Maybe you were wrong about Pocket Pistols

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Most shooters have disagreed. Maybe, some will change their mind after this?
No, I probably won't be changing my mind.

That reason is two fold :

The first is that I've actually had to use pistols twice to defend myself with. My big take-away lessons from both were that low-capacity anything really, really sucks, unless your front sight is glowing you probably won't be able to see it when it's for real (especially in poor light, at which point you'll point it at them as steadily as you can and fire), that you'll instinctually get behind whatever cover is available to you and that you can forget about this 'everything happened in slow motion' stuff. Small pocket pistols are all of those things that make shooting and getting hits difficult to begin with without even getting into caliber.

The second is that I've been going on shooting calls for the last 21 years and I've seen what the gunshot wounds actually look like and how much people are still able to move and fight afterward. Sometimes they do this even after being shot multiple times with 9mm's, .40's and 45's.

So after going through and seeing all that why would I ever use a small .22LR, .25 ACP, .32 or .380?

Personally when I shoot someone I want them blasted off their feet and to be completely atomized as if they got hit with an ACME ray gun and for there to be nothing left but a smoking hole as well as it being belt fed with sub-second reloads.

However I'm also confronted with the fact that most times criminals flee at the sight of any gun of any kind. So even though I very intensely dislike them at least people that carry them are armed with something.

When it comes to the video itself I don't think Chris Baker's (Lucky Gunner's host) mind isn't changed either. His two videos on pocket pistols are just a bid to drumbeat up YouTube views. Controversy sells. Their job is to sell.

Near as I can tell Chris Baker is still carrying the Beretta PX4 Compact (a 15 shot 9mm) or a S&W 3953 (a 9 shot 9mm).

In the end I think that people follow their instincts. Small, easy to carry and conceal pistols are .. well, easy to carry and conceal. People don't want their lives changed much, but they want to carry something and so they like videos like Lucky Gunner's that validate their life choices. : Shrug

Carry what you like and what you feel safe carrying. The only thing I'm saying is that once shots are actually fired any pistol (even the full size high capacity ones) are going to feel pretty puny.
 
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Today I pocket-carried one of my preferred J-Frames, a .38 Centennial.
An OLDER .38-only all-steel Centennial. :)

My regular local doctors here in a semi-rural area are perfectly fine with the sight of a Smith M&P 9mm on the belt under my shirt, but today was a specialist in a neighboring city.
I generally try not to scare these people, so I stick the .38 in a pocket & remove the heavy stuff from the belt.

Every time I do this, I remember the limitations thereof.
I can NOT get that thing out of my pocket, despite a good pocket holster, in a hurry from ANY position, unless I already have my hand in my pocket on it. Which ain't hardly practical as a general way of life in public.

Five shots only.
Aftermarket grips add some real estate to hang onto, but still not very big.
Tiny sights.
I do carry 6 spare rounds in a leather carrier in another pocket, but getting those out & reloading couldn't save me from an enraged snail in terms of speed.

The gun does give me more confidence than my Smith .380s that occasionally get tucked into various other places, because it's a quality revolver & the .38 (with the right bullet) can still be fairly effective even at snub velocities.
Still, it remains slow to get out, and into use.

It also, every time I turn myself loose with only that snub, reminds me of a haircut a while back.
Combining errands, visit to the clipjoint on the way home from a doctor.
Turned out my regular lady barber (barberette?) had her little brother visiting, and he sat behind me a few feet from my wife while I was in The Chair.

Baby brother was flying the colors of the Bandidos motorcycle club.
This was just a couple years after I'd retired from my PD.
After I was done & we got out the door, my wife told me little brother had scowled at the back of my head the entire time I was in The Chair, which caused me to wonder if possibly he might have remembered me from an on-the-job encounter that I'd forgotten long since.

And then, it caused me to consider certain contingencies, including thoughts about just how fast I could NOT get that little .38 out of my pocket, if I had to.
Funny now, still going to the same barberette today. Found out later that her dad was the founding president of the Bandidos chapter here in my state.
We all get older, and we all get...older.
I've never told her I'm a retired cop, but always ask how her family's doing, including Dad, Little Brother, ex-boyfriend in prison; you know- the usual stuff. :)

And I make it a point, even though Little Brother has resigned from the club & is a happy family man nowdays, to never get a haircut again with just a .38 snub in my pocket, where there's no way I can get at it with any kind of speed. :)

Otherwise, Browning has it.
When you do an entire career cleaning up after knives & guns, you notice patterns.
It doesn't take a Bowie knife to kill somebody, and a hit from a .22 or a .25 is very survivable.
So is a .380.

And misses from tiny guns that can't be fired effectively are 100% survivable.
At least- on the other side of the equation. :)
On your side, the aftermath of those misses may NOT be survivable.

