Oldschool shooter
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Have you given any thought to the 257 Roberts? Better in nearly every way to the 243 for deer, definitely not punishing on recoil. I know it's a kind of oldschool cartridge, but still a dependable round.
Deer rifle for 12-13 YO, 6.5 Grendel?
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silicosys4
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A .270 or maybe a 6.5cm would be my recommendation. My first deer rifle at 12yo was a 30-06 which I used that year and 10+ years afterwards. In my experience a youth doesn't require a weaker cartridge just because of age or stature, just more instruction and preparation for that step up in recoil. I'm kind of a "suck it up and learn to deal with it" type of guy
That being said, there have been some good suggestions in this thread and for deer under 200yds, a .243 or 6.5 Grendal would work just fine, I'm sure
That being said, there have been some good suggestions in this thread and for deer under 200yds, a .243 or 6.5 Grendal would work just fine, I'm sure
First centerfire rifle I ever shot was a .30-06 running Remington corelokt 180s (cause it was a 700, duh
).I've still got a pretty good flinch unless I'm shooting at game, or consciously walking through my sight, breathe, break routine.
I'm nearly positive that if I hadn't gotten wacked by that 06, over, and over, and over, again as a kid I'd be a better shot while practicing.
You should see me with a handgun, 6-10" low left, 3-6" groups at 25yds. Doesn't matter if it's a 9 or 44, I flinch the same way.
Shotgun? Don't load it, and it's hilarious.
Its not even that recoil hurts me anymore, I shoot a .375 Ruger that delivers some significant numbers.
I KNOW it's not painful, but that initial lesson is hardwired in there now. Unless I have a focused objective, I'm going to flinch.
I'll never tell anyone they need to shoot a bigger gun, unless they NEED to shoot a bigger gun.
FL-NC
Member
+1 on the Ruger American in 300 B-O. 16" barrel, short and light, and essentially recoil-free. Good soft points available in the 125-135 grain range. I got mine for $368 OTD at a gun show last year. What's more, should you desire at a later time, that gun is an excellent host for a suppressor. And FWIW, my last 5 deer were killed very efficiently with 223, Hornady 75 grain BTHP match.
Olympus
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The CZ 527 Carbine I had in 7.62x39 sure surprised me with its recoil. It wasn’t a hard recoil, but it was certainly more sharp than I was expecting.
My vote is still TC Contender in any number of good calibers, 527 Carbine in 223, or Ruger Ranch in 300BLK. You could also try a lever action in 44 Mag. If you reload, I’ve got some mouse fart loads for 44 Mag that are borderline hearing safe. Doesn’t kick anyone than a 22LR. Great for practicing and then use a full power load for hunting. Would be less recoil than a 7.62x39.
Definitely no to 270, 6.5 Creed, and 30-06. Those should wait a few more years.
My vote is still TC Contender in any number of good calibers, 527 Carbine in 223, or Ruger Ranch in 300BLK. You could also try a lever action in 44 Mag. If you reload, I’ve got some mouse fart loads for 44 Mag that are borderline hearing safe. Doesn’t kick anyone than a 22LR. Great for practicing and then use a full power load for hunting. Would be less recoil than a 7.62x39.
Definitely no to 270, 6.5 Creed, and 30-06. Those should wait a few more years.
Skylerbone
Member
A few more options, and I don’t promise they’re better than the excellent suggestions above. Descriptions with pics.
Left to Right: Ruger American compact stock, T/C Compass, Ruger American Predator. Ruger action was moved from standard to compact stock and older style rotary mag ordered to fit 11 yr old. Note LOP compared to the completely stock Compass.
Seekins brake added makes 6.5 Creed recoil like .223
Showing LOP difference in Ruger stocks. Paid $100 ordering from Ruger CS.
12 yr old shooting .44mag. from a CVA Hunter single-shot ($250 from Buds).
My 11 year old with the same .44mag. Her normal rifle is a Henry lever carbine in .357mag but this one extends useable range.
I would happily add my vote to the 6mm crowd or 7.62 x 39 crowd or Grendel crowd for that matter. None of these will exceed the recoil tolerance of a young shooter if carefully set up. My 9 yr old also shoots up to .44mag and he’s a hair under 60 lbs.
