My advice to people just getting into carry

In years past, I took a piece of aluminum that I got at a hobby shop, and cut a piece in the outline of the right grip of my M1911. I left a strip about a half inch wide and six or seven inches long attached. I doubled it, leaving a smooth end where it was bent, and put the rest of the piece under the grip and screwed it down. I could slide the gun into my pants, or between my pants and belt and that strip held it firmly. It was very easy to carry, easy to put on and take off, and damn' near invisible.

I have to say I agree with the OP regarding the size of the carry gun for someone just starting out carrying.

Other posters are spot on regarding the ability to conceal a larger or full size firearm and nobody will notice, but there are a couple of things that starting CCWers don't either know or have.

1) In spite of the fact that 99% of people aren't that observant, the beginning CCWer is very attune to the fact that they are now carrying a firearm. This hyper-awareness leads to the feeling that everybody is going to notice them and start screaming "HE'S GOT A GUUUUUUUUUN!"
Until you get more comfortable with daily carry if being more discrete helps the CCWer, then it is a good solution.

2) In spite of the fact that you can easily carry a full size gun, the reality of the situation is that when we started carrying it is unlikely that our wardrobe was tailored around it. I am primarily referring to buying your pants with a waist size to accommodate the pistol and holster in your waistband. For me, I went from buying pants that "fit" to ones with a 1-2" larger waist. This made IWB carry much more comfortable overall. Unfortunately that didn't occur overnight. I couldn't afford to ditch all of my jeans, dockers, and dress pants and buy new. It took some time and during that transition period I didn't always carry because my at the time way too large CCW didn't fit in my pants with me in them as well.

To refine the OP's thoughts on buying a mouse gun first. I would say that if you are going to start carrying then you should go out and buy 2 guns. Get the mouse gun that you can carry everywhere. $169 or so for an LCP that will work with anything you wear is not that big of a cost. Also invest in a gun that will be fun to shoot at the range. Either a full or mid size gun that is not quite so snappy and unpleasant to shoot. With those two guns, you will be encouraged to practice more often, familiarize yourself with the operation, get comfortable with them, and still have something that you can carry pretty much any time.

You know, I never had to buy larger pants when I started carrying.

I always had to wear a waist size that required a belt due to my more muscular thighs making snug waisted jeans way too tight in the crotchal region and pockets way too small.

If I wasnt carrying a gun, I'd be wearing the same pants. But it is a good point for most new CCWers.

I have always tucked my shirts in because that’s how I have always wear shirts. But then if I would leave my shirt out my wife would say That doesn’t look good with your shirt out. Because she is an old school Home Ec teacher
And the people who know me would always ask me “Are You carrying today Phil “? .

Honestly, it's even easier for me to carry a big gun with a tucked in shirt and tuckable holster. I do it every Sunday at church and have surprised my wife a number of times because she didnt think I was carrying that day until I was changing after church.

The other thing I found was a godsend to me was when I stopped trying to carry at 4 or 5 oclock like everyone else does. I can barely carry a lcp in that spot and its uncomfortable. Once I moved around to in front of the hip at about 2 oclock or so it was my Eureka! moment. All the sudden I can carry a full size, double stack .45 (1911 widebody or Glock 21) with only marginal issue and a daily 226 with zero issue.

So an additional piece of advice is to make sure to try other locations on the belt and other styles. I also found, for me, single clip thin kydex with aggressive or adjustable cant are my wheelhouse. Awesome 4 oclock hybrid holsters like crossbreed or comptac or even good 2 wing holsters like the excellent milt sparks versamax 2 or similar just do not work for my body style, while the Vedder Light Tuck is my goldilocks holster.

So just embrace the journey, and love it

JR24 said:

Honestly, it's even easier for me to carry a big gun with a tucked in shirt and tuckable holster. I do it every Sunday at church and have surprised my wife a number of times because she didnt think I was carrying that day until I was changing after church.

The other thing I found was a godsend to me was when I stopped trying to carry at 4 or 5 oclock like everyone else does. I can barely carry a lcp in that spot and its uncomfortable. Once I moved around to in front of the hip at about 2 oclock or so it was my Eureka! moment. All the sudden I can carry a full size, double stack .45 (1911 widebody or Glock 21) with only marginal issue and a daily 226 with zero issue.

So an additional piece of advice is to make sure to try other locations on the belt and other styles. I also found, for me, single clip thin kydex with aggressive or adjustable cant are my wheelhouse. Awesome 4 oclock hybrid holsters like crossbreed or comptac or even good 2 wing holsters like the excellent milt sparks versamax 2 or similar just do not work for my body style, while the Vedder Light Tuck is my goldilocks holster.

