Harsh moments and our reactions.

It's not just alcohol. Sometimes the horseplay and "grabass" that some folks can't seem to resist is as dangerous as the alcohol.

If you have a family member that just can't resist the urge to play "grabass" leave the guns at home.

TRX said:

And last time I looked, the Medical Experts had declared tourniquets doubleplus ungood.

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That policy has changed pretty radically just since 1986 (when Unc' decided I ought do medic training). If you are within "the golden hour" of a decent Trauma Center, the TQ will not do enough damage to argue against it. If you are more than 24 hours from any advanced care, the TQ is ok, as preserved life > preserved limb. The "gray area" is more than 2 and less than 23 hours--which might describe many hunting situations. And, that's precisely where training is wanted.

First of all, my prayers are with you and hoping for a favorable outcome. Everyone should know lifesaving measures, but this simply does not happen unless one or more of Cooper's 4 rules are violated. Sorry if that sounds inappropriate or insensitive, but it is the truth.

CapnMac said:

That policy has changed pretty radically just since 1986 (when Unc' decided I ought do medic training). If you are within "the golden hour" of a decent Trauma Center, the TQ will not do enough damage to argue against it. If you are more than 24 hours from any advanced care, the TQ is ok, as preserved life > preserved limb. The "gray area" is more than 2 and less than 23 hours--which might describe many hunting situations. And, that's precisely where training is wanted.

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To add to that a tourniquet is standard issue for any one on the point of the spear.

Texas10mm said:

To add to that a tourniquet is standard issue for any one on the point of the spear.

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Which is very much related to the ability to get wounded military to high-level trauma care rapidly.

After attending a Stop the Bleed class I admit I was a bit intimidated, have another class in a month.

We have trama kits at church but I don’t have a personal kit yet because I’m not sure how much of this I’m suited for.

hso said:

Everyone should as a minimum have the Stop The Bleed training. Better yet, an advance first aid course. Best of all would be a Wilderness First Aid or Wilderness First Responder.

My wife, daughter and I are all trained and each have kits with tourniquets as well as knowing how to improvise them.

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Agreed. I got this course for free from a local ER nurse.

Odd Job said:

A general first aid course is always a good idea. Statistically, you are more likely to encounter a collapsed individual who needs CPR for non traumatic reasons. In those cases it is also useful to know how to use an Automated Defibrillator (they are becoming more prevalent in public venues).

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Like others have said, we hope and pray your son recovers.

I have to agree with Odd JOB. On the job , our crew took 1st Aid Courses every two years. It was required as many times we were working in remote locations, sometimes hours from the nearest road.

What I have instilled in my head is that doing something was better than doing nothing, hence the training.The worst was chainsaw cuts, though seldom. (Chainsaws don't cut, they rip flesh apart.)
Getting back to saving a life is that acting can be a life saver! It does not matter if one uses CPR training from 3 decades ago or the current practice, both can work!!!

If one can get the training, take it! You never know when it will come in handy.
(Don't ask me how I know)

Horrible situation. Seems you all responded quickly. I too would like to know more about the circumstances, holster, gun, to learn from this terrible event.

We have all discussed at length together how it happened and how we will never repeat the occurrence.

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That what I was looking for but didn’t see.

I keep quick clot/first aid stuff in vehicles so it’s always where I am at, no matter where I am.

Just out of curiosity, what type of pistol was it?

Any details you could share regarding how it happened might help prevent it from happening to one of us.

A tourniquet (and how to use it) and a good blood clotting agent (QuickClot or knockoff) are must haves in any medical or first aid kit.

OP thank you for getting this topic going as I see many that do not have a clue what to do in any emergency. Prayers to your son for a speedy recovery.

First line of defense is always follow the four rules. Then good holsters, no show and tell, or horseplay. An educational thing to do is put a laser in the chamber and unholster the firearm and reholster it a couple times while watching for the red dot. You will be amazed at the number of times you will flag yourself or others nearby I bet. I am trained in trauma response as a firefighter with yearly refreshers. I have the Wilderness First Responder training. I have a first aid/trauma kit at home, in my POV, and in my company truck. Work place injuries and auto accidents have been my time to help so far. Remember to keep your head and delegate specific tasks with followups in an emergency.

First I hope and pray your son has a full and complete recovery. My only question is on Christmas Eve why was everyone "carrying"? If it's in a professional, Leo,military ect situation I get it. Family get together? I don't. Not being judgemental. Just trying to get all the facts.

TRX said:

You can play doctor and whip out the Mercurochrome and bandages, but it's not going to do anything useful as far as keeping the patient alive. Other than duct tape for sucking chest wounds and a tourniquet for squirting blood, the stuff in a first aid kit is basically placebo. And last time I looked, the Medical Experts had declared tourniquets doubleplus ungood. (if you decide to apply a tourniquet, be prepared for at least some bystanders to vehemently object).

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The last time you looked must have been some time in the 90's because there are virtually no Fire or EMS agencies that don't carry or issue tourniquets. The EMT's/Medics at the few agencies that don't use pumped up B/P cuffs or (God help them) cravats and a pen.

Most cops around here carry them on their belts.

At any rate here's a link arguing for the use of bystander tourniquets.

https://www.ems1.com/ems-products/B...lic-use-of-tourniquets-bleeding-control-kits/

The thinking of 'be prepared to lose the limb if you apply a tourniquet' has been proven to be false.

