Explain the AR platform to me.

fpgt72 said:

Now this is a well thought out comment, none of the stupid when the world comes to an end and the zombies invade garbage.

Perhaps I am stuck in the past, I want something that will work, as well have class.....it seems many here are interested in no class....I guess I can get that. I have a hard time thinking in 100 years time people will be looking at an AR or glock and thinking wow I would really like to have one of those like they do looking at a Garand or 1903 to use examples already brought up.

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Tap the brakes there, cowboy. Like Riomouse posted, new firearms have not always been accepted right out of the box... the Garand, as fine a rifle as it is, almost should have been the Johnson. The Garand, while a fantastic rifle, had it's issues. The M-14, while a fantastic rifle, had it's issues. The M-16/AR-15, while a fantastic rifle, has it's issues. As far as whatever rifle fits you better, that's great. To be honest, you sound like an anti-gunner the way you denigrate the AR for how it looks (plastic) and the fact that you don't care for how it shoulders up for you. You don't know why anyone would want to own one...

I own an M1 Garand, an M-14 pattern rifle (a Socom16,) and AR's... they are all fine rifles. The M1 is a boat oar compared to my 16" AR carbine and I would not want to be kicking in doors with it. Both the M1 and M14 shoot a superior round, ballistically, than the AR, but it weighs more. Both the M1 and the M14 are a maintenance nightmare compared to the AR. There is that muzzle blast thing, too... This is not to say I don't love each of them in their own right, but give me a break. I don't ever bring up the fictitious zombie or EOTW nonsense, it's, well... nonsense. But Luke said it...

<*(((>< said:

But if they are not for you, they are not for you.

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...get over it and move on. You are going to burn yourself up with all that hate.

To me, the AR became popular because of a demographic/cultural shift as much as anything, and not because of the rifle itself.

"Gun culture 1.0", you could call it (let's spitball it as 1960-2000) tended to see guns as more of tools than "shooters" to blast away with. Almost everyone had guns, but they were more of a means to an end. You had a rifle or shotgun for hunting, or a .38 in the drawer for home defense. A guy who was "into guns" was someone who spent a bunch of money on some nice Weatherby magnums and Browning shotguns. Not a lot of people went to the range just to target shoot for the heck of it. There were always hobbyists and plinking got more common as time went on, but plinkers specifically will always shoot what's cheap. With all the cheap surplus guns on the market - depends on the specific time, but Springfields, M1 Carbines, Mosins, SKSs, and MAK 90s could all be had for next to nothing at different points - there were LOTS of options besides an AR.

ARs at this time were either very expensive or had some really dubious quality, so they didn't fit the mold of plinkers, and at the time they just weren't hunting rifles. I never saw an AR varmint rig till about 2000ish, and the AR wasn't suited any kind of big game because there just weren't the calibers for it. The first big bore AR cartridge I can personally remember hearing about was the 50 Beowulf, and that wasn't till Bush Jr's first term. So buying an M4 type rifle like a Colt 6920 for like $1000 at a time around say the 80s when SKSs were $80 and Minis were like $300 raised some eyebrows. You're clearly not going hunting with that thing, and it's way expensive/non mainstream for a fun gun... so what are you planning to do with it? Militia-wacko type stuff wasn't an illogical conclusion. It sounds Fuddish to us now, but it was a very Fuddish gun culture and there were reasons for it.

Then over the last generation, you start seeing a shift in America towards an more and more urban environment, and that's shifted people away from hunting and more towards a "gun culture 2.0" centered around shooting. The population of the US has gone from 180 million in 1960, to 250 million in 1990, to about 330 million today, and the vast majority of that growth has been around cities. More Americans are living there, and more and more open land for hunting and shooting is getting chewed up as our suburbs continue to bloat outwards. My dad's favorite hunting spot for grouse in the 1970s is now a four-lane highway with a Target at the exit. So the role of guns has changed, as there's simply nowhere for many people to shoot. For a lot of people, the only place they can go now is the range, where some of the good old boys in the Mountain West 50 years ago had never even seen a rifle range. And range shooting entails a whole different set of parameters than hunting, especially if the distance caps out at 100 yards or so like a lot of places. Trajectory and terminal effect stop mattering, so put away the 300 Win Mags, and accuracy and cheap ammo become by far the biggest priorities.

