Guy won't directly ship blackpowder revolver, claims needs FFL

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yeet

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So I'm looking at a blackpowder revolver online from a pawn shop, good price for the condition and what not. Shipping was quite high so I asked about using different services (haven't purchased it,) then guy started to ask for arranging an FFL. I told him in a response email that blackpowder weapons are not legally firearms and thus do not require an FFL. He's trying to tell me that because there are conversion kits out there (gun doesn't have one or come with one) that it is a modern firearm and needs an FFL. As far as I know, this is complete BS. I know Cabelas and other companies directly ship black powder guns to people, as long as there's no conversion cylinder in the same shipment or installed in the gun. Am I wrong here?
 
IIRC Illinois requires FFL transfers even for muzzle loading rifles being shipped out of state.
The transfer is regulated by state law.

Some gun shops here will make a buyer fill out the Federal Form even though our state doesn't require it, the shop just wants a record of who the buyer is to satisfy its owner.

Cabela's just got sued for shipping a C&B revolver to an ineligible person in Ohio, who then killed someone with it.
Ohio treats C&B's as firearms and requires a background check which Cabela's allegedly did not follow. --->>> https://www.news5cleveland.com/news...shop-for-selling-antique-replica-gun-to-felon

Some shops don't want to investigate what the laws are in each jurisdiction, so they may just ask for an FFL across the board for all purchases.

I recently tried to buy a muzzle loader from a private individual that was listed on Armslist, and he would not sell it to an out of state resident, even though I offered to pick it up.
There was no legal reason, he can sell to who he wants to and can make his own requirements.
 
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IIRC Illinois requires FFL transfers even for muzzle loading rifles being shipped out of state.
The transfer is regulated by state law.

Some gun shops here will make a buyer fill out the Federal Form even though our state doesn't require it, the shop just wants a record of who the buyer is to satisfy its owner.

Cabela's just got sued for shipping a C&B revolver to an ineligible person in Ohio, who then killed someone with it.
Ohio treats C&B's as firearms and requires a background check which Cabela's allegedly did not follow. --->>> https://www.news5cleveland.com/news...shop-for-selling-antique-replica-gun-to-felon

Some shops don't want to investigate what the laws are in each jurisdiction, so they may just ask for an FFL across the board for all purchases.

I recently tried to buy a muzzle loader from a private individual that was listed on Armslist, and he would not sell it to an out of state resident, even though I offered to pick it up.
There was no legal reason, he can sell to who he wants to and can make his own requirements.
Actually Ohio does not treat C&B revolvers as firearms requiring a back ground check.
 
I'm in Michigan, and until 2004 Michigan State law said C&B revolvers etc. were firearms. I've spent many hours explaining the federal and state laws to confused or ignorant sellers (with actual references to statutes). Most of the time, in the end, they have shipped to me easy peasy to my door.
I've also dealt with folks who have stated up front that they don't care what the laws are, they are only going to ship to an FFL. I just consider the extra hassle and transfer fee (without any actual transfer) in the purchase price.
The first thing I would suggest is to determine which basic camp this guy is in. Does he want to know what the law is or does he want to cover his butt times two no matter what.

Is this something extra special? There are a ton of C&B revolvers on Gunbroker and other sites and most of the sellers will ship to you no problem.
 
Actually Ohio does not treat C&B revolvers as firearms requiring a back ground check.

I used the word allegedly in the sentence because I'm not sure what the law is in Ohio that led to the lawsuit.
I hope that the lawsuit gets dismissed.
Someone mentioned to me that there was some controversy over the lawsuit but I have not read any updates.
But a quick search did come up with this info. from the NRA-ILA regarding Ohio gun laws & regulations:

Antiques and Replicas
Antique and antique replica rifles, shotguns, or handguns are treated like modern arms for possession, carrying and purchase purposes.

https://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/state-gun-laws/ohio/
 
I'm in Michigan, and until 2004 Michigan State law said C&B revolvers etc. were firearms. I've spent many hours explaining the federal and state laws to confused or ignorant sellers (with actual references to statutes). Most of the time, in the end, they have shipped to me easy peasy to my door.
I've also dealt with folks who have stated up front that they don't care what the laws are, they are only going to ship to an FFL. I just consider the extra hassle and transfer fee (without any actual transfer) in the purchase price.
The first thing I would suggest is to determine which basic camp this guy is in. Does he want to know what the law is or does he want to cover his butt times two no matter what.

