AR Ignorance and Education

You’re right the AR is the platform that has so many possibilities.

I’d suggest you get an inexpensive one and see what you like and don’t like. Then you can either upgrade it or get something fancier once you figure that out. Or sell it in the slight chance you hate it.

The short answer is the more expensive guns typically have nicer components, have better fit and finish and bigger companies to support them. But even the inexpensive guns typically have good or great warranties.

Personally, if say get a 223 AR so you can shoot it and learn the platform. But if you really like the 6.5 Grendel then how with the BCA as it’s a good deal. In fact, I like putting ARs together but the BCA is such a good deal I’ve had to use a ton of restrain to resist getting one.

An AR in 223/5.56 will cover a lot of bases with readily available,and relatively cheap ammo ranging from 50-75 gr. Heavier, and lighter, bullets are available, just not as common. There ain't as big of a gap in performance between a 75 gr 223 and a 123 gr 26 caliber bullet as a lot of folks think. And ammo is a lot cheaper and more available. I'd also recommend one in 223/5.56 1st. You can always upgrade to 6.5 Grendel, or any other cartridge that appeals to you later at relatively little expense. Having the option to shoot cheap 223/5.56 ammo and then change uppers and magazines to shoot something bigger from the same lower might be a good financial move.

I would recommend that you go with a traditional DGI gun to take advantage of the entire market. Piston systems add little in performance if you're not running a suppressor and are all proprietary, which limits some of your aftermarket options. Standard DGI is very reliable when assembled correctly and is typically a little lighter in weight and a little flatter in recoil than piston guns. I would recommend you go with the longest practical gas system; if you go with a standard 16 inch barrel, I would look for a mid-length gas system. If I went with a barrel longer than 16", I would get the rifle length.

Modern loads for the 5.56 give it a lot of potential, as stated. You might want to look into getting a 5.56 first. Not much most of us need to do with a rifle inside 300 yards that can't be done with 5.56, though I would suggest you get a 1:8 twist or faster to take advantage of the heavier bullets. Most of your best long range, hunting, and defense options are the heavier Barnes and OTM rounds that really pick up where the 1:9 twist found on more sporting oriented rifles leaves off.

If you decide you want the added mass and range at a later date, you can order a 6.5 upper in the mail and have it shipped to your doorstep, then swap uppers out with just a couple of pins in less time than it takes to read about it.

Check out the models like the S&W sport, the Ruger 5.56, and the various models PSA offers. The best thing about an AR is that they are like legos- easy to add to, upgrade, etc., until you decide when to stop.

A guy struggles to spend less than $400 on a quality AR, any time in the ~20yrs. At the other end, a guy can spend $4,000 in the blink of an eye if they take a “no expenses spared” approach.

I’ve built and rebuilt literally hundreds of AR’s, I generally tell guys, if you want an inexpensive carbine, just buy one and live happy. For almost ANYTHING else, building your own or having one built to suit makes the most sense - a guy can build a better rifle for less cost.

If you treat your AR like a rifle, not an AR, and care more about performance than ammunition cost, then the 6.5 Grendel is likely the ideal common factory round for the AR platform. Ammo and components are widely and readily available, and the versatility across multiple applications has far fewer concessions than the 5.56. I have a bunch of 5.56 AR’s, but largely don’t find them terribly interesting - but what we can do with 6-7mm 2.3” cartridges is REALLY intriguing.

I run H2 buffers (for carbine extension stocks, naturally), full auto/M-6 carriers, and adjustable gas blocks in almost all of my personal AR’s, and highly recommend all of the above for any non-race purpose 6.5 Grendel.

The relative enhancement of most “enhancements” are really only enhanced costs. Billet receiver sets look cool, but aren’t structurally any better than forgings. Oversized bolt catch paddles are overhyped. Some things make a lot of sense, and have a lot of utility - for example, I have ambi mag releases and ambi safeties on all of my personal AR’s, and Ambi charging handles on almost all of them. Never have T marks been a factor in my day-to-day with my rifles, but they sure seem important in advertising copy.

If I’m building an AR, the most important things I spend money for are the barrel, the trigger, adjustable gas block, and a quality free float handguard. You get what you pay for with these items, whereas largely with the rest of the rifle, more money spent is either individual preference or simply more money spent... standard carriers might not be as pretty as chromed or NiB, but they run just as well.

