Why on earth would you want to????
The ability to use a wider variety of bullets is a drawback for .38 Special... if you say so...
9 vs .38Spec?
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The ability to use a wider variety of bullets is a drawback for .38 Special... if you say so...
hit where you aim and there will be no controversy.
according to the 1986 miami shootout data, neither cartridge is adequate in this scenario. but, magic bullets have changed the minds of fbi bosses and now the 9mm is adequate for this scenario.
and the popcorn is out ... let the games begin!
murf
according to the 1986 miami shootout data, neither cartridge is adequate in this scenario. but, magic bullets have changed the minds of fbi bosses and now the 9mm is adequate for this scenario.
and the popcorn is out ... let the games begin!
murf
I watched parts of the video, the guy has a neat chronograph that calculates kinetic energy. And he compares the kinetic energy of the rounds, with the assumption that KE equals "lethality". I disagree. Simple calculations based on Newtonian laws are not good predictors of lethality (in hand held weapons). Why not compare the gyrations of the stockmarket to "stopping power"? Seems equally valid to me. I have not studied the lethality of wrecking balls, planetoids, mountain faces, volcano eruptions, or large caliber ordnance. I am certain get hit with one of these projectiles, there will not be much of a hole left, after it fragments your body
Unless you happen to be a comic book character with unlimited strength, no one I know carries a 8440 pound pocket pistol.
But with the weapons we shoot, that we can control in our hands, these things make a hole. I am of the opinion that the device that makes the largest through hole is the most lethal. If velocity adds to bullet expansion, then that is a good thing, as long as you get a through hole.
I am really impressed with the crush wound created by the early blackpowder cartridge shown in this video. The long, wide, soft bullet upsets and damages a lot of the ballistic gellatin in the block.
Ballistic gelatine tests of the M 1867/77 Werndl rifle
One of the bullets tumbles in this test, and that adds to the crush space.
Lorenz bullet vs .58 Minié test in ballistic gelatine
All of this is based on the assumption that damage to the ballistic gelatin is a measure of lethality. I will say, I consider ballistic gelatin a better measure of lethality than paper calculations of momentum or kinetic energy. If anyone wants to shoot 9mm, 38 Special, or 357 rounds in ballistic gellatin, compare the penetration and crush space caused by the bullets, then we would have a much better idea of the lethality of the rounds.
If someone doesn't except FBI gel testing as a valid predictor of field performance then any further conversation with them is moot.
In gel tests, the best of the best 9mm ammo penetrates 14 to 16 inches and expands to around .66", and there are quite a few rounds that perform like that. IMO, the best of the best 38 Special ammo is +P and those rounds usually penetrate to around 14 inches in bare gel and expand to around .63" So I'd say, as a family, 9mm seems to have a greater selection of rounds that exhibit better terminal ballistics.
One standout round in 38 Special, IMO, is the Federal 130 gr HST Micro. Out of a 4" barrel it penetrates to around 14" and on average expands to around .70" I think that's pretty decent.
If you' favor deep penetrating bullets, there are quite a few 38 Special bullets that will penetrate deeply, but they don't expand much. An example of this would be the Federal 129 gr Hydra-Shok +P. The Federal 129 gr Hydra-Shok +P, only expands to.35" but it penetrates to around 18"
In gel tests, the best of the best 9mm ammo penetrates 14 to 16 inches and expands to around .66", and there are quite a few rounds that perform like that. IMO, the best of the best 38 Special ammo is +P and those rounds usually penetrate to around 14 inches in bare gel and expand to around .63" So I'd say, as a family, 9mm seems to have a greater selection of rounds that exhibit better terminal ballistics.
One standout round in 38 Special, IMO, is the Federal 130 gr HST Micro. Out of a 4" barrel it penetrates to around 14" and on average expands to around .70" I think that's pretty decent.
If you' favor deep penetrating bullets, there are quite a few 38 Special bullets that will penetrate deeply, but they don't expand much. An example of this would be the Federal 129 gr Hydra-Shok +P. The Federal 129 gr Hydra-Shok +P, only expands to.35" but it penetrates to around 18"
Something else I was thinking about.
I know people want the "FBI" or "Chicago" load - 158 gr LSWCHP +P but they don't all seem to be created equal.