Left to Right: Ruger American compact stock, T/C Compass, Ruger American Predator. Ruger action was moved from standard to compact stock and older style rotary mag ordered to fit 11 yr old. Note LOP compared to the completely stock Compass.
Seekins brake added makes 6.5 Creed recoil like .223
Showing LOP difference in Ruger stocks. Paid $100 ordering from Ruger CS.
12 yr old shooting .44mag. from a CVA Hunter single-shot ($250 from Buds).
My 11 year old with the same .44mag. Her normal rifle is a Henry lever carbine in .357mag but this one extends useable range.
I would happily add my vote to the 6mm crowd or 7.62 x 39 crowd or Grendel crowd for that matter. None of these will exceed the recoil tolerance of a young shooter if carefully set up. My 9 yr old also shoots up to .44mag and he’s a hair under 60 lbs.
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KYregular
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While lead is bad I agree, I also agree with over thinking it. I remember growing up and watching commercials in the 70s about kids eating lead paint chips. Anymore people think if you touch lead it's all over. I can't count the number of times when I was younger that I bit down on a lead split shot sinker with no adverse problems.
silicosys4
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First centerfire rifle I ever shot was a .30-06 running Remington corelokt 180s (cause it was a 700, duh
I've still got a pretty good flinch unless I'm shooting at game, or consciously walking through my sight, breathe, break routine.
I'm nearly positive that if I hadn't gotten wacked by that 06, over, and over, and over, again as a kid I'd be a better shot while practicing.
You should see me with a handgun, 6-10" low left, 3-6" groups at 25yds. Doesn't matter if it's a 9 or 44, I flinch the same way.
Shotgun? Don't load it, and it's hilarious.
Its not even that recoil hurts me anymore, I shoot a .375 Ruger that delivers some significant numbers.
I KNOW it's not painful, but that initial lesson is hardwired in there now. Unless I have a focused objective, I'm going to flinch.
I'll never tell anyone they need to shoot a bigger gun, unless they NEED to shoot a bigger gun.
The proper introduction to moderately recoiling rifles helped me, I'm sure. I didn't want a kids gun, I wanted what the grownups used. I didn't have much choice in the matter, honestly, when I was old enough to hunt deer, my father came home with a j.c.higgins model 50 in 30-06, handed it to me, and that was my deer rifle. It was just like my father's deer rifle, and I loved it. It made me feel like a grownup instead of a kid carrying a kids gun, and I learned to deal with the recoil and shoot well with it, because that's what the grownups did. I still remember sighting it in for the first time, a 3" group about 1" high at 100yds, and how proud i was when my father said it was plenty good enough to kill a deer. Ymmv.
Not trying to hijack a thread, but i guess my point is, don't underestimate what a 12yo can handle, and some kids are eager to "step up", so to speak, to what they perceive as an adult level of participation.
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someguy2800
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The first centerfire rifle I ever shot was a Remington 7600 in 30-06 at a friends farm at age 13 or so. I had fired thousands of rounds of 12 guage shotgun up to that time including quite a few boxes of 3” steel waterfowl loads. Still when I shot that 30-06 laying prone on the ground I thought I’d just been kicked by a horse.
I'm getting some great ideas and information from this thread. My current thinking is a lightweight bolt-action rifle in 6.5 Grendel would be an ideal deer gun (I'm ready to go with the 527). But I'm reluctant to introduce it after experience only with .22LR. The boys are not recoil-macho or anxious to shoot big guns. When I was a boy, I was. Now I'm like Loonwolf, and vulnerable to interference from involuntary reactions. For myself, I've adopted the "suck it up and learn to deal with it" approach too. Honestly, I've seen results with that. I'm convinced you can't really overcome something without facing it. Avoidance is just that. On the other hand, I've got a boy who's showing good skills, doesn't want recoil, and I owe it to him not to jack him up. I've got another boy who needs to work on basic skills, the fundamentals, and I owe it to him not to jack with him while he's working on those things. He would be better served to stay on the rimfire for a while than to go to even a low-power .243 or .264, but I'm determined to get out of the rimfire. Therefore, I'm probably going to go with a step between .22LR and their first deer rifle -- probably a .223-based chambering or one of the Hornets.