Now - none of that is meant to discourage you from splurging on a beautifully designed, individualistic piece of functional art. Only meant to encourage you to understand more about what makes a difference in the rifle rather than just a difference in your rifle budget.

I like your thinking, my first AR was a home built 6.5 grendel about 7 years ago.

I had a 223 and 222 bolt gun and at the time AR10s were more expensive to build. The 6.5G is fun to shoot at short ranges and supposedly has great characteristics at longer ranges. Ammo is pretty easily obtainable and not that pricey.

I dont remember if I'm running an H2 or H4 buffer, and a wolff +5% spring. It's an A2 fitted lower.

I still haven't jumped into ARs because every time I'm about to do it I think about why I would need one and come up empty. The caliber is too light for the hunting I do, and I think my home defense needs are already adequately addressed. Then again they'll never be this cheap again and I should probably just do a cheap PSA build to check that box off...

IdaD said:

I still haven't jumped into ARs because every time I'm about to do it I think about why I would need one and come up empty. The caliber is too light for the hunting I do, and I think my home defense needs are already adequately addressed. Then again they'll never be this cheap again and I should probably just do a cheap PSA build to check that box off...

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But it's a gun, you always need more guns lol

The possibilities for burning up money on a fancy AR are endless. In my opinion a shooter should start their AR adventure with a standard military style iron sighted model and master the use of the rifle first. After one has become proficient with the basic AR, they will know better what they want to change or upgrade. You may find you like it just fine in stock form or may decide to go all Tactical Tommy with it. That's up to you but IMHO a standard A2 style AR is very capable in the right hands.

If I didn’t already have a 6.5 grn I would likely start with something like this and a bolt.

https://www.deltateamtactical.com/D...andguard-Assembled-or-Unassembled_p_9099.html

If it didn’t deliver or I wanted more, then move up.

I generally am a “you get what you pay for” guy but I bought one of their 450 BM uppers, just because and was really impressed with what I got for the money. My buddy was too, he bought it from me once I was done playing with it.

FL-NC said:

Check out the models like the S&W sport, the Ruger 5.56, and the various models PSA offers. The best thing about an AR is that they are like legos- easy to add to, upgrade, etc., until you decide when to stop.

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What is this STOP thing you speak of?

Cue picture from Gunny of his ARs

Seriously, ARs should come with a warn8 g that they’re HIGHLY addictive. Legos is a great description. And all of the sub hobbies such as making, customizing, Reloading collecting and yea shooting are fun.

Once you get and AR, you'll never not have one. They are fun to shoot and the possibilities are endless.

LRDGCO said:

Exactly.

But, look at the Grendel. 120 grs at 2700 is just behind the Swede. I don't hunt out beyond 300 yards. Not a good enough shot. So for coyote and eating pigs, this becomes interesting. In any event, something I feel I should understand better.

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120 at 2700 sounds pretty ambitious for most of the grendel velocities I've seen.

my advice would be to go to a larger store and play touchy feely and see what feels good and looks attractive to you.

Personally I love AR's but I have very particular preferences. I hate adjustable stocks, I like fixed A2 style stock. I hate the AR charging handle, so all of mine are side charging uppers. I found through trying different things that I like 15" slim free float forends. I prefer 16 to 20" lightweight barrels. No thanks on any bull or over 22" barrels for me. After I figured all that out it they started multiplying. I now have a 223, a 7.62x39, a 300 blackout, a 9mm, and a 6.5 creedmoor AR10, all built on the same theme. Have a few more coming down the tube as well.

IdaD said:

I still haven't jumped into ARs because every time I'm about to do it I think about why I would need one and come up empty. The caliber is too light for the hunting I do, and I think my home defense needs are already adequately addressed. Then again they'll never be this cheap again and I should probably just do a cheap PSA build to check that box off...

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We live in a country of wants, not a land of needs. All you NEED is food, air, water and shelter. If it tickles you and you can afford it, buy one. Life is too short to wonder why you need something.

Take a look at 6.5 Grendel Forum if you want a lot of information on Grendels. There are several other caliber specific forums out there also. I think you need to decide what you want to do with your AR first. There are a lot of wildcat calibers coming out now for the AR platform that are fairly easy to do if you reload. The 6mm Grendel uses the 6.5 Grendel case and necks it down to 6mm as an example.