So just embrace the journey, and love it

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I can't even carry my Shield in a tuckable holster with a tucked in shirt without printing badly. I'm a thinner guy and tend to wear fairly fitted clothes which I realize makes it tougher. Untucked anything and I'm good to go with the Shield but I don't generally carry a double stack unless I've got at least a sweatshirt on. I carry at 1-2 o'clock as well. Fortunately our church is on the more casual side so I'm good there with an untucked shirt. The killer for me is working in a business casual office, but I don't feel the need to carry there anyway so it's not a big deal.

IdaD said:

I can't even carry my Shield in a tuckable holster with a tucked in shirt without printing badly. I'm a thinner guy and tend to wear fairly fitted clothes which I realize makes it tougher. Untucked anything and I'm good to go with the Shield but I don't generally carry a double stack unless I've got at least a sweatshirt on. I carry at 1-2 o'clock as well. Fortunately our church is on the more casual side so I'm good there with an untucked shirt. The killer for me is working in a business casual office, but I don't feel the need to carry there anyway so it's not a big deal.

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Do this. Position your gun and holster, tuck in your shirt and tighten your belt. Then "blouse" your shirt -- pull out a couple of inches all around and let it hang naturally. Your gun will disappear.

Wanderling said:

It took me a good few years between getting my license and actually carrying daily. The problem ? I was constantly torn between being uncomfortable or printing too much (or believing that I was). I believe that’s the problem a lot of people are facing... more than care to admit.

Here’s what I learned the hard way - and would like to share *my* experience and hard learned lesson.

Forget about caliber. Forget about round count.

Get the smallest gun that you absolutely are comfortable carrying, in all circumstances and clothing. For me it was an LCP in .380, for someone else it may be a Shield or a .32 or even a .22. Doesn’t matter. It’s still a whole lot better than nothing.

The idea is to carry it daily and carry it everywhere it’s legally possible, until it becomes your second nature and you no longer feel like the entire world is staring at you.

Once the novelty is gone and you are confident and used to carrying daily, then you will be able to try larger guns in larger calibers and different carry options. You will no longer be as frustrated (because you know that, no matter what, you have a guaranteed backup plan), you will no longer feel overwhelmed or intimidated, and you will have enough experience to know whether you have a real or imaginary printing issue. It took me a couple years to admit to myself that, no matter how I tried, I just couldn’t stand carrying a double stack 9mm IWB. Now, I am getting back to carrying it more and more - OWB, in the Glock’s own cheap-yet-excellent plastic holster, first in winter, then finding some combinations of lighter clothing that work, and if it doesn’t seem to work that day, hello LCP. I don’t think that I would have progressed that far with G26 have I not went the LCP route.

Just my two cents...

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I disagree that those who carry should start with a small gun unless they are seasoned shooters who have not carried in the past for one reason or another. Small guns are not easy to shoot. Statistics tells us that most civilian gunfights happen within 10 yards. There are 1-3 attackers. Most of the time it is low light, not necessarily dark but low light like in a parking garage. When it is a shooting meaning only one person has a gun 1-3 shots are fired. When it is gunfight meaning more than one person is shoot the number of shots fired is the number of rounds in the mag. When you look at these factors a newer shooter with small gun is putting themselves at a huge disadvantage.

A good general benchmak for competency with the gun you carry is "The Test" made famous by Hackathorn, Vickers & Wison. This drill has to be run cold. Do not run it over and over again until you pass. No warm up. Get to the range and setup the target and run "The Test". Place a target with a B-8 target at 10 yards. You can shoot this from the low ready. It random on a timer and when it goes off draw and fire 10 rounds into that B-8 target. The goal is 10 rounds into the target in 10 seconds with nothing outside the black. Here is a video of Hackthron & LAV shooting "The Test."



So with an LCP you can drop that down to 7 seconds. That is a tough task for even a seasoned shooter. 10 in 10 with a Glock 19 with nothing outside the black is not as easy as you might think. So my point is that you are setting these new concealed carry holders up for possible failure if they have to use the gun. Not many people who are new to conceal carry will be able to get the 7 shots off in 7 seconds let along keep them in the black. If you let someone shoot "The Test" back to back first with a LCP or pocket gun and then a Glock 19 the targets will speak for themselves which is the more effective gun. Do you think that you can pass the test with a J frame or LCP?

