Trend going forward with gun control laws - Pumps and Levers to experience resurgence?

I've converted a few non-owners into the gun owner types here in CA, and I am always in the market to convert a few more.

It's never easy, and with the non-stop media hype on every shooting (and sadly, making folk heroes out of the shooter) it's tougher and tougher to make a pro-gun point. I still try though...

Stay safe!

Well back to the OP I used to own one of the Remington 7615 rifles and really liked it. But I hated the sticky, grabby recoil pad on it. It was a Limbsaver pad that grabbed your shirt every time you raised or lowered the gun. I should have bought the youth model buttstock for the 20ga shotgun and that would have helped. But it pointed so well. Just look at what you wanted to shoot and raise the gun and you were on instant target. I sold it because I bought two Mini-14s and needed to reinfuse my gunfund. If I get the chance to own another I will be all over it. I never lost a single piece of brass. It was short and light. Just a darn good concept I thought. And someday it may come to that here. I have read they are popular in Australia. So are lever guns.

And I love my lever actions better than my semi-autos. I don't have a lot of semi autos. I am more of a bolt and lever fan. And BP rifles. And revolvers, And... hell who am I kidding. I like 'em all.

My bird gun is a SXS, hunt deer with a single shot and tote around a SA in the Woods because I’m comfortable with them.

My life prior to CCW was hunting focused, no need for plastic. I oppose any infringement on RKBA but if it happens I will continue on with my choice of firearms as best I can.

Slamfire said:

The text and discussion of the Washington State Measure can be found here:

https://ballotpedia.org/Washington_...ship_and_Purchase_Requirements_Measure_(2018)

There are storage requirements, safety tests, all placed to make it a burden to exercise a Constitutional right.

In terms of predicting the future, I recently read that there have been 307 mass shootings in the last 311 days. Constitution or not, if a democratic form of Government feels there is a real and present danger, and even people feel strongly on the topic, the body politic will eliminate that danger. Democracies can be very illiberal against things they feel are a threat.

I do believe that there will be more semi auto bans, then followed by bans on weapons with multi round capacity, and it will go on till all weapons are banned or forbidden. Just take a look at the knife bans in the United Kingdom, and China. The Brits have these slogans :"Bin a knife and save a life".

When those bans come, you will have to decide to obey, or be crushed. I recommend leaving early adopter states and live in those states that are more freedom loving, gun friendly states.

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I might go for crushed, I’m old and set in my ways besides, I’ve never been on tv before! ;-)

I have had quite a few lever action rifles and prefer them over pump or bolt action rifles. I was toying with buying a .308 or a .243 bolt gun but Henry came out with the Long Ranger. If I see that they have decent accuracy I may get one. I have only owned 2 bolt action rifles. I always thought the bolt made no sense and it seemed so unnatural to me until the day I was lying prone to make a shot with my 30-30 Marlin. Then the light came on. Duh!

Trend or no trend, I would love to find a Remington 760 in .243 Win!

If semis were to be prohibited, I think the lever action rifle models featuring a loading gate would gain in popularity.

The Remington 760 Gamemaster I once possessed never struck me as a semi-automatic replacement in any way. It was clunky, the magazine didn't attach easily and the racking was far from being as fast or as fluid as with my Winchester SXP. In 30-06, it was maybe better this way. Soft pointed bullets sometimes scratched during cycling. The rifle never saw heavy use from its previous owner, whom I knew well, may he rest in peace, nor from myself. It was heavy, even without a scope. It was ergonomically unpleasant. I saw it as a bolt gun without a bolt to operate for those who really don't like them. Accuracy was on par with a regular bolt action rifle, if kept cold.

I can now compare it with my recently acquired Winchester 94 and say without a doubt this one is faster to handle, to cycle and to reload on the move. It is lighter too. So, if by replacing semis OP meant the dreadfully evil black rifles, from the choices given and taking into account a possibly intended use of such rifles as a defensive weapon in dire times and deer or coyote hunting, I would be led to believe that a good old 30-30 lever action could be chosen for up to a little more than a hundred yards. One has to have good eyes to shoot a coyote at 100 yards with my rifle.

