Can I cheat? Red dots, lasers, other aids make it easier?

It might help a tiny bit to know about what kind of gun you're shooting. Until then:

westernrover said:

It could be a better trigger, better grip, laser, red dot, scope, FO sights, porting or compensators...

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Here are my suggestions/thoughts on each of those:

• "Better trigger" can mean different things to different people, but if you mean a light-ish and clean trigger with a short travel... yeah, that makes it a little easier. Think about a DA revolver trigger. During the course of that trigger's travel, the shooter has to input significant force to keep the trigger moving rearward, and stands a very high chance (a near certainty, really) of providing at least some spurious input (lateral force on the trigger, sympathetic hand squeeze, etc.). If that travel is shorter and requires less force, there is likely to be a reduction of spurious input. HOWEVER: for people who battle a flinch, it is sometimes easier to avoid anticipating the shot and getting the big pre-ignition push (coincident with a blink of the eyes, usually) if the trigger has a roll to it, rather than a very discrete break. But even those folks will benefit from a rolling trigger that is lighter and smoother.
• "Better grip." Bullseye shooters have lots of views about how the grip is supposed to align various parts of the hand. For one-handed bullsesye shooting, this must make sense because they almost all seem to care about it. For modern 2-handed shooting, the main thing is to have adequate purchase/friction on the gun. Certainly if the gun is squirming around in your grip during recoil, or, worse, during the trigger pull, that's not going to make things easier. But people don't generally start shooting tighter groups because they change grips... unless the grip is messing up the angle that they interact with the trigger or something.
• "Laser." I don't think lasers will generally help people shoot tighter groups. Everything they do, red-dot sights do better, unless something is preventing you from getting the gun/optic into your line of sight. They can be interesting as a dry-fire tool to show you what the muzzle is doing... but you need to learn to see that from the dot or iron sights, which is even easier in dry fire.
• "Red dot." Yes, I think these make a lot of people more accurate. Being able to shoot target-focused all the time is nice. Being able to have a finer aiming point that the whole width of the top of the front blade is nice for some. In bullseye, they are commonly used and seen as an advantage. In the speed-influenced games, they are seen as such a big advantage that they have their own divisions.
• "Scope." Unless you are shooting with the gun rested at stuff far away, just nope. It's hard to learn to "shoot the wobble" with non-magnified sights. Magnification magnifies the apparent amount of wobble.
• "Fiber optic sights." Are great if you can't/won't get an optic dot, and only get the front sight with a dot, and get the right size dot - but they also won't help with group sizes. The sights generally aren't even set up to put the bullet on the fiber dot - you're supposed to "shoot the dot" at speed on closer targets, and use the top of the blade like normal for further targets. This is a speed enhancer, not an accuracy enhancer for about 99% of shooters.
  
• "porting or compensators." Unless you're shooting something with enough gas to really work the comp, no. They'll make the gun louder, which tends to make it harder for people to shoot small groups with. And they don't usually reduce actual recoil - they reduce muzzle rise. If you're not talking about magnum revolvers, these are "go fast" devices, not "shoot small" devices. They can also introduce accuracy issues of their own.

My main use for a laser is to get better at double action revolvers. If I can work the trigger without jumping the dot all over the place, then I'm getting somewhere. Sometimes I'll actually use it at the range, but it's pretty useless outdoors on a bright day.

AZAndy said:

My main use for a laser is to get better at double action revolvers. If I can work the trigger without jumping the dot all over the place, then I'm getting somewhere. Sometimes I'll actually use it at the range, but it's pretty useless outdoors on a bright day.

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I've got lasers on all my carry guns, because it's a see the dot and shoot! they do work, still require practice, but with enough practice you will develop muscle memory and yes for awhile I could point shoot cans easily without the laser, got out of practice shooting my smoke poles, but will be back to pointing with lasers when the weather improves...

I am offended OP calls it cheating. Using the best tools to improve your ability to do a job is not cheating. It is doing the job right. Should I opt for poorer results? I think not. Single action triggers and red dots have cut my groups in half. Why would I do it any other ways?

rpenmanparker said:

I am offended OP calls it cheating. Using the best tools to improve your ability to do a job is not cheating. It is doing the job right. Should I opt for poorer results? I think not. Single action triggers and red dots have cut my groups in half. Why would I do it any other ways?

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Might be because a lot of "experts" think night sights, lasers, porting, and the like are useless, and those who choose to use them simply need more training... With that said, I don't personally like to depend on electronics like red dots and lasers even though I have lasers on multiple carry guns and red dots on some of my rifles.

Styx said:

Might be because a lot of "experts" think night sights, lasers, porting, and the like are useless, and those who choose to use them simply need more training... With that said, I don't personally like to depend on electronics like red dots and lasers even though I have lasers on multiple carry guns and red dots on some of my rifles.