I also completely disagree that caliber does not matter and that any gun even a 22Lr is better than nothing. If the caliber is too small and the gun is too hard to shoot the chances of it delivering a lethal hit is diminished. All scenarios are different and IMHO always having any gun is not always better. The presence of a gun can escalate an event and if the one you are carrying is not an effective defensive tool it will not serve you well if called upon. Tiny guns in tiny calibers give a false sense of security not real protection.

So with that said I personally always recommend the following when someone asks me about starting to concealed carry. I always ask what gun do you shoot best. Within reason I always recommend carrying that gun. If they say a longslide 1911 I recommend the next best shooting pistol LOL. Positive hits are the only ones that count. Accuracy is final if you are fast enough. Once they have picked the gun to carry here are my other recommendations. For handling and accuracy reasons I recommend a compact pistol in the range of a Glock G26-G19. Trigger type is up to the shooter.

• I then tell them get a good holster. It does not have to be an expensive holster but a good holster and be prepared to get a different one if it does not "fit" the user. Look for quality used holsters. What is perfect for me might not be perfect for you so lots of good gear gets sold in LNIB condition.
• Get a solid gun belt. It does not have to be leather but it has to be rock solid to serve as a foundation of your carry system.
• Wear the gun around the house to get used to it. Sit with it in the holster. Walk around and do your daily tasks. This will help you get used to its weight and how it feels.
• Do not worry about printing. If you live in a state that has open carry if you print or show the gun bending over you will not be in any trouble. If you are in a state without open carry then make sure your cover garment covers the gun when you bend over, reach up etc... People are not looking at you waist. If they see something under your shirt they will think its a cell phone, pocket knife flashlight etc but most people will never notice. The ones that do will no care.
• Don't touch or figit with the gun. Leave it alone. This is a big tell and if you find that you constantly need to adjust how the gun is riding you need a different belt or different holster.
• Go about your daily business as you always do and work on your situational awareness. Good situational awareness will help you avoid ever having to use the pistol you carry.

If someone starts with a tiny pistol too often people stay with that tiny pistol because it makes concealed carry too easy. Concealed carry should be a commitment IMHO because only when you treat it that way can you be proficient in it.

Jeb Stuart said:

As much as I love shooting, and the peace of mind that CCW Provides, I hate to carry a weapon. Just
Just "One", of the reason why I am a fan of the small Pocket guns. Very OCD about my clothes fitting properly. Would never dream of buying pant too big just to accommodate a firearm. Not to mention I would get claustrophobic with a gun stuck into my pants. Even though I own many small guns, the fantastic little Pico is my main choice. And I have spent quite a bit of ammo and invested a lot of time in training with it and can shoot it very well. Yes, sometimes I will carry other guns, but Do not like it. A small Nano in a AWB holster, Or A small Snubbie. That is as far as it goes. And thank God for the NEWER SLIDE BELTS. I love these with or without a firearm.
And I will only carry a double action. Do not want, desire, or need a light trigger for any gun.

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I couldn’t carry a Pico. I guess it just doesn’t fit my hand And they point low. Every time I have to shoot one, I feel like I’m going to shoot my self in the foot.
It’s a good thing that there are so many good guns on the market that we have to choose from.

WVsig said:

I disagree that those who carry should start with a small gun unless they are seasoned shooters who have not carried in the past for one reason or another. Small guns are not easy to shoot. Statistics tells us that most civilian gunfights happen within 10 yards. There are 1-3 attackers. Most of the time it is low light, not necessarily dark but low light like in a parking garage. When it is a shooting meaning only one person has a gun 1-3 shots are fired. When it is gunfight meaning more than one person is shoot the number of shots fired is the number of rounds in the mag. When you look at these factors a newer shooter with small gun is putting themselves at a huge disadvantage.

A good general benchmak for competency with the gun you carry is "The Test" made famous by Hackathorn, Vickers & Wison. This drill has to be run cold. Do not run it over and over again until you pass. No warm up. Get to the range and setup the target and run "The Test". Place a target with a B-8 target at 10 yards. You can shoot this from the low ready. It random on a timer and when it goes off draw and fire 10 rounds into that B-8 target. The goal is 10 rounds into the target in 10 seconds with nothing outside the black. Here is a video of Hackthron & LAV shooting "The Test."



So with an LCP you can drop that down to 7 seconds. That is a tough task for even a seasoned shooter. 10 in 10 with a Glock 19 with nothing outside the black is not as easy as you might think. So my point is that you are setting these new concealed carry holders up for possible failure if they have to use the gun. Not many people who are new to conceal carry will be able to get the 7 shots off in 7 seconds let along keep them in the black. If you let someone shoot "The Test" back to back first with a LCP or pocket gun and then a Glock 19 the targets will speak for themselves which is the more effective gun. Do you think that you can pass the test with a J frame or LCP?