Around the time of the AWB, more people started buying ARs as a take-that to the govt, fear of further gun control, etc, and people started realizing that they're actually some pretty freaking sweet shooters. Even something like a Olympic will shoot circles around an SKS or a Mini, and you can feed an AR for $7 a box of ammo, and so ARs were just a perfect fit for what your average city-dweller shooter was looking to do. I'd say ARs were starting to become mainstream by about 2008. And as that happened, prices were driven down, quality was driven up as some of the incredibly chintzy 90s crap like cast receivers and recycled Vietnam M16 takeoff parts was well past not flying any more, and that's ultimately what's brought us to today. If you want the best gun to shoot on a range, it's the AR. If you're a casual plinker and want the cheapest gun to shoot on the range, it's an AR. Those kinds of people buy $300 PSA kits now the same way they used to buy $80 SKSs out of Shotgun News in the 90s. ARs just totally dominate the market and between cost, quality, and need, I just don't see that changing soon.

The aesthetics of the AR don't particularly appeal to me, although I like them more than I used to. The performance of the AR does appeal to me. Having shot most of the other military autos, the AR family seems superior by a large margin. More accurate, lighter, totally modular, more reliable - just flat out better. That gap has just widened over time, and I will put my two monolithic ARs (large and small frame LMTs with Rock Creek and aftermarket barrels) against ANY military auto ever made in terms of capability.

There are legitimate critiques of the .223 as a cartridge, but the gun is an obvious winner.

My personal taste runs towards wood and blue steel (the 1886 and M70 are my favorite actions) but in the military auto niche there's nothing that performs even close.

I have a 1903A3 Springfield, two Garands- regular and match converted-both rebarreled to 7.62X51, and an M-1 carbine. I love 'em all. Used the Match M-1 in bullseye competition.
I had an HK-91 and an M1A. Didn't like 'em and sold 'em.

But none of them compare with my ARs for my use. Strangely enough, of my 5 ARs, my old mid-70s vintage Colt SP-1 gets fired more than any of the others. It was my first AR, and you know how we all love "our first."

Llama Bob said:

The aesthetics of the AR don't particularly appeal to me, although I like them more than I used to. The performance of the AR does appeal to me. Having shot most of the other military autos, the AR family seems superior by a large margin. More accurate, lighter, totally modular, more reliable - just flat out better. That gap has just widened over time, and I will put my two monolithic ARs (large and small frame LMTs with Rock Creek and aftermarket barrels) against ANY military auto ever made in terms of capability.

There are legitimate critiques of the .223 as a cartridge, but the gun is an obvious winner.

My personal taste runs towards wood and blue steel (the 1886 and M70 are my favorite actions) but in the military auto niche there's nothing that performs even close.

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I agree. We can all nitpick about them but you can’t find anything better if you want a capable, accurate semi auto rifle.

fpgt72 said:

But past that, why are people so married to the AR platform....I just do not get it. Some guns are a work of art, fantastic wood and blue can make them just....well art. Ever see wood on an AR....nothing looks more out of place...and really ugly....ever see a case hardened parts on an AR...same deal, just looks stupid.

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Modular, affordable, ergonomic, accurate, light weight (depending on configuration), and available in a wide range of calibers and configurations.

What's not to like?

Blued steel and walnut are a far far cry from my definition of class. I’d like everyone to try this out: next time you’re at your favorite LGS, find the “nicest” rifle of those two materials available and take a long hard look.