The dangers are mostly if you're in a military setting and it's left on for hours and hours or you're going too thin in your choice of improvised material. In WWI and WWII it wasn't uncommon for them to be left on for days. No wonder they got a bad rap.

http://www.naemt.org/docs/default-s...iquets-and-hemostatic-dressings.pptx?sfvrsn=2

Most of the time in personal first aid kits I'll agree with you that the gear sits unused except for bandaids and ibuprofen. When you need it then it tends to get used in a hurry though. I ended up using a CPR pocket mask that I've had from when I first went to EMT school (that was in 1997) when my wife and I had to do CPR on my mother in law (that was weird). I only had it out on my nightstand because I was reorganizing stuff and was actually about to toss it.

Other stuff occasionally gets used too. 5-6 years ago I splinted a ladies arm after she dinged it on a trap thrower at Garland Public Shooting range (I don't have X-ray eyes but it looked broke to me considering that her hand was at a different angle than her forearm). I had a medical kit in my range bag.

Would she have died? No. Sure made her feel better though. So I wouldn't consider first aid kits placebo

Pure2nd said:

... At the point of discharge stuff hit the fan like some of you know and many of you don't. ...

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Your boy was lucky that you were there and knew what to do. I hope that he makes a full recovery.

IME, in such an emergency, most non-medical-professional people either lose control or freeze up.

IMO, some emergency medical training, even of the lightest kind, can only serve to mitigate that situation.

One of my fears has been finding myself in a situation where I am down, damaged & bleeding, but unable to attend to my own wounds and the only folks that arrive at the scene are of the UH OH! Squad variety ... you know the type: hand-over-mouth, "That poor man!", tears/crying ... but actually DO nothing.

OP,
Thanks for posting this, and I'm glad your son is recovering. He has our prayers for a quick and full recovery. After reading this yesterday I realized that I'm not as prepared as I should be and ordered a Stop the Bleed kit. I've had CPR training but am going to look for more advanced training. I hope everyone who reads this and finds themselves under prepared as I am takes the necessary additional steps.
Tom

I spent some time as a volunteer for the Red Cross (installing smoke alarms in people’s homes). During my time I became aware of the different freee or low cost first aid and cpr training they make available to the general public. I took a few. I learned Improperly administered first aid can be dangerous, and that it is not a huge time investment to learn the basics and it’s actually kind of fun.

Take a look at your local Red Cross and see what they have available. Hospitals sometimes offer classes as well.

Knowing how to treat an injury is important in many activities where danger could exist, and firearms are no exception to this idea. Just as many mountaineers take wilderness first aid courses, I think it would be appropriate for shooters and hunters to obtain some sort of training in treating gunshot wounds. I'm fortunate in that regard that my job has provided such training. I've been through TCCC (Tactical Combat Casualty Care), and I've seen and dealt with real-world gunshot wounds quite a few times. When I'm out hiking or otherwise engaged in outdoor activities, I almost always have a CAT tourniquet in my bag as well. Being able to quickly stop severe bleeding to an extremity can quite literally save a life, and I find that carrying such an item feels particularly important during hunting season.

TRX said:

And last time I looked, the Medical Experts had declared tourniquets doubleplus ungood. (if you decide to apply a tourniquet, be prepared for at least some bystanders to vehemently object)

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You're out of date on your training, and this particular issue has gone full circle. Tourniquets are absolutely recommended for severe bleeding these days (by the top medical personnel in emergency medicine), and they're issued to LE and military personnel for exactly that reason. I don't care if anyone objects (vehemently or otherwise), if I have someone bleeding severely from an extremity, they're getting a tourniquet. Old wives tales about their dangers aren't a valid reason to let someone bleed out.

The point of first aid training for trauma care is that you CAN do something to help for quite a few injuries that are easy to field treat, and would otherwise prove fatal if untreated. Obviously no one (even a trauma surgeon) is going to be able to do everything in the field. And, obviously an ER doctor is better trained than the average CCW'er in the field. But, all of that aside, some wounds can be treated, and some deaths can be prevented. That's what we're trying to solve through training!

Conversely, no amount of medical care will save someone from some other wounds. A person shot through the heart or the brain is probably going to die, even if they're sitting in the best trauma center in the country at the time of the shooting. You do what you can to help the ones you can help, and it's really unfortunate that quite a few people have died from wounds to extremities that could have easily been treated through the application of a tourniquet, followed by an evacuation to a facility that could provide more advanced medical treatment.

Its good to hear that your Son is recovering. Its also good to hear that all of you are talking about this with an open mind with the goal to prevent another future AD. This hits pretty close to home for me. My oldest Son shot his self when he was 2 years old. I'm thankful that I was home and had a little first aid training.

Some food for thought. Most, if not all of us have made some kind of mistake while carrying or handling firearms. Sometimes those mistakes don't cost us, other times they do. When someone creates a post regarding one of those mistakes the rest of us can learn from it, hopefully avoid that situation in the future and we all benefit. Some have come down on the OP, which can make it less likely that someone else will share their experience with us. I don't see the upside of that.

Thanks for sharing and glad your son is alright. Since the details haven't been shared I assume the firearm was a striker fired and either the booger hook was to blame or improper carry and/or holstering was involved.

I work at a level one trauma center so unfortunately see these instances to often. Basic CPR training is a must and a trauma kit with a tourniquet and blood clotting agents are very useful. The more training you have, the better.