I also completely disagree that caliber does not matter and that any gun even a 22Lr is better than nothing. If the caliber is too small and the gun is too hard to shoot the chances of it delivering a lethal hit is diminished. All scenarios are different and IMHO always having any gun is not always better. The presence of a gun can escalate an event and if the one you are carrying is not an effective defensive tool it will not serve you well if called upon. Tiny guns in tiny calibers give a false sense of security not real protection.

So with that said I personally always recommend the following when someone asks me about starting to concealed carry. I always ask what gun do you shoot best. Within reason I always recommend carrying that gun. If they say a longslide 1911 I recommend the next best shooting pistol LOL. Positive hits are the only ones that count. Accuracy is final if you are fast enough. Once they have picked the gun to carry here are my other recommendations. For handling and accuracy reasons I recommend a compact pistol in the range of a Glock G26-G19. Trigger type is up to the shooter.

• I then tell them get a good holster. It does not have to be an expensive holster but a good holster and be prepared to get a different one if it does not "fit" the user. Look for quality used holsters. What is perfect for me might not be perfect for you so lots of good gear gets sold in LNIB condition.
• Get a solid gun belt. It does not have to be leather but it has to be rock solid to serve as a foundation of your carry system.
• Wear the gun around the house to get used to it. Sit with it in the holster. Walk around and do your daily tasks. This will help you get used to its weight and how it feels.
• Do not worry about printing. If you live in a state that has open carry if you print or show the gun bending over you will not be in any trouble. If you are in a state without open carry then make sure your cover garment covers the gun when you bend over, reach up etc... People are not looking at you waist. If they see something under your shirt they will think its a cell phone, pocket knife flashlight etc but most people will never notice. The ones that do will no care.
• Don't touch or figit with the gun. Leave it alone. This is a big tell and if you find that you constantly need to adjust how the gun is riding you need a different belt or different holster.
• Go about your daily business as you always do and work on your situational awareness. Good situational awareness will help you avoid ever having to use the pistol you carry.

If someone starts with a tiny pistol too often people stay with that tiny pistol because it makes concealed carry too easy. Concealed carry should be a commitment IMHO because only when you treat it that way can you be proficient in it.

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To answer your question above "Do you think you can pass the test with a J frame or LCP?" Absoutely, not only pass it but perform much better.(I shoot the Pico and Kahr) Do I think most folks that carry them can? NO.
For over 10 years I have been pretty much ridiculed because I have said my pocket guns ARE RANGE GUNS. And have constantly advocated diligent and frequent range time. More so than regular guns. Drives me nuts when I hear posters say these guns are just made to shoot a few feet. They are not. They can do well at 10 yds all day long and do it fast.
What I have witness over the past decade are folks that own these guns, just not training. And when they shoot them, they are doing nothing but target shooting these guns. You know, taking their time, getting the right stance, and slowly squeezing the trigger. They Target shoot these gun, when they should be at the range often and learing point and shoot skills. Hitting Center mass under 3 secs. from the draw.

BUT! I agree, they are NOT for Beginners. And I would never advise a beginner to buy a Pocket gun, unless they want to start now to do a lot of training Same with a Snubbie.
The great part for me is I love shooting them. Both the pocket gun and the Snubbie. Just plain fun.

WVsig makes some good points.

For me, my wake-up call came around 1990 when I got a temp assignment as a military police investigator and had to shoot our handgun qual course (which started with several shots from the 25 yard line) with a S&W Model 36 … 'Course later, investigators in the military got SIG P-228s, which are basically full-sized pistols but by then I was back on patrol and we'd finally received M9s to replace our 1911s or Model 10 and 15 revolvers …

Nope, I just can't shoot a J-frame better than I can with a larger gun (and I have devoted a lot of time over the years training with small pistols and revolvers) , but ammo capacity and reserves is as big a factor for me as shootability with a concealed carry handgun. The concealment piece for a carry gun is, for me, not my primary consideration for choice of platform.

1) You can draw it quickly.
2) You can shoot it well.
3) It's in an effective caliber.

I've been shooting handguns regularly for around 40 years. I can shoot snubbies and micro 380's just fine. In hot summer weather I generally carry an LCR, or less often an LCP-type pistol. The way I carry them, I can draw them quickly. I can shoot them well (decades of practice shooting handguns). I feel comfortable with 380acp or (preferably) +P 38 special hollowpoints. That works for me. There are plenty of people it wouldn't work for. They should carry something else.