Here’s what you won’t see: hand cut checkering. You’ll be lucky to have that laser engraved version vs pressed checkering that more closely resembles an accident involving a rasp. High polish deep bluing. Where the final surface prep involved 600 grit and was done with care. Old growth dense walnut. Sure you might get lucky enough to find 1 firearm in the whole store with actual figuring to the wood, but most is common ungraded trash. A nice finish. Looking past the shiny plasticoat causing you to wonder if the wood is real or fake, you’ll see fitment issues all round the receiver.

No sir! I categorically reject the idea that that combination makes for “class” in a rifle. Now in the $3,000 semi-custom rifle most of the above no longer apply, BUT how many of us are willing to dig so deeply in the name of looks? Now picture owning a half dozen in different calibers and the car you could have bought. 6 ARs would be possible with just the price of 1 “classy” rifle.

Another appeal to me, already pointed out by others, is parts. Forget about the $40 proprietary magazines or individual replacement springs, I mean parts! Want folding sights? You got ‘em! Fixed? Offset? Steel? Tritium? No worries. They mount right up, they’re aligned and fitting fine. Wanna co-witness with a red dot? The math is done for you by manufacturers. Looking for help at the muzzle? Common thread devices abound for the huge percentage of barrels pre-threaded.

Sooo many choices and yes, no gunsmith needed. If zombies never come it’s still nice knowing we can service our own rifles whether in Anchorage or Albuquerque using a few hand tools. I enjoy reading threads wherein one member sends another spare parts just because. You may never see the appeal or believe they have class but I can assure you that reading posts from High Roaders is proof positive that many AR owners are instilled with an abundance of virtues that cannot be pinned to an inanimate object. I would sooner commensurate with them here or at the range than stare longingly at a Royal Blue Colt.

Starting threads to pigeonhole owners of any specific platform quite frankly lacks class. To ascribe human traits to walnut and steel while maligning fellow members as wanna be’s, morphing words like practical into tacticool...I feel that lacks imagination. I’m not proud to own any of these things we collectively call guns. I enjoy them but they aren’t an extension of me.

In case it has not been said previously, AR's are an amazing and ingenuous example of engineering. That includes the direct impingement set up utilizing bleed off gas, a reciprocating bolt carrier and rotating bolt, to the ease of manufacture, to the modularity.

...yea I hate those as well...

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Some people are picky. I love them all, wood, plastic, rifles, handguns, shotguns, single shots, pumps, levers, revolvers, break open, bolt action, semiauto, full auto, loud, quiet, safe queens and shooters.

I save hate for more important things, like Brussels sprouts....


As long as you don’t support laws that would limit my options, I have no problem with your opnion.

MTMilitiaman said:

The armorers wouldn't let you turn in your rifle if they could find a single spec of dust in the picitanny rails or the around the pressure switch for the Surefire white light, or any number of other seemingly non-consequential places they knew to look.

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Guilty. There is a reason for that, though I was more worried about what the inside looked like, specifically the BCG.

My introduction to the AR wasn't stellar, either. ROTC, Dec. 1981, in Minnesota. First FTX, I was handed an M16A1 dripping wet with LSA, (the lube used before CLP), and a box of blanks, and was told "Load up, we are going to be attacked in 5 minutes". It was more like 2 minutes. I got off three rounds semi-auto before it jammed. I knew enough to pop it open and wipe down the BCG with my glove liner, and got it firing again. Didn't complete ROTC , but when I enlisted, I became an Armorer, so I'd know how to keep my rifle working. I made sure the people in my unit kept theirs working, as well.

Charlie98 said:

...get over it and move on. You are going to burn yourself up with all that hate.

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Maybe it keeps him warm.

fpgt72, I agree with jmorris here;

jmorris said:

As long as you don’t support laws that would limit my options, I have no problem with your opnion.

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That's what's great about owning guns in America. You can like or dislike, and own or not own, what you want. We've explained our reasons for for liking the AR, (though I admit I took a 20 year hiatus from it, and built AK's instead) if you don't like them after our explanations, that's fine. We tried.

entropy said:

and built AK's instead

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I was thinking about this post a bit ago and came up with that...

