Is jhp overkill in 45 acp?

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Just an FYI, if you ever get sued and it goes to trial, it is going to cost you between $100,000 and $200,000 even if you win, in legal fees, depending on how much expert witness testimony is needed.

The bottom line is that you don't reall win even when you win, you just lose less.
 
Ball has worked pretty well for a very long time and you need to train with the ammo you carry. There are some good reasons for that. I shoot about 100-200 rounds of 45 APC a month. Burning 100 rounds of SD ammo every month could get really expensive. Good SD ammo runs about 0.50/rd so that means I would be spending at least $600 on SD ammo every year.

You might be able to afford that but I can't.

Reality check. Ball has never worked worth a tinker's damn anywhere,
 
Just an FYI, if you ever get sued and it goes to trial, it is going to cost you between $100,000 and $200,000 even if you win, in legal fees, depending on how much expert witness testimony is needed.

The bottom line is that you don't reall win even when you win, you just lose less.
Okay, no argument. But nothing you said bears on choosing the right ammunition to protect your life. I’d doesn’t seem right, but there are likely to be penalties to you for defending yourself. Defending yourself less well is not a viable solution.
 
Reality check. Ball has never worked worth a tinker's damn anywhere,
I disagree. Ball has worked for a long time. Are hollow points better? Probably, but to say "ball has never worked", makes no sense.

Firearms have been killing folks for hundreds of years. Hollow point ammo is a development within the past 50 - 60 years. Even with the development of more and more sophisticated hollow point ammo, ball ammo still kill lots of folks every year.
 
I disagree. Ball has worked for a long time. Are hollow points better? Probably, but to say "ball has never worked", makes no sense.

Firearms have been killing folks for hundreds of years. Hollow point ammo is a development within the past 50 - 60 years. Even with the development of more and more sophisticated hollow point ammo, ball ammo still kill lots of folks every year.
But is it reliable? Can you depend on it? How many people does it injure but not stop. You are focusing on the wrong statistic.
 
But is it reliable? Can you depend on it? How many people does it injure but not stop. You are focusing on the wrong statistic.
Dependable to do what? Stop?

People make choices largely based on pain. You don't need a central nervous system stop to stop most humans like you may need to stop a large dangerous animal. Put a hole in somebody, and that's going to hurt a whole bunch. People are thinking creatures and are likely to quit when the pain gets high while wild animals use much less logic in their reactions to pain. Will a less effective round like ball hurt any less than a high-tech hollow point? Probably not.

Regarding central nervous system stops that many hunters have to rely on to stop large dangerous game to keep from being stomped or chomped, what kind of bullet are they using? Check with the handgun hunters in the revolver section and find out what round they're using to to shoot game, with a gun that is marginal for the task at hand (note - nearly every defensive trainer will tell you handguns are lousy man-stoppers - we've even had this comment in this thread). It's probably not a hollow point, and they work just fine.

I'm not advocating anybody use any round or bullet type, use whatever you want, just that poking a big enough hole in a human, and generally making that hole deep enough to hit something important, are what folks should focus on rather than stuff like over-penetration of handgun rounds in self defense situations, or that since a particular gun or round is not current high-tech it doesn't mean that it is ineffective, especially one that has as long of a track record as the .45 ACP.
 
Dependable to do what? Stop?

People make choices largely based on pain. You don't need a central nervous system stop to stop most humans like you may need to stop a large dangerous animal. Put a hole in somebody, and that's going to hurt a whole bunch. People are thinking creatures and are likely to quit when the pain gets high while wild animals use much less logic in their reactions to pain. Will a less effective round like ball hurt any less than a high-tech hollow point? Probably not.

Regarding central nervous system stops that many hunters have to rely on to stop large dangerous game to keep from being stomped or chomped, what kind of bullet are they using? Check with the handgun hunters in the revolver section and find out what round they're using to to shoot game, with a gun that is marginal for the task at hand (note - nearly every defensive trainer will tell you handguns are lousy man-stoppers - we've even had this comment in this thread). It's probably not a hollow point, and they work just fine.

