Experimental (?)/design pattern rifle: what is it?

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PRD1

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A fellow member of the Historical Arms Society of Tucson (AZ) - HAST - passed this on to me with a request to help in identifying it (if possible). The tag which is attached says it is a Colt-Franklin experimental model: it certainly is a toolroom model in incomplete condition, but certainly is NOT a Colt-Franklin. That rifle is a bolt action type with a 'gravity-feed' magazine extending upward from the right side of the receiver. This specimen is a slide-action type and obviously intended to use a single-stack detachable box magazine. It is unlike any other rifle I/we have been able to identify.
It has features which make me think it is likely European in origin (perhaps 'liberated' from some museum or factory): It has a 32 3/8" barrel of true 8mm bore (.315" bore and .327" grooves) - 4 lands and grooves of about equal width and of pitch suitable for smokeless powder velocities. The barrel is obviously purpose-made for this experiment, since the breech incorporates integral rails/grooves intended to support and guide the operating slide rods. Also most of the dimensions of cuts and features are apparently metric, rather than inch-based. The only (apparently) contemporary detachable single-stack magazine I'm familiar with is the Lee, and the trigger guard and latch of this specimen are very much like the Lee, though the interior of the stock has not been opened sufficiently to permit insertion of a magazine, and the clearance slot in the bottom of the receiver is only 8mm wide; too narrow to permit passage of any known rifle cartridge of the dimensions appropriate to this action. The chamber is incomplete, having been drilled straight to a depth of about 1 1/4", and at about 11mm - 7/16" diameter.
There are numerous very evident file marks on the metal parts (see the photo of the tang behind the hammer), and the wood shows scraping and file work, as well. The stock is made of 2 flat planks joined longitudinally, and the seam is clearly evident for the full length of the stock. The buttplate is an unremarkable steel military type.
An unusual feature is the 'knob' sticking up behind the hammer. The hammer has a half-cock notch, and, when fully cocked, will not release until a small lever in the bottom of the receiver is depressed - evidently a safety feature.
The cutouts in the stock below the receiver, taken with the round bosses on the slide arms make it likely that the bolt tipped up to unlock and down to lock, with cam slots in dependent 'ears' on the bolt mating with the slide bosses, and the seats on the top of the receiver are reminiscent of the locking mechanism of the 1890 Winchester.
The purpose of the slot and cross pin hole in the receiver ring is not clearly evident, but is perhaps for a rear sight, not otherwise provided for on the model as is now exists.
All metal parts except the slide handle were originally in the white, and have acquired a patina except for that portion of the barrel breech which is normally covered by the operating slide 'handle'. The stock is also lighter colored where it was protected by the slide.
The 'handle' of the slide is smooth sheet steel, with a welded seam on the bottom, and is not likely intended as the final form, should the design prove workable - it would be too slick and cold for field use, I think.
There are no markings on any part of the rifle, except the white ink 'GLL' on the top of the butt. The tag could have been attached at any time, and may originate from a seller: the information is suspect. The 'GLL' marking could also have originated from a collection, a museum, or a seller.
I am attaching a number of photos, and apologize for their quality, but I think they convey as much information as possible about the rifle, and hope they prove useful.
Any input appreciated!

PRD1 - mhb - MIke DSC00796.JPG DSC00798.JPG DSC00799.JPG DSC00800.JPG DSC00801.JPG DSC00804.JPG DSC00805.JPG DSC00806.JPG DSC00807.JPG DSC00808.JPG
 
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I'm surprised to have received no input at all, so far. I know this is an unusual specimen, possibly unique, but I felt certain some one or more of the participants in THR forums would have had something to contribute. Failing that, can anyone point me to another likely place to ask for assistance, or, perhaps, ask some expert known to you to look-in here?

PRD1 - mhb - MIke
 
I don't know how to efficiently search patents, but that may be one way to close in on an identification. There was a lot of firearms evolution, refinement, experimentation in the late 1800's. Very few mechanisms were actually successful. Identifying a failed mechanism is not going to be easy, most everyone out there is going by the same reference works.

If it was not for the documentation, would anyone be able to identify the Colt models that were precursors to the 1911? John Browning and Colt made a number of modifications on pistols that went through Army tests, but they were onesie's and twosie's.
 
Thanks for the input, guys. I am not at all sure that there is any patent information to be found on this item. I agree that the information on the tag is 100% wrong, and that Colt never had anything to do with it.
The search goes on...


PRD1 - mhb - MIke
 
Yelling loudly- IAN WHERE ARE YOU!

patents, if there are any, can be looked up easily online.

You say it's an 8mm bore, and box mag fed. Have you measured the slot for the magazine to see how big of casing could actually fit? Casting the chamber could help identify where it was made.

To me, I see a lot of lever action tidbits there, especially the dust cover. From inside, the mag well looks more like a lever slot. The semi-oval cutouts on the sides of the stock are interesting too. Perhaps some sort of tilting block bolt maybe?

I assume the colt tag had something to do with the slide action and colt's lightning repeater.
 
BB94:

It's definitely for a box magazine, and has a latch very much like the Remington- Lee, which can be seen in the photo of the trigger guard and magazine opening. The magazine opening is about the same size as in the R-L rifles for the .30-40 Krag (I actually have an 1899 R-L, but have not compared the magazine with the opening in the trigger guard - it is very close in size, though). The length of the slot in the bottom of the receiver through which cartridges would have had to pass is about the same as the length of the magazine opening in the guard, but is only 8mm wide, which is too narrow to pass a cartridge suited to the apparent size of the intended magazine,- I noted that it is apparently uncompleted. There is no completed chamber, as such (see original comments), so casting the rear of the barrel would probably not be helpful.
There is no point of attachment for a lever, or any indication one was intended to be fitted. There is, however, a slide handle which moves fore-and-aft, with an attached slide bar on each side, each of which has a stud pretty obviously intended to mate with cam slots in what I believe to have been 'ears' below the body of the bolt. It does not have a dust cover of any sort. These characteristics are also visible in the photos.
I assume the information on the tag is a complete WAG on the part of some dealer, and that Colt never had anything to do with the rifle, which has no feature similar to any of Colt's known slide actions, with the possible exception of an exposed hammer.