For the longer range and target work, well, I hope scoped bolt actions would not be banned!

Two rifles would likely be needed to replace, not equal, what can be done with a good quality modern AR from my understanding (I don't have one, they are restricted over here). Hence, banning semis would maybe end up in more guns being sold... Now, explain that to the gun control advocates.

eastbank said:

when one of these(7615) was offered to me at a very good price, I bought it. I have not shot it to much, but I have ran 50 rounds thru it and it worked with no problems at all.

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Nice find. Just like mine with the excellent Wilson ghost ring sights and scope rail.

Slamfire said:

<snip>
When those bans come, you will have to decide to obey, or be crushed. <snip>

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You forgot the third option. Resist, and Triumph.

My primary home defense gun is a 30-30 Marlin loaded with 125 grain hollow points. That rifle with 6 in the magazine and 9 more loaded on the stock would be more than sufficient for most home invasion scenarios I can envision. With my home and neighborhood layout overpenetration isn't really much of a worry. An AR would probably be more effective but I don't really have any other purpose for an AR, and a lever gun seems a little less threatening looking if I ever had to defend using force against somebody breaking into my home.

Regardless of the reason, I would like to see more development with levers and pumps. Actually considering a 7600 as my one and only .30-06.

jmr40 said:

I don't see anything like that happening. But if it did, I predict bolt guns in a "scout" type configuration would be more popular than either pumps or levers. The military tested the theory of using lever actions back prior to WW-I and found bolt guns the better option. Levers are only faster if you're standing up shooting and exposed to enemy fire. And not significantly faster at that. Bolt guns are faster to operate from prone or from behind cover. They are faster to reload, especially with a DBM and even if limited to 5 rounds. Bolt guns are also more accurate, lighter, more reliable, and cost less.

Pumps have all the same negatives as levers. Although they can be almost as accurate as a bolt gun.

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What the military did before WWI or at any other time is irrelevant. Any government entity, military or otherwise, has considerations not applicable to civilian use.

Levers are faster, regardless of position. People who talk about issues with levers from prone must have never tried it. If you can shoot a friggin' AR with a 30rd magazine from prone, you can do so with a levergun.

Bolts are only faster to reload with loaded detachable magazines or stripper clips. The lever's magazine can never be lost or damaged.

Bolt guns are lighter if they're made to be. Many are not. Lever carbines are rarely much more than 6lbs.

Accuracy is also way overblown. I have at least two that shoot under MOA. Two MOA at worst. That is fine for most purposes.

If [shudder] all of my semi-automatic rifles and carbines were to vanish tomorrow I would still be well served with my lever guns.

A Marlin 39A would cover for my 10/22.

A Marlin 1894C in .357 would serve well as a home defense carbine.

A Marlin 336 in .30-30 or Savage in .300 Savage could handle most hunting duty.

AlexanderA said:

Don't think that living in a pro-gun state insures your safety. If enough states follow the example of New York, California, etc., a federal AWB won't be far behind. And the antis have learned from their "mistakes" in the 1994-2004 ban, and the next one will be a lot stricter. I honestly think we'll see this in the next 10 years, unless it's invalidated by the Supreme Court -- and that is not a sure thing, even with a conservative majority.

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The restrictions I see coming from congress will be a lot like the initiative that passed in WA. The initiative called out all semi-auto rifles. That even included the Ruger 10/22. They covered all the bases.

Any rifle which utilizes a portion of the energy of a firing cartridge to extract the fired cartridge case and chamber the next round, and which requires a separate pull of the trigger to fire each cartridge. "Semiautomatic assault rifle" does not include antique firearms, any firearm that has been made permanently inoperable, or any firearm that is manually operated by bolt, pump, lever, or slide action

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Currently 8 states ban high capacity magazines. That seems to be the direction we are heading, semi-auto rifles and magazines over 10 rds.

I'm holding on to my USGI carbine. Could fall under some obscure relic clause that the uniformed might think acceptable.

DannyLandrum said:

Here - this is the one I'm thinking of:

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That really isn't an AR-15. Just looks like one.

CoalTrain49 said:

The restrictions I see coming from congress will be a lot like the initiative that passed in WA. The initiative called out all semi-auto rifles. That even included the Ruger 10/22. They covered all the bases.