Seriously- you can read stories and you can play the odds and you can decide that cute little pistol is just fine to navigate your world with.
But when you SEE, and you TOUCH, and you SMELL the blood, time & time again, it's no longer an academic discussion.
It's "People shot with smaller calibers (low energy) tend to remain functional longer & farther than with larger calibers (higher energy), over a broad range of sampling." :)
Denis
 
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run what ya brung! learn to shoot your weapon: right handed, left handed, both handed. practice a lot, until you are confident (not comfortable, not comforting) shooting your weapon.

make every shot count with your weapon. i focus on the cns (central nervous system) with my 380 acp caliber gun. practice a lot (dry firing counts double!!).

did i say, "practice a lot"?

works for me and my lcr II.

luck,

murf
 
The series will not change any ones mine but possibly a few. It has already been judged by the big bore guys before it even starts. (I knew this would happen). Does Chris Baker still carry a PX4 storm all day? I do not have a crystal ball so could not tell you what he will do until I actually open my mind and watch it. Amazing how quickly this has turned right smack into a caliber war. Some folks want big holes period and anything else is just inferior. I really do not care what a person carries. I am not a cop, and if so, I would also carry around a AR or Shotgun in the Car. I do not. I would also open Carry. I will not. And I will not carry something as big as a PX4 storm. Just is not going to happen and I will just join the majority of society that does not carry at all. I could care less what Chris Baker Carries, If he decides to wear a 1911 in a bonnet on top of his head, fine. I will not be going out to buy a Bonnet.
Why Not carry what you want. If you really want to carry a Desert Eagle 500 magnum do it. Hey, any thing else is inferior right? Should I walk around the Mall with a 223, or is that too small, maybe should get at least a 308. The Bigger is better philosophy has no end.
I do carry small 9mm's. But God!! I even hate to mention it, because the 40.cal big hole guys will come out of the wood work for a out right attack. I can feel them biting at the Bit, with just the thought of a measly 9mm and the Punks that carry them.
 
I dont find it difficult to strap on a duty size gun all day, year round, so pocket guns have limited use for me.

Even so I have occasionally pocket carried my ruger LCR and I shoot it pretty well in drills, though draw times are glacially slow compared to a belt gun. I used to do it more when I didnt carry every day by tossing (figuratively) the LCR in a jacket pocket instead of belting a bigger gun on.

Now that I decided to make the effort to be armed with a bigger gun daily I dont use the pocket gun often, especially when a Glock 26 on the belt is easy to carry, just as light (as far as I notice anyway) and holds more (and more effective IMO) ammo.

If I start running again, the little LCR might see time in a belly band again, but I find my basement treadmill works fine.

Rambling done, and I dont have a ton of use for pocket guns, and no use for anything smaller than a .38 special.

Just my opinion, YMMV
 
Within a certain framework, yes- bigger generally IS bigger.

I consider a 9mm to be perfectly viable & a much better choice than a .32, for instance. :)
Denis
 
Does Chris Baker still carry a PX4 storm all day? I do not have a crystal ball so could not tell you what he will do until I actually open my mind and watch it.

I don't know. It's not like I have his phone number in my contacts so that I can text or call him. Judging by what he has said in his videos he swaps back and forth between the Beretta PX4 (which he is a pretty big fan of), that single stack S&W 3953 and whatever gun he's reviewing.

So from what he's said he actually leans more towards the mid-size compact pistols and the occasional revolver (he seems to like those as well).

Amazing how quickly this has turned right smack into a caliber war.
Some folks want big holes period and anything else is just inferior.
For me it's less a caliber war than it being a discussion on pocket pistols and a video that you posted. That in turn prompted a discussion on what guns seem to work fairly well vs guns that are small and a little more challenging to shoot well.

If we were sitting down having a beer together you could hear the tone in my voice, see the expression on my face and then you'd realize that these aren't personal attacks against you.

We're just having a discussion. That's it. : Shrug

I really do not care what a person carries. I am not a cop, and if so, I would also carry around a AR or Shotgun in the Car. I do not. I would also open Carry. I will not.
Cops don't really break the shotgun or the AR out of the mount unless they're responding to a shots fired call and this is pretty much a CHL only conversation.

I'm sensing sarcasm though.

And I will not carry something as big as a PX4 storm. Just is not going to happen and I will just join the majority of society that does not carry at all. I could care less what Chris Baker Carries, If he decides to wear a 1911 in a bonnet on top of his head, fine. I will not be going out to buy a Bonnet.
Okay, don't carry a PX4 Compact then. It's not my place to tell you what to carry.

I was merely commenting that even Chris Baker (the host of the video that you posted) hasn't switched out pistols for something tiny.

Again, none of this is a personal attack on you.