The lower recoil of the smaller cartridges will be a safe bet, and bullets are considerably less costly (.223 and .243 varmint/target bullets for reloading are both quite a bit less than .264). I'm sure a .223 or .300AAC would be fine for first deer under 50 yards, but long-term, years from now, they'd be too limiting for a primary deer rifle when you don't want to pass on a 200-yard shot. Long-term, I'm not sure we have much purpose for a bolt-action in .223, but it seems like a logical next step even if we'll have to get to 6mm or 6.5 by the time we're ready for deer.
The lower recoil of the smaller cartridges will be a safe bet, and bullets are considerably less costly (.223 and .243 varmint/target bullets for reloading are both quite a bit less than .264). I'm sure a .223 or .300AAC would be fine for first deer under 50 yards, but long-term, years from now, they'd be too limiting for a primary deer rifle when you don't want to pass on a 200-yard shot. Long-term, I'm not sure we have much purpose for a bolt-action in .223, but it seems like a logical next step even if we'll have to get to 6mm or 6.5 by the time we're ready for deer.
someguy2800
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A 223 will be a really nice thing for them to have just for practice due to ammo cost.
If you handload then your problem of picking a cartridge is solved. You can handload any of these cartridges to extremely low levels and incrementally increase the charge with every range trip. My old man loads 223 to 2000 fps with a 50 grain vmax using a few grains of bluedot. Lots of published load data for reduced loads online. If you are willing to commit to doing that I would get a youth bolt rifle that you can add stock spacers to in 6.5 creedmore. Load it down with a 100 grain bullet at 2000 fps to start with, and work that up to a 120 at 2500 when they are ready to hunt. Then as they grow you can adjust the length of pull to fit them, and by the time they are 15 or so they should be able to shoot full power 6.5 creedmore loads. By that time they will have their own opinions and you can help them buy an adult rifle they can take with them through life.
Also whatever you buy make sure to get something with a comfortable length of pull for them. They are going to need something in the 12 inch range to comfortably handle the rifle and a front rest to take the weight of the rifle during practice and while hunting. A decent shooting tripod of some kind for hunting.
If you handload then your problem of picking a cartridge is solved. You can handload any of these cartridges to extremely low levels and incrementally increase the charge with every range trip. My old man loads 223 to 2000 fps with a 50 grain vmax using a few grains of bluedot. Lots of published load data for reduced loads online. If you are willing to commit to doing that I would get a youth bolt rifle that you can add stock spacers to in 6.5 creedmore. Load it down with a 100 grain bullet at 2000 fps to start with, and work that up to a 120 at 2500 when they are ready to hunt. Then as they grow you can adjust the length of pull to fit them, and by the time they are 15 or so they should be able to shoot full power 6.5 creedmore loads. By that time they will have their own opinions and you can help them buy an adult rifle they can take with them through life.
Also whatever you buy make sure to get something with a comfortable length of pull for them. They are going to need something in the 12 inch range to comfortably handle the rifle and a front rest to take the weight of the rifle during practice and while hunting. A decent shooting tripod of some kind for hunting.
I totally agree, if the kid in question shows that they can handle the recoil and WANTS to step up to a larger cartridge, I totally support that.
In my case, I'd never fired anything larger than a .22
Had I shot some other rifles, or shotguns before that 06, I would probably have been better prepared.
I think somewhere between 5-10ft/lbs of energy, and as little blast as possible, is a good starting point.
After that, step up when the shooters skills, tollerance, and desire allow.
In that vein of thought, I consider the Grendel, x39, .223 and other similar options, better choices than even the .243, 6.5cm, and others of that performance level.
This is when used in firearms sized/weighted to be comfortable for smaller shooters to carry, and operate unaided.
Mn Fats
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I get the first part. If the second part was truly a concern, I'd be dead long ago.
I like the fact that bolts are being considered. A kid today seems to opt for the AR they use playing call of duty. So props on the bolt action.
6.5 grendel out of a CZ sounds like a pleasure to shoot. Sweet little rifle. In fact, that was my next rifle in line until it got bumped by a great deal on a Browning 30-06.
Good luck.
Right. The rifle they shoot now is cut down to 12". I notice a lot of "youth rifles" are 12.75" and that's too long. Also, they use a bipod. I tried front rests for a while but bipods just simplify things. I've got a tripod, but I'd also work on using a bipod from sitting position in practice. It takes a longer-legged bipod but not as long as for an adult sitting.