In cold weather I may well put a Glock OWB under an extra shirt or light jacket, but that's just kind of because I can. If three guys jump out of the bushes right on top of me with knives, or some nut job opens up on me at 25 yards with an AK, I am somewhat dubious that having extra rounds in my handgun is going to help my chances of survival much.

I only read the first few posts, that said, I carry a Glock 23 and I just wear an untucked T-shirt or button up shirt or polo type shirt. I always wear a TUCKED IN tank top undershirt (and it is snug, but it's comfortable), it's just more comfortable when I'm carrying. I do not wear tight outer shirts, I never have (even before I carried) and I never will. So when people see me, I look totally natural. As for printing, I agree with others who say something along the lines of: "if no one is looking for a conceal carried gun, no one will notice you're printing...:" I tend to agree. That said, I just don't wear tight fitting shirts or pants, and I never have. It's not that I'm a big guy or anything, I'm 6'0, 200lbs, I just prefer looser fitting pants and shirts (not sloppy looking).

Anyhow, just my two cents...

It's hard for someone like me to understand the mindset of starting out small for carry. I grew up with a pistol on my hip out exploring the woods, so I naturally started carrying a large pistol when in town.

I started with a Ruger D90 .45 acp, then went to the S&W 686 4", then the carry guns kept getting smaller.

But I do see why someone who didn't grow up with guns would want to start small.

My advice would be , get a big box to put all the holsters in until you find the right one . I found appendix carry with the Vedder light tuck and a custom OWB by R.Grizzle at 4 o'clock position , with a good EDC belt by Kore Essentials.

cw308 said:

My advice would be , get a big box to put all the holsters in until you find the right one . I found appendix carry with the Vedder light tuck and a custom OWB by R.Grizzle at 4 o'clock position , with a good EDC belt by Kore Essentials.

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That's some truth right there. Good God I've spent so much money on Holsters, I can't even count. I've settled in with the TT Gunleather Slim IWB with "Mike's" cant.

guyfromohio said:

That's some truth right there. Good God I've spent so much money on Holsters, I can't even count. I've settled in with the TT Gunleather Slim IWB with "Mike's" cant.

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Yeah, now that I've found my best fits, I've been thinking I need to sell my 5 gallon tote worth of unused holsters. But I always worry I'll somehow miss the ones I sell (and haven't used in years)

The main paranoia can arise when deciding to carry where it is Prohibited. Of course I've never done so, but read about it.

No-not in a Post Office or other federal bldg., but in private businesses, when you might bend over to pick up something,or tie laces on running shoes.
>>The fear is mostly that you Won't be told when somebody is calling 911<<

Here are some professional takes on small guns.

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/is-a-pocket-gun-enough/

Note that Rehn finds that beginning shooters have significant difficulties with the smaller guns.

Greg Ellifritz points out some important factors: https://www.activeresponsetraining.net/small-pistols-have-some-inherent-problems

Make your own informed decisions. I've shot the small guns in training and matches and being an experienced shooter, I would rather carry a larger primary EDC but spend the time to master the smaller ones if circumstances warrant their carry.

I realize that most small guns are bought, and rarely shot.

Oh, I'm not offended. I am a scholar by trade and furnish info for those interested. That you shoot the small ones consistently is the best advice for anyone. BTW, Claude Werner (see tactical professor) and the Lucky Gunner web site - see the blog, has a whole bunch of useful small gun info. Kind of busy now to come up with the URLs. Signing off.

Jeb, discounting a professional's take on a serious issue without being bothered to actually read and understand what he's saying is ... well, not worth a response. Ellifritz' credentials and experience are second to none, and if he offers forth an opinion on anything, it's worth a read or a listen.

His point that malfunction clearing with micro autopistols is incredibly difficult, if not impossible, especially one-handed, under stress should give one pause about carrying these guns ... if one of these guns goes down, you might as well just throw it at your adversary.

Let's not go off on personality issues. Take the advice or not. We can talk about what they say. Greg's a good guy but discuss if he is right or wrong or the other experts discussing small guns. Claude is a fan. I know both of them. Don't know the Lucky gunner guys but they are usually informative.

GEM said:

Let's not go off on personality issues. Take the advice or not. We can talk about what they say. Greg's a good guy but discuss if he is right or wrong or the other experts discussing small guns. Claude is a fan. I know both of them. Don't know the Lucky gunner guys but they are usually informative.

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No problem. Deleted all post about pocket guns.