Ar's are like Lays Potato chips, you can't stop with just one . I built my first one four years ago and now have ten. If your going to build your own AR you might want to check out True Sporting Arms website, they sell Black Hole Weaponry barrels and have sales fairly often.

I agree completely with Varminterror's post #6 and with many others. There is a lot of good advice from all of the members here.

LRDGCO said:

Exactly.

But, look at the Grendel. 120 grs at 2700 is just behind the Swede. I don't hunt out beyond 300 yards. Not a good enough shot. So for coyote and eating pigs, this becomes interesting. In any event, something I feel I should understand better.

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Be careful, 120 gr @ 2700 fps is pushing pretty hard. Best I've done is 2600 fps with 123 gr SST and 8208 XBR. One jagged hole but had ejector swipes and was at max powder charge recommend. The 6.5 Grendel bolt is the same outer dimensions as the 556 bolt, they thin out the interior to fit the case which can lead to breaking bolt lugs if pushed too hard. The web on a 556 bolt is 0.070" thick while the Grendel bolt web is only 0.045" thick. Here's a picture. 556 on left, 6.5 Grendel on the right.

People always say the AR10/LR308 is a heavy beast for a .308 type rifle......and they are right.

9 lbs 10 ozs unloaded. It’s only going to get heavier once I put a proper length barrel on.

LRDGCO said:

But, a recent article in Handloader on Wilson Combat's new 300 HAMR reminded me that the AR is today what the lever gun was 100 years ago, a handy, utility rifle, albeit with much more potential. In that light, I got more interested.

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Your comparison of the AR15 to the modern version of the lever action rifle is spot-on--it is an accurate, light, handy, utility rifle but with a modern twist--being able to stuff a variety of cartridges ranging from .22 caliber to .45 with merely a change of bolt, barrel, and magazine (and not even that for some cartridges).

Its component based design allows cheap and easy alterations (as one poster above said about it being Legos for adults) and one lower (the firearm) can serve a number of different uppers which are not considered firearms and may be purchased online and shipped to one's home. The lower receivers are also inexpensive enough to have a variety of fixed or adjustable stocks without requiring a gunsmith's services to fit a rifle to the shooter.

^^^ I have one A2 lower reciever and 3 uppers: 5.56, 6.5G, and 50B. All are totally different animals.

Personally, I identify the chambering, barrel and bolt that I want first, as these are the most important, the next on my list of importance is trigger, gas block and recoil spring/buffer. The rest are mostly just personal fit/visual/comfort.

Chambering: .22lr, 9mm, 223/5.56, 7.62x39, 300 BO, 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC II, .458 Socom, .450 Bushmaster. These cover a good cross section of what the AR15 can do. There are a lot more other chamberings out there, but these have shown themselves to be mainstays in the market in their value and performance relative to what their use will be.

22lr.: plinking, small game, training children
9mm: plinking, training, self defense, suppressed, training children
.223/5.56: plinking, training, self defense, hunting
7.62x39: plinking, training, self defense, hunting, suppressed
300 BO: suppressed, self defense, hunting
6.5 Grendel: distance, hunting
6.8 SPC II: self defense, hunting
.458 Socom: suppressed, hunting
.450 bushmaster: suppressed, hunting

These are generalities, but that is how I lump them. My preferences are bolded above, haven't decided between .458 and .450. The .450 has started to win out in my book simply because there are some bolt actions being chambered in it currently.


Barrel
What type of shooting are you going to be doing? Bench, stalk hunting, stand hunting, 3 Gun, Self-defense, Ammo Burner
Pistol, Carbine or Rifle determines barrel length.
This will dictate length, profile, material and gas port location.

Gas port locations Pistol = ~4"; Carbine = 7.5"; Mid-Length = 9.5", Rifle = 12.5"

Bolt
The next most important item that has varied degrees of quality
Steel Type: 8620 (most are through hardened), Carpenter 158 (surface hardened), 9310 (need to get the heat treat right, but is stronger than C158), Aremet 100 (premium and the price tells one so)
Finishes: phosphate, nickel boron, chrome, nitride, etc.
Inspection: Magnetic Particle Inspected (MPI), High Pressure Tested (HPT), Shot Peened (more of a process of releaving stress than an inspection)
Features: Extractors should be of quality parts, this is a more frequent failure prone part on an AR15, one can upgrade extractor parts for >$10 and it's worth one's while.