As for downloading bigger cartridges, the problem becomes the weight of the rifle. I have an 8 pound magnum that I don't really love. To me, even as an adult, a 6 pound mini action sounds a lot more appealing to spend days in the woods with. I don't see one of the lighter mini-actions as ever being outgrown if they can carry the energy for medium game out to 300 yards. People will probably go through a period in their life where they want a 3000 ft.lb rifle, or a 1500 yard rifle, but they will come back to just what's needed for the job.
Now maybe I could download the 6.5 Grendel and not have to worry that there's too big of a jump from .22LR. I'm also considering a CZ 527 in .223 or a Ruger 77 in .357.
ColoradoMinuteMan
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It’s been interesting with my daughters growing up. For them it seemed to almost be more about the sound than anything that would cause them to hesitate of flinch. Most centerfire rifles have a similar decibel range when they have a similar barrel length, but the tone seemed to be a big thing for them. .223 In the AR would sound much different to them than 7.62x39 out of the SKS. They would shoot the SKS all day, but hesitated with the AR15. Weight could have been another consideration as well since the felt recoil of an SKS is very little due to the weight, but the sounds also was deeper and less startling for them. Even when I would shoot next to them with .223 they would jump when I would shoot, but again the SKS just seemed to have a much less startling sound for them and even my .277 WLV AR15 wouldn’t bother them a bit.
someguy2800
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The mini actions are really not that light. The howa is the same dimensions as there normal bolt action, just shortened another 1/4" or something. The lightweight barrel howa and the CZ's are about 6 lbs, which is the same as a ruger american compact or a Tikka T3 compact. The tikka also comes with a stock spacer. I'm personally of the opinion that cartridges in the size of a 6.5 grendel are marginal but less than ideal for northern deer or mulies, but others with disagree. Im not going to argue that point, its just my opinion based on my experiences.
silicosys4
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My concerns with an unexperienced hunter using a marginal round like the .223 for deer is one of ethics. An inexperienced hunter might not have the accuracy necessary to make an ethical shot, or might be overconfident in the cartridges abilities...like taking shots beyond the capabilities of the cartridge.
I've never agreed with the idea of giving a rifle that requires more than average experience and judgement to an inexperienced hunter.
There is a hard truth too, hunting deer requires the ability to handle a cartridge that is capable of reliably making an ethical kill even with some fudge factors, and if a youth can't , then the hard truth is that the youth isn't ready to hunt deer.
The .223, for me, isn't a suitable deer hunting cartridge except for a hunter experienced enough to use it accurately and with the restraint/knowledge to recognize and pass up sub optimal shots. Many beginning hunters have neither the accuracy nor the restraint, imo.
Just giving food for thought, not saying your children dont.
I've never agreed with the idea of giving a rifle that requires more than average experience and judgement to an inexperienced hunter.
There is a hard truth too, hunting deer requires the ability to handle a cartridge that is capable of reliably making an ethical kill even with some fudge factors, and if a youth can't , then the hard truth is that the youth isn't ready to hunt deer.
The .223, for me, isn't a suitable deer hunting cartridge except for a hunter experienced enough to use it accurately and with the restraint/knowledge to recognize and pass up sub optimal shots. Many beginning hunters have neither the accuracy nor the restraint, imo.
Just giving food for thought, not saying your children dont.
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Excellent point, and one I totally agree with.
I've said it before that a new hunter should use the largest rifle they are comfortable with, and that's where I see an advantage to the 6mm+ cartridges bassed on the .222-223, 300aac, 6.5G, x39, or 6.8spc, over the .223
With little extra recoil, or blast you can increase bullet mass, and penetration, if not total wounding.
Personally having used the .223, 6x47rem, 6.5G, .300aac, and x39, I'd choose the Grendel for a beginning rifle.
I've GOT the 6x47 now tho, so it's likely going to be my kids first hunting gun.
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I love the 6.5 Grendel. I haven't tried it on game, but I can say for sure that it works great on paper and steel. It should be a good one for a kid to learn on, enough power I would think to work well on deer, but still with pretty light recoil.