Someone explain the AK platform to me. I'm saying that as a rhetorical question, obviously. The AK has it's merits, in some respects it's better than the AR. The OP mentioned how he didn't like AR because it didn't 'fit' him.. I feel the same way about the AK. I think it's ugly.... and it's the Classic Wood and Steel we so cherish... right??? I don't care for the AK, I don't or won't ever own one... and that's OK, too. But it's a viable platform and I wouldn't knock anyone for owning one.

Forgive a long story, but I think some will find it interesting.

A dear friend and hunting companion used a Winchester 94 in .30-30 for decades.

He always wanted a Weatherby. At that point in history, both of us earned about $125 per week. MK V Weatherby's sold for ~ $175.

Dale saved his money for a couple of years. He found a new "Presentation Grade" .300 Weatherby for just north of $1000!!

A few weeks later we went elk hunting. Crawling through dead and down timber he got a little scratch in that fancy walnut stock.

He spent the next week with wax mixed with copious tears hand rubbing that scratch out of his stock.

The next trip to the mountains, his .30-30 was in his hands, and that Weatherby was hanging over the mantle.

So what lesson did I learn from this? The Winchester was designed to hunt with. The Weatherby was designed to impress your friends.

To be fair, there are some Win 94's (not necessarily presentation grade) that are too beautiful to hunt with too. My Dad had a beautiful one made in 1906 in .32 Spl. that he didn't even own a box of ammo for. It hung over the fireplace for years. He finally sold it when he moved to a house that didn't have a fireplace.

Entropy, I agree. But Dale's 94 was a "plain vanilla" off the rack 94, like mine.

cheygriz said:

Forgive a long story, but I think some will find it interesting.

A dear friend and hunting companion used a Winchester 94 in .30-30 for decades.

He always wanted a Weatherby. At that point in history, both of us earned about $125 per week. MK V Weatherby's sold for ~ $175.

Dale saved his money for a couple of years. He found a new "Presentation Grade" .300 Weatherby for just north of $1000!!

A few weeks later we went elk hunting. Crawling through dead and down timber he got a little scratch in that fancy walnut stock.

He spent the next week with wax mixed with copious tears hand rubbing that scratch out of his stock.

The next trip to the mountains, his .30-30 was in his hands, and that Weatherby was hanging over the mantle.

So what lesson did I learn from this? The Winchester was designed to hunt with. The Weatherby was designed to impress your friends.

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It was a similar story for me this deer season. I took my contender pistol, my Krag, and my 7.62 AR15 deer hunting this year. I was intending to primarily use the Krag. Well I shot a deer opening morning with the contender. I only carried the Krag twice on nice days. The whole rest of the hunt it was snowing and temps in the teens with the wind howling. I figured out early on I can’t take the safety off the Krag with gloves on. I also didn’t want to sit in the snow with it for fear of getting water in it. So I shot the rest of my 3 deer with the AR15. The last one was in a literal blizzard in the slough so the gun was as wet as a frog when I got back. I had no reservation about putting in the case wet and taking it home. 2 days later I took it out of the case and thawed it out and dried it off. It doesn’t care if it’s wet. Still cycled just fine covered in ice.

So the Krag will be my “fair weather gun” from now on, and the AR will take its rightful place alongside my Tikka T3 lite as the real hunting rifles.

Here's why I've come to love the AR-15:

1) it does a lot of things very well, depending on how you setup the rifle. I have one that would be quite capable of hunting big game, one for precision work, one for work, one for home defense, an SBR with a suppressor, and so on.

2) it's the perfect platform for people who like to tinker with and modify their guns at home. It's like reloading, but for rifles. I can rebarrel an AR in a few minutes, I can switch out triggers, handguards, grips, bolts, gas blocks, and so on.

