I'm discovering a "new" caliber: 38S&W

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Redcoat3340

Redcoat3340

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My oldest had a .38S&W K200 (38/200) that he never shot. I kinda glommed it off him. But I never shot it either.

Then I went looking for a topbreak revolver to add to my "collection" and came across an H&R "Defender" from 1947 that was in good shape and a bit underpriced. I bought it figuring with two in the caliber it made sense to buy some ammo.

Shooting them was really fun: .22-like recoil, some really interesting guns with some history; sort of elegant and delicate (not like my 38/44 Outdoorsman which is a beast); and mostly affordable.

I'm now up to 5 including the Defender, a 2 1/2" H&R 925, a Colt Police Positive, a S&W 33-1, and the 38/200 Smith. I'd like to add one more, a Smith "Perfected."

I know these are not for self defense (I've got enough in 38, 9 and 45 for that) but they are just such a joy to shoot. Pure range pleasure. The only downside is the ammo cost is more than .38 special. But I may get some dies and bullets, pull out the reloading gear and start rolling my own.

Anyone else find these a kick (to shoot or collect)?

(And yes, I know, unless there's pictures, it didn't happen. It's been a busy week but I'll try and get some shots.)
 
I'm one of the fools that thinks 38S&W can also be great for personal protection. As you mention they are a joy to shoot and I have found them to be super accurate. The speed loaders for the Detective Special and Smith K frames work well with the Police Positive and Webley/Enfields while the J Frame speed loaders are fine with the Smith Top Breaks. Granted, with the little Smiths you only have 4 shoots before a reload but there is no reason not to load all five if a reload situation was warranted.

The Webley/Enfields are pretty ruggedly made handguns as are the Colt Police Positives.

For much of modern history a two shot derringer was considered adequate protection.
 
Isn't stating "Discovering a new caliber" and then putting 38 S&W like saying I just discovered a rock. ;)
You are correct, it is a very pleasant round to shoot and in the right gun can be very accurate. I have two Enfield Mk2** both made in 1942. I haven't shot them in years, ammo cost is just silly.

jar said:
I'm one of the fools that thinks 38S&W can also be great for personal protection. As you mention they are a joy to shoot and I have found them to be super accurate. The speed loaders for the Detective Special and Smith K frames work well with the Police Positive and Webley/Enfields while the J Frame speed loaders are fine with the Smith Top Breaks. Granted, with the little Smiths you only have 4 shoots before a reload but there is no reason not to load all five if a reload situation was warranted.

The Webley/Enfields are pretty ruggedly made handguns as are the Colt Police Positives.

For much of modern history a two shot derringer was considered adequate protection.
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The British found the 38/200 to be inadequate as a combat cartridge, and preferred the 38 Slp.
 
"The British found the 38/200 to be inadequate as a combat cartridge...." I don't remember how they settled on a 200 gr. lead pill, but I do recall that they went to a 178 gr. jacketed slug for Geneva Conventions reasons. I wonder if that load is the one you're referring to, Gunny?
 
GunnyUSMC said:
Isn't stating "Discovering a new caliber" and then putting 38 S&W like saying I just discovered a rock. ;)
You are correct, it is a very pleasant round to shoot and in the right gun can be very accurate. I have two Enfield Mk2** both made in 1942. I haven't shot them in years, ammo cost is just silly.


The British found the 38/200 to be inadequate as a combat cartridge, and preferred the 38 Slp.
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Actually, IIRC, the issue was that the 38/200 was too effective and thus like hollow point rounds in violation of the Geneva Convention. The British continued using the 38S&W with different bullets long after WWI. IIRC the Webleys and Enfields in 38S&W remained as the duty handgun in quite a few of the British Empire Police forces as well as other National Police Forces right on up into the 1960s and 1970s. Granted they were often used alongside other calibers and configurations as well. Hong Kong, Singapore and Israel stick in my mind as police departments still using the Webley Mark IVs IIRC.
 
No one ever said the 38/200 round was too effective. It was available commercially in the US before and after the British Army used it, and it never turned out to have any special effectiveness at all, AFAIK.

My understanding of the reason why the British switched from a lead 200 grain bullet to an FMJ 178 grain in their .380 Enfield revolver load was that Germany complained about the use of plain lead bullets, on the grounds that they expanded on impact and thereby violated the Hague Convention. (This was before WWII actually started). This was more or less nonsense, because plain lead pistol bullets generally only expand if they hit heavy bone or steel plate. But in the spirit of diplomacy and appeasement, the British decided not to argue about it.

I agree that 38 S&W in its orginal 146 or 148 grain loading (it's late, and I can't remember which) is indeed very pleasant to shoot, and it had an excellent reputation for accuracy. As I understand it, the 38 Special wadcutter target load was designed to duplicate the ballistics of 38 S&W.

BTW, the Hague Convention concerned weapons. The Geneva Convention concerned treatment of prisoners, and probably other things I can't recall. Like I said, it's late.

I think the 38/200 load was supposed to get its stopping power boost from the bullet tumbling on impact, since it was both overlength and rotating slowly (due to its low velocity) compared to the standard 38 S&W load. This did not work, either because it did not tumble, or because tumbling did not help, I have no idea which. It was one more failed pistol stopping power theory.
 