The Federal 158 gr LSWCHP +P seems to consistently surpass the 18" of optimum penetration outlined by the FBI, penetrating to around 23" in bare gel out of a 4" barrel. And that isn't caused by one outlier that skews the average - those bullets consistently penetrate over 18".
The Winchester 158 gr Super-X LSWCHP +P penetrates to around 15" and epands to around .50"
So there seems to be some variation between brands of 158 gr LSWCHP +P cartridges.
I know people want the "FBI" or "Chicago" load - 158 gr LSWCHP +P but they don't all seem to be created equal.
The Federal 158 gr LSWCHP +P seems to consistently surpass the 18" of optimum penetration outlined by the FBI, penetrating to around 23" in bare gel out of a 4" barrel. And that isn't caused by one outlier that skews the average - those bullets consistently penetrate over 18".
The Winchester 158 gr Super-X LSWCHP +P penetrates to around 15" and epands to around .50"
So there seems to be some variation between brands of 158 gr LSWCHP +P cartridges.
Depending on how long ago we're talking: EMT responses are also better than they used to be. Additionally, nearly 70% of Americans are now overweight or obese, which would ostensibly give some amount of protection against effective hits.
This is something I often see when people compare 9mm to .38Sp. Right away, they want to compare 9mm to .38Sp. +P. Comparing standard pressure to standard pressure and +P to +P shows that the 9mm is a little bit hotter. I see no reason to compare standard pressure in one caliber to +P in another unless the goal is to shade the comparison.
buck460XVR
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IMHO......
With modern ammo, the difference in performance, plus or minus by either caliber, is so insignificant, it is not worth the bandwidth to argue about it.
With modern ammo, the difference in performance, plus or minus by either caliber, is so insignificant, it is not worth the bandwidth to argue about it.
@buck460XVR I think part of the discussion should be that bullet performance has changed over the past 10 to 20 years, especially in the 9mm markets. There's been huge gains in the "metrics" that people use to gauge effective performance, so that at least on paper 9mm especially has seen impressive development overall, and specifically in the pocketable carry market. I don't think .38spl or .357 magnum has seen the same efforts applied. And while it is totally subjective, I can agree with Tim @ MAC that shooting a S&W snubbie (442 in my case, shooting .38spl +P) is an exercise in pain management with any kind of defensive load, as compared to many smaller 9mm guns. That's not to say I don't carry my 442 as, much like Tim, I came to the same conclusions about it's ability to stuff into a pocket when for example taking a walk to the mail box, long before I ever saw the video in question. (again, subjectively in my experience) the recoil impulse on 125gr .38spl (Freedom Munitions FM38X125R, specifically) out a of a 442 is MUCH harsher than 124gr 9mm +P (P9HST3, specifically) out of my P2000SK (smallest 9mm I have.)
Not to mention, even 38 Special +P loses a good bit of performance when shot out of a snubbie. Luckygunner labs, which at least uses a consistent gel testing protocol, tests 38 Special with 2" and 4" barreled revolvers. If you look at their results, for some of these loads with the shorter barrel there was often incomplete expansion, or a complete failure to expand. And the heavy Winchester 158 grain +P LSWCHP seemed to fare especially poorly. With the 4" barrel this load managed 15.3" of penetration, and expanded to an average diameter of .51", as was mentioned above. But with the 2" barrel the penetration was 18.0" because there was a complete failure to expand.
Luckgunner has not tested the Federal 158 grain LSWCHP +P with a 4" barrel. But with a 2" barrel this load penetrated to a median depth of 18.6", again with a complete failure to expand.
The muzzle velocity with a 4" barrel for the Winchester 158 grain +P load was 839 fps, but only 750 fps with the 2" barrel. The Federal 158 grain +P load managed a muzzle velocity of 795 fps with the 2" barrel. If we use the higher muzzle velocity from the 4" barrel revolver, the muzzle energy for the Winchester load is 247 ft-lbs and the projectile momentum is18.9 lb-ft per sec. Obviously, for the 2" barrel, both would be considerably less.