I'm not advocating anybody use any round or bullet type, use whatever you want, just that poking a big enough hole in a human, and generally making that hole deep enough to hit something important, are what folks should focus on rather than stuff like over-penetration of handgun rounds in self defense situations, or that since a particular gun or round is not current high-tech it doesn't mean that it is ineffective, especially one that has as long of a track record as the .45 ACP.
Why? Why should I settle for half good when I can have the best known solution. JHP. Perfect? No. Best we know of? Yes. Unmatched stopping potential and safety for bystanders all rolled into one. Nostalgia is no basis for choosing self defense rounds.
 
Why? Why should I settle for halfgood she ai can have the best? Unmatched stopping potential and safety for bystanders all rolled into one. Nostalgia is no basis for choosing self defense rounds.
You should. I assume you don't ever carry a .380, or .38 Special, or 9mm, but limit your carry options to .41 and .44 Magnums, right.;)

Some tongue in cheek humor. Nearly all of us choose "half-good" stuff. Hey, there are folks all over this forum carrying a pocket .380 or a J-Frame with .38 Specials. Lets say they are using nothing but the most sophisticated and high-tech hollow points in those guns. I'll maintain a guy with who's chosen to carry a Government size 1911, with virtually any ammo other than .45 shot shells, is better off. The 1911 will be easier to shoot, can be shot more accurately, and is easier to reload, and just about any .45 ACP round out of a 5" 1911 will out perform anything coming out of a pocket .380 or .38 Special J-Frame.

Is .45 ACP ball less effective than the best .45 ACP hollow point? Probably. Will it out perform lots of less capable rounds out of less capable firearms, that lots of folks choose to cary for very valid reasons, sure.
 
If you're going to use NYPD shooting innocent bystanders you probably should read this incident.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-shooting-hit-by-police-idUSBRE87Q04X20120827





So much for those hollow point SD loads . Those cops would have looked pretty stupid had Johnson been wearing armor. You can buy those plate carriers pretty cheap you know. https://www.opticsplanet.com/bulletproof-vests.html

Anyway, I don't live in Iraq or Ohio and you can carry and train with whatever you want. I'll stick with ball and pay attention to who's in the line of fire. I'll also avoid shooting snakes out of trees.
What's more likely to kill somebody, a piece of jacket material that's exited the body or an intact bullet.

I've been hit by jacket material on an improperly maintained public range. I still have my hand and my life and the extent of my medical care was washing my hand and applying a bandaid.
 
You want to know if ball over-penetrates... unless it comes out of a cop's gun.

Explain how that matters.
Because LE respond to trouble, often in crowed areas. The (non-criminal) citizen use of a firearm in crowed areas is nearly non-existent.
 
Reality check. Ball has never worked worth a tinker's damn anywhere,

Well there were a half a million (very conservative estimate) N. Koreans and Chinese killed with ball during the Korean war. I don't want to look up the number of Japanese and Germans who fell to ball ammo because it would be just belaboring the point.

"Never worked worth a tinker's damn" seems to be a pretty outrageous and unsupported statement.
 
What's more likely to kill somebody, a piece of jacket material that's exited the body or an intact bullet.

I've been hit by jacket material on an improperly maintained public range. I still have my hand and my life and the extent of my medical care was washing my hand and applying a bandaid.

Well I certainly hope that the shrapnel that hit you didn't exit someone's body first.:(

As you suggest ball and FMJ stays intact. I pick thru the bullet trap at the range and examine a lot of bullets that hit a steel backstop. I wouldn't shoot there if I knew someone was using SD hollow point ammo. I would vacate the premises. That stuff is like a miniature hand grenade.

It's quite likely you would not have been hit with anything if the round had been ball or FMJ. Most everyone at my range (500 members) uses FMJ, ball or low MV lead. In all the years I've been shooting there no one has been hit by shrapnel. Sounds like Iraq to me.

I fear you have fallen for a lot of marketing hype.
 
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