Why Not carry what you want.
I do.

If you really want to carry a Desert Eagle 500 magnum do it. Hey, any thing else is inferior right? Should I walk around the Mall with a 223, or is that too small, maybe should get at least a 308. The Bigger is better philosophy has no end.
No thanks.
I'm pretty sure that you're being sarcastic in an attempt to poke holes in the bigger is better philosophy. Only thing is I fall more into a middle of the road guy.

I do carry small 9mm's. But God!! I even hate to mention it, because the 40.cal big hole guys will come out of the wood work for a out right attack. I can feel them biting at the Bit, with just the thought of a measly 9mm and the Punks that carry them.
I think you're taking this a bit too seriously and a bit too personally.
 
One of things that I've noticed in this thread is that the people who aren't willing to carry a pocket caliber are the people who have used a gun in self defense and are basing their decision on their experience. That speaks volumes to me.

I understand that there are times when your choice of sidearm is limited by dress code or an NPE but I'm not willing to compromise my ability to defend myself for the sake of fashion. If those are your priorities that's on you.

I'm more concerned with caliber than size. The smallest caliber I'm willing to carry is 9mm. I'd be willing to carry a .38 but based on my experience the smallest capacity I'm comfortable with is 10 rounds. Because my experience (there's that word again) has caused me to plan for at least two assailants. An LC9 is what I carry when I don't get to pick.

I also want to comment on Claude Werner's use of qualifiers. He says over and over again that a .25 or a .32 or a .380 will probably work most of the time if you have a lot of training. Maybe. I understand that a 9mm isn't Thor's Hammer but I don't hear anyone saying it might do the job.

ETA I think this thread is an attempt by the OP to justify his choice of a suboptimal weapon and he got mad when some of us dared to offer a different opinion.
 
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One of things that I've noticed in this thread is that the people who aren't willing to carry a pocket caliber are the people who have used a gun in self defense and are basing their decision on their experience. That speaks volumes to me.

I understand that there are times when your choice of sidearm is limited by dress code or an NPE but I'm not willing to compromise my ability to defend myself for the sake of fashion. If those are your priorities that's on you.

I'm more concerned with caliber than size. The smallest caliber I'm willing to carry is 9mm. I'd be willing to carry a .38 but based on my experience the smallest capacity I'm comfortable with is 10 rounds. Because my experience (there's that word again) has caused me to plan for at least two assailants. An LC9 is what I carry when I don't get to pick.

I also want to comment on Claude Werner's use of qualifiers. He says over and over again that a .25 or a .32 or a .380 will probably work most of the time if you have a lot of training. Maybe. I understand that a 9mm isn't Thor's Hammer but I don't hear anyone saying it might do the job.
Not trying to take anything personal, just felt I'd respond from the perspective of a guy that carries a pocket 380 90% of the time anymore. It isn't even a choice of fashion for me, it is career. Construction, at least with my build and general duties, really limits what I'm able to carry comfortably and even pretend to conceal. I'm not willing to turn away from a career I've put more than half my life building just because of my restrictions in carrying a gun. I would love, I repeat love, to carry my RAMI everyday. 10 rounds of 9mm in a platform I shoot just as accurately as any full sized I've tried. Outside of work I don't leave the house much except for class, a place I can't carry at all, so even though I don't consider the Beretta Pico my primary but effectively it is because of the percentage it gets brought along. Guys who have experience defending themselves have great insight and that tip about fitting a 1911 in a cargo pocket really has me thinking, I've learned a lot in this thread. Claude does use a bunch of qualifiers but the one thing I'm sure of is that probably and most of the time are much better than no chance by not being armed at all. These threads get so personal because we don't seem to see where each side is coming from. The bigger is better crowd is trying to be helpful by bringing a realistic truth that just having any gun is not always enough. The pocket carry crowd is also trying to be helpful by saying the other truth that for some people, like myself, the choice is between relying on a smaller platform with all its drawbacks or relying on the goodwill of strangers. I'm really enjoying this thread and others like it, please remember to breath before responding. I want to keep learning from all you with more experience and I can't do that if this gets locked down.
 
Fourth, I practice regularly with revolvers and have done so for well over a half century.

That indeed rings a bell for me. The first centerfire handgun I ever shot was a S&W .38, about half a century ago. The most recently I shot one was the last time I went shooting. By this time I have a good handle on the care and feeding of that sort of arm.

I watched the video, and I get what the guy is saying. "Break contact" is a satisfactory outcome. The private citizen is never honor bound to advance. In some jurisdictions, it obligatory to attempt, at least, to retreat.

All the same... I used to have a lovely little Beretta Jetfire .25, but I sold it because I had a tendency to carry it.
 