I would never consider a 8620 as it is through hardened so it won't absorb the shock of the impulse leading to cracks, Carpenter 158 is a great duty level of performance as it is surface hardened which leaves the underlying metal malleable to absorb shock impulses.

Carrier
Type: Semi-Auto; Full-auto, lightweight, adjustable gas
Steel Type: Typically 8620 or Carpenter 158, some 9310
Finishes: phosphate, nickel boron, chrome, nitride, etc.
Features: Grade 8 fasteners, staked or non-staked gas keys

Here there are options on carrier type have a lot to do with weight. The full-auto carrier is just that, it would be sufficient to operate in a full auto M16/m4 it has extra weight in the tail as well as fully shrouded firing pin (right BCG in picture below) the left two BCG's are variations on semi-auto carriers. A lot of the choice here would be predicated on what type of carbine/rifle you wish to build/buy. For a bench gun, huting gun, a lighter weight semi-auto carrier would be nice for lowering the weight of reciprocating mass. If it's to be a self-defense, or ammo burner, a heavier weight carrier would be preferable. I personally, don't like the unshrouded firing pin versions, but that's more personal preference.

Adjustable carriers, there are two companies that I know of that have adjustable carriers, Gemtech and Primary Weapons. They have an adjustable port typically just below the staked portion of the gas key on the ejection port side of the carrier. I don't have any personal knowledge of their utility.



Trigger
I'm sure you know what a good trigger feels like as you don't know much about AR15 but I'm assuming you know plenty about other rifles/triggers.

Combat trigger, single stage, two-stage, adjustable, binary, drop in.
Value triggers: LaRue MBT (my favorite), ALG
Premium triggers: Geissele, Timney, ELF, Hiperfire
Specialty triggers: Fostech, Franklin Armory (both are binary triggers) I don't have any experience with these as they don't trip my trigger)

Gas Block
A key design of a quality barrel is a correctly drilled/sized gas port, this is where differences can be seen in budget barrels versus quality barrels.

Type: Low Profile, A2 gas block, adjustable

Low Profile is for gas blocks that reside under free floating rails, these are either clamp style or set-screw into a dimple on barrel. I prefer to have an alignment dimple that the set screw sets into.
A2 Gas block is a great option for a rough use carbine, it's dependable and very strong, and provides a front sight. Downsides are it pigeon holes you into certain hand guard types that are most typically non-free float, you can get a set screw type A2 gas block and utilize a free float but that seems dumb to me, its a compromise on the A2's ruggedness.
Adjustable gas blocks are great for those who want to tune a bench rest rifle, hunting, suppressed, etc. There are varied types of adjustable gas blocks, some just restrict flow, and some will bleed off extra gas at the block itself.


Recoil Spring/Buffer
Recoil Spring: Standard coil, flatwire, silent capture springs
Buffer Weight: H (4oz), H2 (4.5oz), H3 (5.5oz), H4 Tungsten (6.5oz)

The standard coil while it does what it supposed to, there are better options. Flatwire or silent capture springs are a great way to get added performance and comfort. The first time one shoots an AR15 chances are they will notice the SPROING noise right at their ear. Most do not notice it as they get familiar with the AR15, however there are options on fixing/mitigating that noise while adding some performance/handling benefits. Greasing a spring will help dampen the noise as well and is a low cost option to get some benefit.

Handguard
Type: Free-float, non-free float
Features: Pictinney, M-Lok, Keymod
Materials: Aluminum, carbon fiber, polymer

The biggest performance difference here would be free-float versus non-free float. Free floating hand guards minimize contact with the barrel which will improve accuracy. Downside to this would be not as robust as an A2 sight setup and a non free floating hand guard. Pictinney, M-Lok and Keymod are personal preference, they all have great 3rd party support, pick one and go with it. I prefer M-Lok as I don't like the look of Keymod, and like I MagPul.

For lightweight hunting rifles the carbon fiber hand guards are a great option to lose weight out front.

All the other stuff is gravy on the meat and potatoes.

What I typed out was just my own synopsis gathered over the years. There are great resources on the internet, one just has to spend time on a lot of them to brush aside the BS and keep the knowledge.