Now consider the Federal HST 150 grain 9mm Luger JHP which is a standard pressure load, not +P. This is about as close as we can get to a projectile mass of 158 grain in a 9x19mm JHP cartridge. Luckgunner tested it using the same gel protocol using a Smith and Wesson M&P 9c pistol with a 3.5" barrel. But since the case length of the 9x19mm cartridge is just over 3/4", a 3.5" pistol barrel is more equivalent to a 2.75" revolver barrel. Using that barrel, the 150 grain Federal HST penetrated to a median depth of 16", better than the Winchester 158 grain LSWCHP +P load, and had an average expanded diameter of .681", dramatically better than the .51" of the Winchester 38 Special +P.
The median muzzle velocity for the 9mm 150 grain Federal HST JHP was 893 fps, which gives a muzzle energy of 265 ft-lbs and a momentum of 19.1 lb-ft per sec, both a bit better than the Winchester 158 grain 38 Special +P load.
So here, using the same gel testing protocol, we have a standard pressure 150 grain JHP 9mm Luger cartridge that, when shot from a 2.75" barrel has better velocity, better kinetic energy, better momentum, better penetration, and much better expanded diameter than a 158 grain LSWCHP 38 Special +P load shot from a 4" barrel. Seems like no contest to me.
Luckgunner has not tested the Federal 158 grain LSWCHP +P with a 4" barrel. But with a 2" barrel this load penetrated to a median depth of 18.6", again with a complete failure to expand.
The muzzle velocity with a 4" barrel for the Winchester 158 grain +P load was 839 fps, but only 750 fps with the 2" barrel. The Federal 158 grain +P load managed a muzzle velocity of 795 fps with the 2" barrel. If we use the higher muzzle velocity from the 4" barrel revolver, the muzzle energy for the Winchester load is 247 ft-lbs and the projectile momentum is18.9 lb-ft per sec. Obviously, for the 2" barrel, both would be considerably less.
Now consider the Federal HST 150 grain 9mm Luger JHP which is a standard pressure load, not +P. This is about as close as we can get to a projectile mass of 158 grain in a 9x19mm JHP cartridge. Luckgunner tested it using the same gel protocol using a Smith and Wesson M&P 9c pistol with a 3.5" barrel. But since the case length of the 9x19mm cartridge is just over 3/4", a 3.5" pistol barrel is more equivalent to a 2.75" revolver barrel. Using that barrel, the 150 grain Federal HST penetrated to a median depth of 16", better than the Winchester 158 grain LSWCHP +P load, and had an average expanded diameter of .681", dramatically better than the .51" of the Winchester 38 Special +P.
The median muzzle velocity for the 9mm 150 grain Federal HST JHP was 893 fps, which gives a muzzle energy of 265 ft-lbs and a momentum of 19.1 lb-ft per sec, both a bit better than the Winchester 158 grain 38 Special +P load.
So here, using the same gel testing protocol, we have a standard pressure 150 grain JHP 9mm Luger cartridge that, when shot from a 2.75" barrel has better velocity, better kinetic energy, better momentum, better penetration, and much better expanded diameter than a 158 grain LSWCHP 38 Special +P load shot from a 4" barrel. Seems like no contest to me.
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JONWILL
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Came here to post about the Federal 38 Special 130 HST. It is what I carry. It will get the job done as well as anything. I like the way it expands and cuts up flesh on the way through.
Will have the perp bleed out faster.
Riomouse911
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Just checking: Expands to .35" (ie: Doesn't expand at all) or expands to .53" (Some expansion)?
bikerdoc
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Shot placement.
Eddietruett
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Bottom Line. There is no best SD Load for every situation. If I'm facing a 125lb person with a T Shirt, I'd want a real soft lead HP pushed about 1000fps. Penetration wouldn't really matter. If I were facing a 300lb person wearing a hoodie and an overcoat I might prefer a FMJ to get through the clothing and fat. Are you shooting in the open, or through glass, or maybe wood or a metal door? These all would require a different load for perfect performance. I would probably carry a different load living in Florida than I would living in Wisconsin. I've read articles from Cops who have been in several shootouts that swear by a lead wadcutter and others who would have anything but a JHP and everything in between. My take is this. Carry what you shoot the best. I shoot revolvers much better than autos, so my carry gun is a revolver. Practice and Practice some more. A hit in the right place with the wrong bullet is much better than a miss with the correct load! Not sure about now but a few years ago, more people were killed in the US by .22LR than any other caliber. The only guaranteed advantage with a 9mm over a .38 would be bullet capacity
FL-NC
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1- shot placement is always king 2- no 2 shootings are the same- even with animals like deer. 3- if the 9mm is so inferior, why is it the most common caliber world-wide, to include among some of the most highly trained units/agencies?