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Quotation marks around “experts” is exactly right. Someone with more natural talent telling me I need more training can go.... I do what works best just like SWAT and Special Forces teams do.

Styx said:

I don't personally like to depend on electronics like ...

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My car's ignition system, the fly-by-wire controls on the airliner I'm riding in, the device that is allowing me to voice this sarcasm...

I like the feedback a laser gives me during dry fire practice. You won’t shoot straight if you can’t keep the gun still. A laser can assist with that learning curve. Of course dry fire practice and watching your sights for movement will accomplish the same thing.

I recommend shooting any gun for awhile before modifying. Then you’ll know what you need.

However, a grip that fits you can go a long way.

Styx said:

Might be because a lot of "experts" think night sights, lasers, porting, and the like are useless, and those who choose to use them simply need more training... With that said, I don't personally like to depend on electronics like red dots and lasers even though I have lasers on multiple carry guns and red dots on some of my rifles.

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Red dots can be very reliable depending on the model, a lot more reliable than fiber optics. Lost track of how many of those I've seen fall out of a front sight post. On the other hand red dots have fought a long drawn out war under a harsh climate with amazingly few complaints about them. Well Aimpoints at least.

JohnBiltz said:

Red dots can be very reliable depending on the model, a lot more reliable than fiber optics. Lost track of how many of those I've seen fall out of a front sight post. On the other hand red dots have fought a long drawn out war under a harsh climate with amazingly few complaints about them. Well Aimpoints at least.

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Wasn't trying imply that they can't be generally reliable. I just like to keep it simple and old fashion when it comes to my carry handguns. Not interested in having RMRs, weapon mounted lights, Hiv and the like mag extensions, etc hanging off my carry gun, but I have nothing against those that are interested in those things. Night sights and maybe an upgraded trigger is good enough for me.

I had problems picking up the sights, on a Springfield Armory 1911 1A 45, so I bought a Burris Fastfire III and a rear site mount, what a difference! I now enjoy shooting that gun at the range, where as before, that one would stay home, in the safe. For some reason, my other 2 45 autos, I didn't have that issue, but that reddot sure helped on that gun, for sure. I had lasers on my LCP, and my LC9, but just didn't like them, so took them off.

From my experience shooting USPSA no gadget is going to help you win. It's just you and the target. You cannot "make" the bullet hit the X - you must "let" the bullet hit the X. When I started there were no scopes or Red dots or lasers or compensators. Just plain black sights. The same thing goes for archery. Especially shooting a bow with no sights. It is pure Zen. Most people miss the target only because they flinched, jerked the trigger or steered the gun off target with their grip or they have not sighted their gun precisely. No gadget will overcome that. Just my 2 cents.

westernrover said:

I want to know about what accessories or modifications can make the fundamentals easier.

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The best accessories are a few boxes of ammunition. People all seem to have this idea that they can get better at something if they just throw a bunch of money at some silly gadgets. Only thing a bunch of accessories will do is make your gun heavier and look ridiculous. The best way to get better at shooting is to practice more. Can't get any simpler than that. But your kitty cat will be very happy if you buy a laser. They love those things. I saw one at Walmart that is shaped like a mouse and only cost $5. I suppose you could stick it to your gun with some tape. Why would you want to put a kitty toy on your gun anyway?

"people all seem to have this idea that they can get better at something if they just throw a bunch of money at some silly gadget" Yup. I've seen guys like that all of my life. And they never seem to improve. You have to spend time and money practicing. Dry firing at home is one of the best things you can do. When you can drop the hammer and see that the front sight does not move any at all - you will hit the targets at the range. There really are no shortcuts or "cheats".

I'm pretty much in the same camp as ATLDave (post #2).

westernrover said:

It could be a better trigger, better grip, laser, red dot, scope, FO sights, porting or compensators...

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For me, trigger is key. But once you get that great trigger on your handgun of choice, you'd better be practicing, otherwise it won't do you any good.

Better grip? If you have a pistol whose ergonomics "fits" you well, you shouldn't have to do much, if anything, with the grip. In my experience, most pistoleros prefer the grip shapes of 1911s, CZ-75 (and its variants, Tanfoglio/EAA/Witness), SIG classic P-series and original Beretta 92s (and the Vertec). The S&W M&P line, some of the Walthers, and finally, the newer H&Ks have some pistols that feel good in the hand and point well. Most of us who've been shooting a while have "that gun" ...

Laser sights ... don't make you shoot more accurately. Ever. But maybe if you want to impress that guy who's just broken into your rec room, sure ... call his attention to that little red dot on his torso.