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Monac said:
No one ever said the 38/200 round was too effective. It was available commercially in the US before and after the British Army used it, and it never turned out to have any special effectiveness at all, AFAIK.

My understanding of the reason why the British switched from a lead 200 grain bullet to an FMJ 178 grain in their .380 Enfield revolver load was that Germany complained about the use of plain lead bullets, on the grounds that they expanded on impact and thereby violated the Hague Convention. (This was before WWII actually started). This was more or less nonsense, because plain lead pistol bullets generally only expand if they hit heavy bone or steel plate. But in the spirit of diplomacy and appeasement, the British decided not to argue about it.

I agree that 38 S&W in its orginal 146 or 148 grain loading (it's late, and I can't remember which) is indeed very pleasant to shoot, and it had an excellent reputation for accuracy. As I understand it, the 38 Special wadcutter target load was designed to duplicate the ballistics of 38 S&W.

BTW, the Hague Convention concerned weapons. The Geneva Convention concerned treatment of prisoners, and probably other things I can't recall. Like I said, it's late.

I think the 38/200 load was supposed to get its stopping power boost from the bullet tumbling on impact, since it was both overlength and rotating slowly (due to its low velocity) compared to the standard 38 S&W load. This did not work, either because it did not tumble, or because tumbling did not help, I have no idea which. It was one more failed pistol stopping power theory.
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Yup. Got my conventions in a wad it seems.
 
I have a few rounds of the British 178 gr. jacketed bullets. I shot a couple. Recoil was just a little more then the standard Remington 38 S&W that I bought to shoot.
I was in Hong Kong back in 1983. I didn't see and Enfields or Webleys carried by the Hong Kong Police, they were carrying S&W Mod. 10s in 38 Spl. While at one of their Police Stations, getting a fellow Marine out, I didn't see any other firearms.
 
What a coincidence! I just loaded some 146 grain for the first time a couple of weeks ago. They were for this 1920 vintage Regulation Police:

38RP.jpg

I was amused to see in the reloading guides that the starting and maximum loads were the same number for some powders. It's a very mild shooter. I also have a Victory 38/200, but it's one of those that's been bored out to .38 Special, so I don't know how well it would do with .38 S&W. I kind of wish they hadn't done that.

There's also this little H&R, but it's black powder only (from the late 1880's):

hr.jpg

I have the powder, but haven't gotten around to loading any yet because it will be tedious and I'm lazy.

Someday I'd like to have a S&W Terrier-- basically a Chief's Special in .38 S&W.
 
I had several Enfields over the years. I like the top break with the auto ejection.

They are under powered but that is the best for top break actions
 
Steel Hayes said:
View attachment 807948
There are times between the .38/.32 S&W, that I can’t tell which round I enjoy shooting more?
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I have to agree with this. I think I favor the .32, but I load all of my 32s fairly strong whereas I load 38 pretty weak. They feel about the same, but the bark on the .32 is notably more peppy, and penetration is deeper. Perhaps I need to increase the collection of .38 lead slingers to test some theories. I could certainly stand to try out a webley and a victory.
 
My Grandfather found an old nickel plated/black rubber gripped S&W 3rd model top break revolver in the grass alongside of the paved road leading up to the old ranch road waaaaaay back in the 1940's. In the 5-shot cylinder it had two .38 S&W empty shell casings that had been fired and three left in the chamber.

We always assumed it may have been used in a crime somewhere, but no one ever reported one in the rural counties where he lived so the gun haunted the bottom drawer of the gun cabinet for decades. (I have no idea why he never turned it in!)

After he passed in 1990 I have no idea where that gun and it's three unfired cartridges went. I will assume they were sold off like several of his other guns that I didn't inherit.

Stay safe!
 
How many remember the Ruger Service-6 that was chambered in .38 S&W for the Indian police...it was marked .380 Rimmed

Now that's a gun I'd really like to own. Tell me more...

(While I dial up google and do some research).
 
It is the regular Police Service-Six chamber in .380 Rimmed (.38 S&W, 38-200) for a police contract for India in the late 80s. While intended for export, a few overruns got out of the factory

Besides the chambering difference, they were equipped with a lanyard loop on the butt.
 
We tend to forget that for much of the world rounds like 7.65, the baby 9s (9mm Corto, 9mm Kurz, 9mm Browning), 38S&W and many more relatively smaller calibers were considered the norm for police and military service right up until recently. This includes generally warm areas where light clothing is the norm as well as cold areas where heavy many layered clothing is the norm.

But for me, Lanyard Loops has always meant British Empire and French Foreign Legion.
 
I remember reading a British officer's comment on .38-200. ".38-200 is an excellent man-stopper; shoot them through the skull and they drop in their tracks!"

I have a number of guns that chamber .38 S&W and I reload it regularly, usually with LSWCs. I mostly fire it from my S&W top-breaks, and penetration is comparable to .380 ACP ball. Very pleasant round to shoot, and offers very good accuracy, even from a very short-barreled gun. I typically carry one in my pocket around the property and in the workshop- which makes it my most common carry gun.
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