JONWILL
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I doubt many people think the 9mm is inferior. It has killed millions of humans for over 100 years. The 38 Special has gotten the job done but nowhere near the same numbers.The 38 comes in a smaller package (S&W J frame sized
guns), I know there are 9mm's in J frame sized guns also but they are a pain to reload. The J frame is easy to carry and shoot. My wife who didn't know anything about guns or even held one was able to pick it up and shoot one.
FL-NC
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That's because the 9mm is NOT inferior. "J frame size guns"? Take one and compare weight, thickness, recoil, and mag capacity to something like a Ruger LC9 or S&W shield 9, not to mention ammo cost and selection for target and SD rounds.
rpenmanparker
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The .38 has plenty of room in the casing for more powder and more bullet, IOW more mass and more velocity are possible, and yet it hardly ever registers muzzle energy as high as 9 mm projectiles. Why? Because not every gun used to shoot .38s can handle the pressure. So the cartridge is forever handicapped. It is always light loaded to an inferior pressure spec. If you want to shoot .38s that compare to 9 mm, the best bet is to buy .357 Mag guns and download the .357 cartridges to whatever lower energy you are happy with. Off the shelf .38s are just not gonna do it.
Flatbush Harry
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At the risk of stating the obvious, the bullets used in the .38 S&W Spl. and the .357 Magnum are the same diameter, namely, .357". The 9mm bullet is .355" in diameter.
I carry both depending on clothing choices. They are equal in my mind. BTW, I use Federal HSTs in both calibers.
rpenmanparker
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Did you know that .357 Mag cartridges were originally developed using the .38 Special case. So the .38 Special could be as powerful as the .357 Mag except for the safety issues due to overpressuring guns that aren’t made to shoot that powerful a cartridge. That's why the larger Mag case had to be adopted for the cartridge, to make sure no one shot .357 Mags in a underbuilt .38 Special gun. You can talk about bullets all you want, but commercially-loaded .38s will never match 9 mm, because the two guns don’t have the same pressure rating.
TN Outlaw
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PERFORMANCE-Very similar, close enough to probably not make a difference in real world conditions. Depends on how you compare. 115gr vs 158gr? 124gr vs 130gr? 150gr vs 158gr? +P vs standard? It does seem you have to handicap the spl in order to get an apples to apples comparison as it shines with bullet weights higher than what the 9x19 is made for. In most testing I've seen the 9x19 does outperform the spl slightly, but that's ballistic gel and I'm not sure how both rounds would react in actual body tissue and human bones.
What the choice really comes down to is everything other than performance considering how close these 2 are to one another in that regard. Wether or not you want any autoloader or a revolver, ammo cost and availability, etc. That's what I would base my decision on between these 2 very close performers.
What the choice really comes down to is everything other than performance considering how close these 2 are to one another in that regard. Wether or not you want any autoloader or a revolver, ammo cost and availability, etc. That's what I would base my decision on between these 2 very close performers.
Great ballistics and gun info but the question still arises that the old38 Special is the underdog in power BUT it does work pretty well stopping aggression.
The big however is Drug numbing of the bad guys and nothing short of a .45ACP will reliably stop em!!!
Far as the number of 9's the cops pump into em,they still keep coming!
Well, I'm stuck with a Model 10 and 36 so 158 gr solids or maybe the new SD light,fast bullets will have to work... retired and on a fixed income that's just my lot.
Maybe I'll be home and within reach of my Shotgun!
Thanks for trying to answer this post guys
Dave
The big however is Drug numbing of the bad guys and nothing short of a .45ACP will reliably stop em!!!
Far as the number of 9's the cops pump into em,they still keep coming!
Well, I'm stuck with a Model 10 and 36 so 158 gr solids or maybe the new SD light,fast bullets will have to work... retired and on a fixed income that's just my lot.
Maybe I'll be home and within reach of my Shotgun!
Thanks for trying to answer this post guys
Dave
Sorry, the The Federal 129 gr Hydra-Shok +P test I was referencing was from a 4" barrel through 4 layers of denim, and the bullets clogged, did not expand but 3 of the 5 bullets stayed below 18", 2 bullets went a little past 18"
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