Is this something extra special? There are a ton of C&B revolvers on Gunbroker and other sites and most of the sellers will ship to you no problem.

It's a used Pietta 1858 steel-frame for under $150 in like-new condition.
 
Never heard of that. But if that's his stance on it then I'd look elsewhere. If you have it shipped to an ffl I'd imagine his shipping rate will still be high plus whatever fee your ffl charges you.

Seems to me if shipping was high ($20+) and there was an ffl fee ($20+) then your Pietta would be around $200. Cabelas has them listed NEW for $269.99 free shipping.

I'd keep looking. Good luck!
 
If a person lives in a state that doesn't require an FFL for transfers of BP guns, then it's a good idea
to find an FFL that doesn't charge any fees to deal with transfers from states and sellers that do.

Many FFL's are sympathetic and won't charge to simply receive a BP gun when there isn't any
background check or paperwork involved for them, other than to FAX , email or provide a copy of their FFL.

They should know that they can make a new customer by doing someone a favor and that it makes for good customer relations.
 
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I used the word allegedly in the sentence because I'm not sure what the law is in Ohio that led to the lawsuit.
I hope that the lawsuit gets dismissed.
Someone mentioned to me that there was some controversy over the lawsuit but I have not read any updates.
But a quick search did come up with this info. from the NRA-ILA regarding Ohio gun laws & regulations:

Antiques and Replicas
Antique and antique replica rifles, shotguns, or handguns are treated like modern arms for possession, carrying and purchase purposes.

https://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/state-gun-laws/ohio/
Yeah it makes it a little confusing. If you are a prohibited person you can not own one same as with a modern firearm, to carry a percussion revolver or flintlock pistol for that matter concealed you must have a CCW permit. To purchase, if you are not a prohibited person, same as buying a pack of gum and it can be shipped to your door. I've been living in Ohio for 71 years and was a cop for 40 of those years so I've got it pretty well figured out.
The lawsuit will fail if it goes to court. They sued Cabela's because creep has no money and they are looking to get go away and don't bother me money from Cabela's. Some lawyers make their living in this manner.
 
Same in Kentucky

Ditto for Rhode Island, and curiously this state is in the top five as a liberal controlled state. in fact a LGS owner just told me, in answer to a question, one can buy a percussion revolver if it has the conversion cylinder installed. My question was what constitutes residency.( I own and occupy property in two states on an equal yearly basis.)
 
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I encountered the same situation recently. Apparently dealer/seller policies trump state and federal laws. I recently purchased two percussion revolvers. Midway shipped direct to me in the US Mail. The other seller insisted on an FFL even though there are no Wyoming legal restrictions. My FFL is an old friend and doesn't charge me for transfers, but did have me fill out a 4473. Bud's had the best price on one of the revolvers, but required an FFL. Customer service gave me the same answer as quoted above. Cartridge conversion units are available for the model I wanted.
Several years ago I ordered an 1858 Remington from Cabala's and it came direct to me. I purchase a conversion cylinder from another source with no hassle.

Milemaker 13 said: Talk to your local ffl and see what they want for receiving it, considering there will be no actual transfer... then add that to the price and if its still a good buy then go for it !

My FFL, who isn't always right on laws and regulations, said that because it was shipped from an FFL and he assumed the shipper entered the firearm on his books, then he had to enter the gun in his book and have me fill out the 4473 to "close the loop." I don't know anything for sure, except some sellers require shipping to an FFL and some don't for identical percussion firearms.
 
He's trying to tell me that because there are conversion kits out there (gun doesn't have one or come with one) that it is a modern firearm and needs an FFL.

So the same would apply to a Poly80 partially completed Glock reciever..., and it doesn't. It also doesn't apply to AR-15 upper assemblies, and all you need is to add the lower portion and you're ready to rock. :confused:

IF he thinks he's required to get an FFL and then ship it to that FFL holder, for the purposes of a sale then he would be required to have an FFL to sell it to a customer over-the-counter. Does he hold an FFL? Would he expect you to fill out Federal and State forms if you walked into his shop and bought it?

A lot of the local FFL dealers where I live will NOT send a copy of their FFL to a non-FFL holder (especially if it's a pawn shop), because they worry about it being altered and then re-used to illegally obtain an actual firearm by the pawn-shop guy.

LD
 
I can attest to FFL required in IL shipping in or out of state. Bought a couple T/C rifles from a friend here on the Forum, and he had to take them to his FFL to ship to my FFL.
 
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