3) the guns last, and they handle being out in the environment better than some of my "showier" guns.

I've always been a blue steel/walnut walking hunter when it comes to rifles. I've messed with several ARs, but always traded them off for a profit. Have one now, an MOA critter, as a possible friend for social occasions. Seems like they'd be good for that purpose.

I have had at least one AR since the early 90s. I bought it because I couldn't get my Mini-14 to shoot better than 4 MOA. Maybe that was good for a Mini back then, but I wanted more accuracy. So I sold the Mini and bought my first AR. Honestly, though, while I think they are excellent at what they do, they really don't float my boat. I have a couple "just because" and they get shot a couple times a year. But I'd much rather spend my time building loads for a bolt action or single shot.

My conundrum is that I don't really care for the AR platform and I have a couple, whereas I really covet a Ruger No.1 RSI and don't own one (yet).

fpgt72 said:

with this "Infidel" garbage written on the side of AR's....well that is just flat dumb and is nothing more they trying to rub someones nose in something.

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Within any hobby there is a subset who will do things for the wrong reasons or in an uncouth fashion.

There are plenty of dirt shooters who are more interested in how their gun looks than in whether or not they can their target.

For the most part those types are the minority but if you have the misfortune to wind up at the range at the same time as them, it can be unpleasant. So long as they aren't hurting anyone I don't mind them too much but it is unfortunate that they don't aspire to be riflemen.

Practical rifle competitions like IPSC rifle, Multigun, PRS Gas Gun, carbine matches, are where the AR platform really shines. Perfectly suitable for hunting although not necessarily more so than a good lever action or bolt action. But if you need to engage a large array of targets at close to medium range, and quickly, an AR-15 is an excellent choice. They can also be a very economical target/plinking rifle for someone who wants something more than a rimfire.

If you have never felt the need to have an AR-15, you probably don't need one.


I find them to be a very versatile and worthwhile platform, within a certain parameter. But I own as many bolt actions as I do semi-autos and I appreciate both.

The one hunting application where I truly think they are better than anything else is calling yotes. With a bolt action you sometimes call in 2 or 3 at once but after the first shot they are all over the hills or in the woods before you can rack a bolt and get back on target. There is some pretty neat videos on YouTube of people culling hogs and yotes at night with thermal scopes but I have no experience with hogs since there are no wild hogs this far north.

Tiresome....AR15, why popular? Surely not because it is a highly reliable light weight semi automatic rifle? Or because it can be used and built as a every day plinker or highly accurate target/match gun? Or its lego like structure that allows the average guy who is slightly mechanically inclined to build, repair and modify it? The fact that it is in a highly popular NATO type .223/5.56 caliber that is easy to load and inexpensive to buy? Surely not because it can be built in numerous calibers from 5.56, .300 Black Out, .450 BM, .458 SOCOM, and a myriad of others? Surely not that most of these calibers can be built as an upper and used on the existing lowers for very low cost? (not .308 anyway). Speaking of cost, they are at a huge discount these days....And surely not there there are more after market parts than Carter has pills?

The only thing I have ever wondered about the AR15 is why everyone doesnt love it! That said, to each his own....given the giant popularity of the format, the lovers are by a large margin the largest segment when compared to haters or not interested folks.



Yes, to each there own. I have other guns, but will likely always have several ARs in various calibers.

Russellc

someguy2800 said:

When I shot my first one I was unimpressed. When I built my first one I was unimpressed. Shooting groups and doing load development I was unimpressed. I was about to sell mine when suddenly I had the "AHAH moment". I started making games for myself shooting steel plates. Like how fast can I knock over these 6 plates from 50 to 300 yards? How fast can I put 5 rounds on a 4" swinger at 200 yards? Once I figured out AR's are for shooting stuff, not paper I suddenly started appreciating it because now it can do what my dozen odd other rifles cannot.

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That same thought occurs to varmint hunters as well...

Russellc