
 
Me too
(No hash tag implied)

I like Buffalo Bore 158 grn LSWCHP +p and Speer GDHP 135 grn +p as others have mentoned. But, now I load the Federal 130 grn +p micro HST.

I am gething good results and recoil is very manageable.
 
I shoot Buffalo Bore 150 grain hardcast wadcutters out of the snubs.

I found the velocity of the Speer .38 + P 135 Grain Gold Dot Hollowpoints (SBGDHP below) to be a bit short of what is advertised. I found the 110 Barnes TAC-XP loads from multiple makers to be snappy and with a tendency to keyhole.

I found 158 grain loads to "jump the crimp" a bit in these firearms and felt their extended length in the cylinder combined with this presented a potential reliability issue on stout loads.

The Buffalo Bore 150 (HCWC below) rounds have a tight standard deviation out of both of my J frames and they shoot to point of aim without much jump. I expect they will penetrate well and that is my working premise for use. I do not expect to ever use another load in J frames unless I get lead poisoning or the load is discontinued.

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In larger firearms (S&W K Frame Model 19) I favor the Buffalo Bore .38 + P Outdoorsman 158 grain "keith" style hardcast SWC - way too much for aluminum/ti/scandi frames but nice in good steel. Of course the 19 is a .357 and can handle more.

The 150 hardcast round gives me a good idea about where the hole goes.

FYI: https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...uffalo-bore-150gr-hard-cast-wadcutter.275800/
 
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RPZ.

Lee already makes a mold for "Diablo" pellet looking 12 ga slugs that can be loaded in a normal shot wad/piston and given a common star crimp. I have not used them but reports were good.

About 30 years ago there were wasp waisted .50 cal sabot slugs on the market, originally for smooth bores, they worked even better in rifled guns BFR I believe they were called even though that means something else to my aging military mind (Big "Fine" Rock). I used them a bit in a cylinder bored Mossberg 500 and they shot better than my then standard Foster to 100 yards.

-kBob
BRI Ballistic Research Incorporated. Looks like Winchester bought them out at some point.
 
Actually the BRI slugs were the first of the modern sabot slugs from way back. The 12 gauge was a .50 cal and we thought they were going to be THE THING. Later folks insisted these BRI slugs were intended for rifled shotguns.....but when they came out practically no one had a rifled shotgun and they were marketed for smooth bore guns and magazine and annual articles appeared extoling their virtues in smooth bore guns. I liked them, but they cost about twice what garden variety fosters did in those days and almost as much as a Benneke so...…

I have a few laying about I believe one in the BRI blue shell and the rest in Winchester red

The BRI slug had a metplat smaller than .50 cal so something of an aerodynamic nose and a long wasp waist.

The slug I am talking about was much more like an actual diablo pellet, short and stubby compared to the BRI slug.

I believe Lee makes a mold for a more traditional looking slug that is to be loaded a shot wad. The slug has a sort of web inside the hollow base to allow it to be spun should the shell be fired in a rifled barrel.

As the BRI tended to be made of a harder lead than your typical foster slug, there was some speculation that they might be better at penetrating hard targets than fosters....naturally the Movie and TV industry immediately turned this into armor piercing shot gun rounds.....

You want weird shotgun rounds? Research what the French were doing with the 12 gauge in the 70's and 80's. The actually did make 12 gauge AP rounds and rounds that were meant to penitrate car glass and light building materials like doors and deliver a chemical agent like CS or DM.

Their Arcane pistol ammo gave me the heebie geebies, think copper/ bronze hardened pointed projectile and Plus P loadings. Met a tank commander that based on ARCANE's claims carried a .44 magnum revolver loaded with them incase a Soviet BMP or BTR60P got too close. He was convince the Arcane ammo would penitrate the turrets of either.

The French are strange people when it comes to arms and munitions

-kBob

-kBob
 
In a snub nose, I prefer to use semi or full wadcutters in a heavy (158 gr) bullet. I know we may overuse him, but Jim Cirillo is probably the penultimate example of combat with the .38 special. and he preferred HI Speed .38s the only one making those that I know of is buffalo bore and MAYBE Underwood?

DoubleTap also makes a 148 grain wadcutter. I also am a proponent of the wadcutter/semi-wadcutter. In addition to deep penetration and the ability to penetrate bone, I suspect that lower-pressure loads must make easier to hear and think if you are forced to fire indoors. I can't imagine firing .357 indoors - it must really rock the inner ear. I also reload a 158 grain hardcast semi-wadcutter that is pretty low-pressure, for this specific purpose.
 
DoubleTap also makes a 148 grain wadcutter. I also am a proponent of the wadcutter/semi-wadcutter. In addition to deep penetration and the ability to penetrate bone, I suspect that lower-pressure loads must make easier to hear and think if you are forced to fire indoors. I can't imagine firing .357 indoors - it must really rock the inner ear. I also reload a 158 grain hardcast semi-wadcutter that is pretty low-pressure, for this specific purpose.
I've had to shoot a pitbull before with a semi wadcutter, the results were enough to convince me of its effectiveness. I have never fired a .357 indoors, but I have fired a .44 magnum and that was not a fun experience, I still get ringing in my left ear and this was years ago.
 
I'm just curious, has anyone advocating for Buffalo Bore and Underwood actually sent their ammo over a chrono from the gun they intend to carry them in? Results? High of lower that advertised? (no embellishing please)
 
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