I think it's about the best you'll find in something smaller than a .308-class cartridge (.308, .243, 7mm-08, etc)
The Hornady 123gr SSTs are my go-to Grendel rounds
I think it's about the best you'll find in something smaller than a .308-class cartridge (.308, .243, 7mm-08, etc)
The Hornady 123gr SSTs are my go-to Grendel rounds
Skylerbone
Member
All of mine have made the transition with most stepping right up to .357 Honestly with .38spl in a rifle I was alarmed that it didn’t go off despite the target having a hole in it, it shot that softly and without much noise. It bummed me out in fact, knowing I’d spent good money on less rifle than the kids were ready for. And while the smallest just manages to shoulder his 4lb .22 without a shooting stick even he can handle .44mag recoil with no reservations.
I also appreciate that at $250 the CVA is easy to get in to or out of if you decide to sell. BUT the Ruger in a compact with brake and a LimbSaver using double ear pro is easy to practice with and the brake easy to remove for hunting season.
I have a little experience sizing for kids.
rayatphonix
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I have several CZ 527’s, two in Grendel. The first I put together myself before CZ offered the Grendel option. With a 120 gn Nosler BT it’s a fantastic round for deer. These have become my favorite rifles anytime I don’t anticipate a shot over 200 yards. I think it’s a rifle that will last a lifetime.
Ks5shooter
Contributing Member
I like this in 7mm-08 starts as a youth rifle comes with 1 in spacer so you can add later on as kids grow. 7MM-08 is light shooting and great for deer etc.MHO,its what I use for deer
https://tcarms.com/firearms/bolt-action-rifles/venture/venture-compact
$429 free shipping no CC fees
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/788636936
https://tcarms.com/firearms/bolt-action-rifles/venture/venture-compact
$429 free shipping no CC fees
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/788636936
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This is about the same experience I had as a kid.First centerfire rifle I ever shot was a .30-06 running Remington corelokt 180s (cause it was a 700, duh
I've still got a pretty good flinch unless I'm shooting at game, or consciously walking through my sight, breathe, break routine.
I'm nearly positive that if I hadn't gotten wacked by that 06, over, and over, and over, again as a kid I'd be a better shot while practicing.
You should see me with a handgun, 6-10" low left, 3-6" groups at 25yds. Doesn't matter if it's a 9 or 44, I flinch the same way.
Shotgun? Don't load it, and it's hilarious.
Its not even that recoil hurts me anymore, I shoot a .375 Ruger that delivers some significant numbers.
I KNOW it's not painful, but that initial lesson is hardwired in there now. Unless I have a focused objective, I'm going to flinch.
I'll never tell anyone they need to shoot a bigger gun, unless they NEED to shoot a bigger gun.
To the OP, you are going about it correctly. My first deer was with an SKS @ 125 yds. I shot it better than my brother's scoped 30-06 because it fit me and didn't kick like a mule.
If you get him a 243, use plugs and muffs because muzzle blast can cause a flinch. Target shoot with the lightest bullets you can find. Then sight it in just before deer season with a heavier load.
IdahoSkies
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I have three youth hunters with me and the all prefer using my .277 Wolverine to any other round. It's a 5.56 parent case necked up up to a . 270. It pushes 90 to 100 grain bullets at 2600 fps. It's really mild shooting and is effecitve out to about 250+ yards and pretty flat shooting.
Barrels are available for Savage builds I believe if you are looking for a bolt. And cartridges are commercially available though you'd have to mail order them.
Barrels are available for Savage builds I believe if you are looking for a bolt. And cartridges are commercially available though you'd have to mail order them.
Mosin Bubba
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Seconded. I'd shot x39s through a 9 pound SKS and it felt like a big 22 LR. When I first put them through a 5 1/2 pound CZ, there was more pop than I was expecting.
I guess the main thing is what kind of hunting is this kid going to be doing. If it's walkabout hunting, my greatest concern would be weight. If it's stand hunting, my greatest concern would be recoil.
I think the best balance between the two would be a 243. The recoil is a little "fast" / sharp like those CZs, but you will never have to worry about being underpowered, or running out of range, or only taking ideal shots. Any deer a 12yo has any business shooting at, it will kill.
As far as the specific rifle, that comes back to the weight vs recoil thing I mentioned. You could get away with a lot heavier gun in a stand than you would in the field.
If you are carrying around, a CZ 527 in x39 would be absolutely ideal for a kid, but you do start running out of range and energy past 150-200 yards or so. If that's all the farther you're hunting than it would work, but I wouldn't want to be taking shots at 200-300 yards with one while I'd have zero qualms about doing that with a 243. Have no experience with the Grendel, but it may be a nice compromise.
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