A 9mm might get the job done. Either caliber, or a 40 etc might get the job done. I am sure many have survived being shot by all of those. Which caliber will be effective is the one that actually hits the target not the one that does not. Which combatant will be the first to draw out of the holster and hit center mass? There is more to Calude Werners use of qualifiers. I suggest we study all of them and try and understand what is the main premise he is trying to bring across. I know a lot of shooters that cannot hit the side of a Barn door carrying any caliber. My money will be on the guy that trains diligently, trains often. Frequent moderate practice, consistency.. I would bet my life on it. Don't think just because you own a big gun, means you automatically win. And what is a win?
 
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I do not think the .380 should be lumped in with pitifuller cartridges. It is modestly capable. It overlaps in capability the lesser loadings of the .38 Special.

I would not want to go any lighter than either of those, but I think the modern pocket-sized .380 is a lap ahead of the .25 and the .32 isn't gaining on it.
 
I have been shooting since I was about 11 years old. Dad was a career Marine, avid shooter, avid hunter, we always had access to ammo and ranges.. I first started actually CCW about 12 years ago when my job as a Corporation Consultant had me traveling quite a bit and would end up in some bad areas. Most of the time, I wore a coat and tie. I would meet on any given day, a CEO of a company, a Maintenance supervisor, Truckers, Secretaries, and even had to give a few talks to small audiences. I first started CCW a Compact Pistol. I quickly learned that was just not going to work. Then a sub Compact. Sorry, Not in my job could I conceal it and feel comfortable with the gun any where I put it.
Later bought a Ruger LCP. Never forget my first shot. Horrible. Almost missed the entire target. High and left. And the little sucker hurt! The damn gun really got the best of me. But I was determined to master it. I figured if I was going to carry it, I might as well get good at it. For 10 years I trained and trained. A whole lot of ammo through those guns and went through a bunch of them. Practiced drawing over and over. It morphed into a Hobby. Now I totally enjoy them. I find them fun to shoot. And it is amazing how far you can push the limits of these little guns. Yes, I will carry a 380, and of course I will carry a 9mm Micro on every occasion, and the 380 will still go along as a backup.
YOU DO WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO. YOU MAKE THE BEST OF WHAT YOU HAVE!
For the past 3 1/2 years, I have been shooting the Ruger LCR9mm. Yes that little Snubbie has turned out to be the most fun shooting gun. I simply love it. Yes, I have and shoot compacts, large frames, rifles, shotguns etc. but I just totally enjoy the challange of the small guns.
Some say the 380 is nothing. As Cool Hand Luke said after winning a card game with no hand. "SOMETIMES NOTHING CAN BE A REAL COOL HAND"
 
Pocket pistols have their place, in other people's pockets.

After having watched enough video footage of others, some great shooters with regular sized guns, fumble with drawing and after trying it myself I have determined they have no place in my pockets.

I also have no problem concealing comfortably something larger on my hip that is not only more reliably dispatched but that I also shoot better. I personally think this could be the case for a lot of folks that think they can't but it's a free country.
 
I have been shooting since I was about 11 years old. Dad was a career Marine, avid shooter, avid hunter, we always had access to ammo and ranges.. I first started actually CCW about 12 years ago when my job as a Corporation Consultant had me traveling quite a bit and would end up in some bad areas. Most of the time, I wore a coat and tie. I would meet on any given day, a CEO of a company, a Maintenance supervisor, Truckers, Secretaries, and even had to give a few talks to small audiences. I first started CCW a Compact Pistol. I quickly learned that was just not going to work. Then a sub Compact. Sorry, Not in my job could I conceal it and feel comfortable with the gun any where I put it.
Later bought a Ruger LCP. Never forget my first shot. Horrible. Almost missed the entire target. High and left. And the little sucker hurt! The damn gun really got the best of me. But I was determined to master it. I figured if I was going to carry it, I might as well get good at it. For 10 years I trained and trained. A whole lot of ammo through those guns and went through a bunch of them. Practiced drawing over and over. It morphed into a Hobby. Now I totally enjoy them. I find them fun to shoot. And it is amazing how far you can push the limits of these little guns. Yes, I will carry a 380, and of course I will carry a 9mm Micro on every occasion, and the 380 will still go along as a backup.
YOU DO WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO. YOU MAKE THE BEST OF WHAT YOU HAVE!
For the past 3 1/2 years, I have been shooting the Ruger LCR9mm. Yes that little Snubbie has turned out to be the most fun shooting gun. I simply love it. Yes, I have and shoot compacts, large frames, rifles, shotguns etc. but I just totally enjoy the challange of the small guns.
Some say the 380 is nothing. As Cool Hand Luke said after winning a card game with no hand. "SOMETIMES NOTHING CAN BE A REAL COOL HAND"

Who writes for you at work?
 
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