Red dots are great, particularly on handguns once you get past the 15 yard line ... 15 yards and in, I'm all about iron sights, but if you've got aging eyes, the red dot is your salvation.

Scope? On a handgun? Seriously? If you're into handgun hunting, okay, but otherwise ... fogetaboutit.

Fiber optic sights won't make you more accurate, but they sure help you see that front sight in daytime, natural light. Indoors and low light/dark, not useful in the slightest.

Porting on a handgun ... sheesh. Again, if you're into handgun hunting (maybe your .454 Casull with an 8-inch barrel), sure. For the range? Do you want people to hate your guts?

Compensators ... ah, no. Just no.

Do what you like and what works best for you and don't worry about what everyone else thinks. Night sights, fiber optic sites, lasers, reddots, etc all have there place. They can help as enhancements under particular circumstances. Some people swear by them and some swear they're useless.... To each their own...

I have a Crimson Trace laser on my carry firearm. I have found through practice and training that it allows me to hit my target sitting , standing , laying down , walking , running , left handed and right handed. I think its the best device that one can put on a self defense firearm. As you can never know what situation you might be in when you need to use it. It's also helped me to become a better point shooter. Not having to aim down the sights has allowed me to get shots on target much quicker. Only have it on my self defense firearm. All my other firearms don't have lasers because I don't want to forget how to aim and shoot a gun.

Have a cheap red dot on my target Buckmark and a Sig Romeo5 on a new 686+.
Much more accurate with them than w/out.
Have a laser on a couple other handguns, equally accurate but don't like beam pointing out my position from the laser.
My edc is iron sights.

I have recently entered the world of RDS on pistols, and I have to say I do love them for competition guns. For my SD and carry guns however, I prefer to stick to standard night sights just as one less thing to go wrong in a SHTF situation.

As has been mentioned already, do what you feel is best for *you* and your situation, and don't worry about the rest of us.

At the end of the day, what makes you safest or most efficient?

Make sure the grip fits your hand, and that you are gripping the gun properly. If the trigger is heavy, vague or gritty, it will help a lot to get a better trigger. If you can't see the sights, it is hard to hit anything. When I was young, it seemed like I could focus on the target, front and rear sights at the same time. Now I'm lucky to focus on one of those. So I've gone to using red dot sights on as many things as I can. I've tried lasers, but they really show how much your aim bounces around, and most people end up "chasing" the laser, trying to either stabilize it (not practical) or jerking the trigger when it is on the target. If you can get past those two things by understanding the laser will wander around your target, it will work somewhat like a red dot sight. Once you have trained enough with a red dot to bring the gun up with the dot centered and on the target, it is easy peasy.

Meet my 'Halfbreed' it's a p229 Legion RX caliber conversion on one of my well-worn p229 carries (with a perfect trigger) I figure I saved around $600 getting the conversion kit although it is still expensive:



And I just realized you have to have already purchased a Legion pistol to be able to get this. I have a Legion p226 in .40. The conversion kit is also available in a non-Legion version. I think the p226 or p229 RX is available in Legion or non-Legion configurations.

I believe you can get the p320 in RX as well. The Army's M-18 and M-17 variants have the required sight plate.

westernrover said:

I'm looking for things that make it easier for a novice.

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You (and some other members) are not going to like my comments so you do well to skip over them.

You had to learn to walk before you could run. With shooting you must learn the basics. Too many shooters use very light trigger pulls to make up for their lack of proper trigger pull, lasers for not learning how to learn proper sight alignment, etc. There is not "cheating" when it comes to learning the basics. The bullet holes in or not hitting the paper target will tell you the truth.

We have red and green lasers on some of our guns. They are sort of fun. They wash out in bright light. 7 - 10 yards forget about easily seeing the dot. If you have not learned how to use proper front and rear sight alignment you are in deep do-do. You might hit your target using point-shoulder but in a self-defense situation you need to be thinking of where your missed shots are going.

We both like fiber optic sights. My edc has green front and rear, hers has red and green. They are easier to pick up but we still must align them properly for the bullet to hit where we want.

Get some coaching. Take the money you would spend on lasers, et. and spend it on ammo and range fee for practice instead. As you skill level increases you may rethink some accessories that seem like a good idea now.

I can shoot ok. Well enough that I wouldn't want to be my intended target. But a few years ago I could get the occasional 6 shots under 2" (standing 2 handed grip unsupported) at 25 yards. I consider that pretty good, better than ok, shooting. That was when my eyes were good. Now I don't shoot as much, in part because it isn't fun to not be able to see the front sight without cheaters, and then if you're wearing reading glasses, the target at 25 yards is more of a suggestion than a point of aim. It isn't easy to make up for declining occular ability, and any aid in that fight isn't cheating. They're only gimmicks if they don't work.