Currently 8 states ban high capacity magazines. That seems to be the direction we are heading, semi-auto rifles and magazines over 10 rds.

I'm holding on to my USGI carbine. Could fall under some obscure relic clause that the uniformed might think acceptable.

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I concur but will add no grandfathering, they’ll insist on turn in and destruction.

Internationally they banned the liqueur Absinthe for over a century, demonized it ridiculously, but lifted the ban almost two decades ago.

The century log ban just resulted in black market counterfeits that were worse.

Demonizing semi-autos is just as silly, useless and wasteful. "Your reformist demigods are just devils turned inside out."--Edgar Allan Poe

huntsman said:

I concur but will add no grandfathering, they’ll insist on turn in and destruction.

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A complete ban with no grandfather clause will result in a considerable amount of civic disobedience. Unjust, un-Constitutional laws will be disobeyed en masse.

DannyLandrum said:

With very-strict laws like the one that just passed by voter initiative in Washington (proving why republic>democracy), making all semi-autos highly regulated, are non-semi-auto repeaters, especially pumps such as the Remington 7600 and 7615 poised for a resurgence? Washington is not the first state to restrict semi-autos and won't be the last.

I can see a definitely uptick in sales in the future from buyers looking for fast self-defense rifles like the 7615 and such. Some AR15 maker made a pump for Calif. as well, IIRC, which looked pretty good. These laws could be good for that maker and big green, with proven designs already tooled up for..... at least until those states go full-feinstein and ban pumps like Germany and Australia have.

Here you go (speaking of rain rifles): https://www.remington.com/rifles/pump-action/model-7600/model-7600

Maybe the IMI Timberwolf will make a comeback! I can hope.

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You are just trying to make me sick right?

Two things. If you look it up, the Turks successfully used lever action guns against the Russians. https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a23149/winchester-rifle/

Next, citing civil disobedience about a gun confiscation is very nice virtue signaling. I'm sure it would happen and guns would be hidden. It's happened in places with bans. However, if a general ban on semis was imposed, the practical consequence would be:

1. Forget using them for competition or hunting. I shoot an AR once a month with about 65 guys in a well organized match on a well known range. In my particular squad there are three to four LEOs - local and Federal. Guess those matches are gone.
2. Use on in self-defense. Mas has recent article on using ARs in self-defense in Combat Handguns. He mentions me and the possible risk in court from a negative view of the gun and how to counter that. We've discussed that quite a bit. However, if there was a ban and you used an illegal gun, think that will help in an ambiguous shoot. Recall if you are in court, it is not a 'good shoot'.
3. At your divorce hearing, the other spouse will blab about your illegal gun.
5. Watch your kid babble about your gun to a kid friend. Kid tells Mom and Dad who don't like them. Hello, knock on the door.

So unless the bans are stopped from occurring nation wide or on a state level - the civil disobedience mantra is not that useful for practical use of the gun. Having it buried - well, so what. We can discuss if Kavanugh will lead SCOTUS to finally take a case but who knows. Congress, after the last election, and maybe after 2020 is certainly not going to give us any legislatively relief. The GOP current leadership has no interest in doing that as they would rather leave bans as possible for campaign issue puffery.

jmr40 said:

But if it did, I predict bolt guns in a "scout" type configuration would be more popular than either pumps or levers.

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agree with most of your post, except this.

I think the so-called "scout rifle" concept fills a very tiny niche among the shooting public, and would never be popular with more than perhaps 5 percent.

Sistema1927 said:

A complete ban with no grandfather clause will result in a considerable amount of civic disobedience. Unjust, un-Constitutional laws will be disobeyed en masse.

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Irish Democracy. Happened during prohibition in this very country.

I’m inclined to think that a design that automatically ejects a spent round but then locks the bolt open might be a next best thing type workaround to a ban on semi autos. The bolt release could be made to be an easy to hit finger lever.

I saw a European shotgun once that worked that way.

earlthegoat2 said:

I agree but disagree. Look at Pennsylvania as an example. Semi auto rifles were not allowed for hunting there for many years. (at least deer hunting that I know of). More pump rifles were sold there than most other states and I believe that is why Remington still makes pump centerfires and stopped making semi autos. Search pumpnrifles on Gunbroker and you will see many are being sold from PA as they recently legalized semi auto rifles there.

