List the copper reducing powders please....

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Fatelvis

Fatelvis

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Can anybody list the powders known to possess the copper fowling reducing chemicals? I know of CFE223, TAC, IMR4166. I'd like to incorporate them into more of my reloading, if their burn speeds are appropriate for the caliber. Thanks!
 
All the IMR Enduron powders. Ramshot X-Terminator. The Hodgdon powders with CFE in their names.

I just now got that info from a google search, so just to be extra careful you'll have to confirm it yourself.

Are you sure TAC has copper fouling reducer? A February press release from Ramshot says X-Terminator is the only one.
 
243win, thanks for that link. I was shocked to learn that most Alliant "RL" powders have it. I love when company reps chime in on these matters.
 
Are there any definitive, scientific, statistically valid tests showing that these copper fouling powders actually do anything?
PS: not anecdotal;)

For the average shooter who cleans their firearms. Not for full auto, shooting thousands of rounds in a day.
 
I bet they could be useful in some of the more "coppery" big magnum calibers. I believe that 28 Nosler has been found to leave quite a bit of copper in the bore.

No real data on them, but I know CFE 223 has shot pretty well in cartridges that I use Varget in. Not switching or anything like that, but it does a good job at the very least and I would have no qualms about using it.
 
Decoppering Agent.
Rule3 said:
Are there any definitive, scientific, statistically valid tests showing that these copper fouling powders actually do anything?
Click to expand...

Yes. Military testing . Lead foil was first used, then tin, the new one has bismuth, compounds.

http://www.vihtavuori.com/en/news/22
All Vihtavuori reloading powders produced today have an added decoppering agent, also called anti-fouling agent.

16.03.2017
Click to expand...
See barrel photos at link. On page, click PDF link for more info.

In general, from doing a quick google (barrels decoppering agent testing) , it works. vihtavuori-decoppering-agent-comparison-100-shots_450x264.png

My question is, do our cleaning solvents remove these new decoppering agents??
https://m.facebook.com/vihtavuoripowders/posts/1152168241560898:0
 
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243winxb said:
Decoppering Agent.

Yes. Military testing . Lead foil was first used, then tin, the new one has bismuth, compounds.

http://www.vihtavuori.com/en/news/22
See barrel photos at link. On page, click PDF link for more info.

In general, from doing a quick google (barrels decoppering agent testing) , it works. View attachment 238637

My question is, do our cleaning solvents remove these new decoppering agents??
https://m.facebook.com/vihtavuoripowders/posts/1152168241560898:0
Click to expand...

Thanks for the links. Call me Mr Skeptical but a in house test by the powder maker (in this case VV) really is not a non biased statistical test)

Heck the chart with 10 shot groups is all over the place. After group #10 is one of the best of the whole new powder results??

Old powder group #10 is 71 but a previous group #7 is twice that at 152??

How was accuracy determined, in a locked ransom type rest or what?

If I recall copper fouling additives (Tin) was used in military application back in the 1800"s or something (might even be French!)so it's nothing new.

Not saying it doesn't work but seems folks have survived for many years without it. Kinda like we need #41 primers for 5.56 AR loading now.
 
1975 5" guns http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a307250.pdf Yes, i think its new for small arms types like 5.56.

Would seem to work best with high volume shooters, like machine guns. If we shoot and clean every 20 or 40 rounds, may not be a problem with copper buildup??

But take a rough barrel or shoot all copper bullets, i would want to use a powder with a decoppering agent. Why not, cant hurt. :)
 
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Fatelvis wrote:
Vihtavuori powders are looking better and better to me lately. Gotta try them soon.
Click to expand...

What has always held me back has been the fact they were hard to find where I lived and when I could find them, they were much more expensive than competing powders. Before the local Gander Mountain shut down, I could pretty much count on them having Bullseye in stock for $24.99 a pound. If I drove a couple of cities over to a store that carried comparable Vihtavuori powders, they were $37.99 to $39.99 a pound.
 
I liked VV N320, but hard to find and I just didn't think it was worth close to 50% more than other powders.

I don't know that I would buy a specific powder because of the copper fouling additive, but if the powder works well for me then I would consider it an added bonus.
 
I was told that all Alliant Reloader series powders contain this "decoppering" agent. I called Alliant and spoke to their technician and he confirmed that all Reloader powders, with the exception of RL17, contain decoppering agent. He laughed and said Hodgdon started claiming that as if it was a new thing, while they have been doing it all along.
 
Your experience with IMR 4166 needed.

Thinking about trying some IMR4166. Looks useful in 223, 243, 3006 for some bullets i use.

Decoppering agent info is interesting to me. There is a MSDS and patents to look at.

Patent https://patents.google.com/patent/US5565643A/en

Decoppering agent is pulverized bismuth metal, dispersed in a nitrocellulose binder.

This may result in a significant amount of actual propellant being displaced and overall interior ballistics may be detrimentally impacted. If the decoppering pellets are made with a high percentage of pulverized additive, they may not burn properly and leave unwanted residue in the gun chamber.
If the grains break apart during loading or handling, they will not burn properly during combustion.
Click to expand...

The low percentage used in small arms is not a problem? I guess?

Your experience with IMR 4166 needed.
 
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He laughed and said Hodgdon started claiming that as if it was a new thing, while they have been doing it all along.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I'd like to see proof of that. Copper reducing action is a marketing bonus....surely seems that if many were doing it before, they'd have used the info in marketing to get a leg up on the competition....or at least bothered to tell us about it.
 
For what its worth, I've run 8 lbs of IMR 4166 through my AR and at this point and haven't noticed a discernible difference in copper fouling vs Varget or BLC2.
 
After using RL10, CFE223 and RL16 for a while now, I have to say that I notice a dramatic reduction in copper fouling in my bores. Yes, they do tend to leave a brownish, sooty deposit in the barrel that is easily removed. But I figure that is better than copper fouling.
 
Copper fouling is still a lot better than lead fouling. At least there are a FEW solvents that actually can remove copper, Lead is pretty much a manual. physical removal.
 
Received an email reply for ADI that manufacturers these powders, that Hodgdon distribute.

These powders do NOT contain a decoppering agent.
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Rule3 said:
Thanks for the links. Call me Mr Skeptical but a in house test by the powder maker (in this case VV) really is not a non biased statistical test)
Click to expand...

I'll say this: in scoring the cardboard targets in USPSA, I can often tell who is using the pistol CFE powder. It frequently causes a darker and more distinct "grease ring" around the bullet hole. Is that copper? IDK. But it seems like it is doing something.

I've never used it myself.
 
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