PRD1 - mhb - MIke
 
Apparently I skipped a couple paragraphs in the the first post. One view made it look like a slid back dust cover, but yeah quite obviously not. The lightning reference was just trying to justify the tag's misinformation.

So the bore is 32/8mm and the chamber is 32mm x 11mm. I would search for a cartridge with slightly larger body dimensions. Might give a couple clues as to who designed it. Or where.

And that little safety trigger button sure seems like a unique mechanism.

Have you considered that it was meant for a fixed box mag, or a hinged one like an sks (even though theres no hinge)

I would guess the knob behind the hammer was a hand stop of sorts, so the slide-cocked hammer doesn't bite the web of your hand. Yet that seems like something that wouldn't have been added that early in development.
 
Apparently I skipped a couple paragraphs in the the first post. One view made it look like a slid back dust cover, but yeah quite obviously not. The lightning reference was just trying to justify the tag's misinformation.

So the bore is 32/8mm and the chamber is 32mm x 11mm. I would search for a cartridge with slightly larger body dimensions. Might give a couple clues as to who designed it. Or where.

And that little safety trigger button sure seems like a unique mechanism.

Have you considered that it was meant for a fixed box mag, or a hinged one like an sks (even though theres no hinge)

I would guess the knob behind the hammer was a hand stop of sorts, so the slide-cocked hammer doesn't bite the web of your hand. Yet that seems like something that wouldn't have been added that early in development.

I don't think the current short partial boring of the 'chamber' can be of much help - during the apparent era in which this rifle likely originated, many European nations and at least a couple of Asian ones were using or in the process of adopting some form of 8mm military rifle and cartridge, and all those of that vintage that I know of have head and body diameter and length larger than the current opening of the chamber area. Then, too, the designer of this arm may have had his own design in mind for the cartridge.
Most military/repeating rifles have some form of disconnector or interruptor to prevent firing before the breech is fully closed and locked - this approach seems appropriate for a slide-action design with a tipping bolt.
I consider that the rifle was intended for use with a single-stack detachable box magazine because of the shape and dimensions of the opening in the trigger guard and the fact that there is a very obvious magazine latch in the trigger guard which almost exactly resembles that of the Remington-Lee in location and design/function.
You are probably correct about the 'knob': it is not unlikely that the bolt in its rearward travel might injure the user's hand, or the hammer pinch it, if he gripped the stock too far forward.
It surely is a puzzlement.

PRD1 - mhb - MIke
 
I just know my 1897 Winchester will bite ya if your hand is too far forward lol.

My confusion continues Haha. Is the lever inside the trigger guard for the magazine release or the lever you mention for releasing the hammer? Now I'm thinking it's the former, where as the latter would be depressed by the bolt itself?
 
I just know my 1897 Winchester will bite ya if your hand is too far forward lol.

My confusion continues Haha. Is the lever inside the trigger guard for the magazine release or the lever you mention for releasing the hammer? Now I'm thinking it's the former, where as the latter would be depressed by the bolt itself?

Roger on the '97. Part of the confusion may be my fault - when you referred to the safety feature, I thought you meant the one I mentioned as being located in the receiver itself, in the boltway, where it would likely have been depressed by the bolt when fully forward and locked: it can be seen in the 4th photo, between the hammer and the magazine slot. The lever inside the trigger guard is the magazine release/catch.

PRD1 - mhb - MIke
 
Well, at least you're thinking about it.
Personally, I can't see any resemblance between the slide-action prototype shown in the photos and either of the known Mondragon designs: the M1893, which is a straight-pull bolt action with a fixed box magazine which used 8 round en-bloc clips, or the M1908 semi-auto, which was gas operated with a rotating bolt and detachable box magazine. And, while Mondragon did design a couple of cartridges for his rifles, neither was in 8mm. In fact, the only 8mm round used by Mexico (AFAIK), is the 8mm Nagant in the Pieper revolving carbine, and that is not a full-sized military rifle cartridge.
But keep thinking about it...

PRD1 - mhb - MIke
 
The shape of the stock right around the trigger guard and grip area is very odd, and the shape to me resembles the mondragon. And the horizontal "rails" on the reciever sides. But the mag is not located in the same spot and the action is totally different. The mondragon more like a mauser whereas yours has that open top.

My historical rifle knowledge is minute, but I enjoy some "critical thinking"
 
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New one to me too.

Looks kinda like the S. Norris and W. & P. Mauser patent of June 2, 1868, (WHB Smith, Small Arms of the World, Other Early European Bolt Actions, Stackpole, 1966, p.76.) except the Norris-Mauser patent rifle had a hammer like extension of the bolt as a cocking piece, and that one in the photos appears to be conventional hammer-fired.

Could be a one of a kind research and development type.
 
I rather think it probably is a unique development model which was never finished for some reason. It does have a conventional hammer.

PRD1 - mhb - MIke
 
It obviously was an expermental pump action design, c. 1890-1915. The tag (last pic, first series) appears to say 'experimental Anschutz patent' (or pattern). I still think it is some sort of prototype Mondragon.
 
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