I know this is not your point but I make this point because at least in PA, many folks who would have used a semi auto otherwise probably opted for the pump rifle and not a bolt action.

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Semi-auto rifles are still not allowed for deer hunting in PA. The PA legislature and governor (Tom Wolfe- a liberal Democrat) gave the PA Game Commission the authority to legalize the use of semi-auto rifles for hunting. The PA Game Commission was about to approve the use of semi-auto rifles for big game (deer, elk, bear), but it conducted a survey and the majority of sportsmen were opposed to it. I was not one of them as I would love to have the option of hunting with a semi-auto. However, a lot of hunters have a mindset that "you don't need more than one round if you're a good hunter" or fear that people will haphazardly blaze away at running deer, etc. As a result of the survey, the Game Commission maintained manually operated rifles for big game, but permitted semi-autos firing a single .22 caliber projectile or below to be used for small game and semi-autos of any caliber for fur bearers.

It was a real bummer because had the hunters surveyed been in favor, we could hunt with semi-autos. That was not even the work of Democrats or anyone else.

With respect to your comments on the number of lever actions from PA, I doubt it has much to do with the recent changes to game laws. I find that a lot of guns of all types are sold by PA sellers on GunBroker and other sites. With how big deer hunting is in PA, I would expect to find a lot of hunting rifles being sold from PA. Most folks that I run into use bolt or lever actions with pump guns mainly being favored by left-handed shooters.

giggitygiggity said:

Semi-auto rifles are still not allowed for deer hunting in PA. The PA legislature and governor (Tom Wolfe- a liberal Democrat) gave the PA Game Commission the authority to legalize the use of semi-auto rifles for hunting. The PA Game Commission was about to approve the use of semi-auto rifles for big game (deer, elk, bear), but it conducted a survey and the majority of sportsmen were opposed to it. I was not one of them as I would love to have the option of hunting with a semi-auto. However, a lot of hunters have a mindset that "you don't need more than one round if you're a good hunter" or fear that people will haphazardly blaze away at running deer, etc. As a result of the survey, the Game Commission maintained manually operated rifles for big game, but permitted semi-autos firing a single .22 caliber projectile or below to be used for small game and semi-autos of any caliber for fur bearers.

It was a real bummer because had the hunters surveyed been in favor, we could hunt with semi-autos. That was not even the work of Democrats or anyone else.

With respect to your comments on the number of lever actions from PA, I doubt it has much to do with the recent changes to game laws. I find that a lot of guns of all types are sold by PA sellers on GunBroker and other sites. With how big deer hunting is in PA, I would expect to find a lot of hunting rifles being sold from PA. Most folks that I run into use bolt or lever actions with pump guns mainly being favored by left-handed shooters.

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FUDDs. Ya gotta love them. Those self same gun owning FUDDs will gladly give away YOUR Rights as long as it doesn't interfere with THEIR Rights.

Texas10mm said:

FUDDs. Ya gotta love them. Those self same gun owning FUDDs will gladly give away YOUR Rights as long as it doesn't interfere with THEIR Rights.

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Probably has a lot to do with older hunters and what they traditionally use to hunt with. Hunting isn't exactly a booming sport these days as fewer and fewer people hunt. I've never understood the appeal of a semi auto rifle to hunt with. Mostly because there are so many available cartridges for bolt rifles and so few for AR's (mag length restrictions). Also I've never used more than one shot from a rifle to put a deer down. The most popular chambering for the AR is 5.56 x 45 which isn't legal in this state for deer and never has been. AR's are legal but the most popular cartridge for AR's isn't so not very many people use them. If I had to bet I would say there are more bow and muzzleloader deer hunters in this state than rifle hunters due to state regulations.

As far as rights go I'm not sure anyone has any rights when it comes to hunting. I think all of that is determined by the game commissions in every state. I have to abide by the state game regulations on my own property. If I didn't I could probably shoot a deer on my property just about any time I felt like it. I don't think the term FUDD really applies here.