New AR/ AR10 purchase options

silicosys4 said:

Enjoy your sub MOA, perfectly functioning PA10

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Perhaps you should come over to the 308 forum and tell us all how stupid we are and that the rifles are fine as is?

ar-newbie said:

Perhaps you should come over to the 308 forum and tell us all how stupid we are and that the rifles are fine as is?

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Look, here's the plain honest truth. There are a lot of people on various forums that like to make a lot of noise and don't really know what they are talking about. Its often a lot to wade through and a lot of people will mislead you and be very confident in doing so. Maybe I'm one of those people. Maybe this 98z5v guy is one of those people. Its up to you to equip yourself with enough information to be able to discern the facts from noise.

I'll tell you this much. Based on what I know and what I've seen on that site, there is a lot of noise but not a lot of solid information. This guys theory about the recoil buffer is pretty much just noise with a few minor tidbits of good info. It's off base and incorrect, and if a lot of misinformed people such as yourself put a lot of faith in his theory, well, so be it. Perhaps you'll be satisfied with his theory, perhaps you'll decide to do your own research and come to a different conclusion. Let me offer this: He offers absolutely no evidence that anything he is saying is correct. No measurements, no test results, nothing. He just says it in a big, loud way with a lot of cursing and posturing, and you automatically assume it to be so. There are a lot of very knowledgeable people on a lot of other sites, and no one on any other site besides this guy suggests that the issue lies primarily and specifically with the buffer being 1.5oz. underweight. No one except him suggests that there actually is no overgassing issue. He is of course the only one with the truth, everybody else is just too stupid to agree with him.
If you buy that, well, have fun spreading that gospel.


I suggest you start researching gas port sizes among AR 308's, measure your gas port and compare. Read about the effect excess gas has on the timing of the bolt unlocking, the bcg speed resulting from early unlocking, the problems that early unlocking AR 308's have with extraction and ejection, and what a heavier buffer and spring combo do to mitigate that, vs what an adjustable gas block does to mitigate it.

Its not a buffer weight issue if you can use an adjustable gas block to reduce gas volume enough that it eliminates any issues with the standard H buffer and spring combo (and you can). Its a gas issue.

There are several threads with a lot of test results and measurements. seriously, I sent you the link and you haven't even taken the time to look at it. it's all wrong, solely because you said so. And apparently I am an idiot because I came right and asked PSA what parts to order to build a PA10 lower, ordered said parts, and ended up with a rifle that wouldn't function had I not been thorough in assembling the lower, and finding the buffer issues. Then, after later extensively testing my rifle, my ammunition, known good rifles with said ammunition and found a big difference in timing and recoil. Then, upon looking at known good rifles built on the DPMS platform, found the gas tube is in fact shorter than it should be, and PSA is recycling a lot of ar15 specific parts to make a large frame rifle that doesn't work correctly. It works, but not at all like a good rifle will. The insulting part is that I showed you photos of the problems, but I am an idiot and you know all. I can see where this is going, and you don't have the cojones to come over and inform us of your supreme knowledge on the topic.

ar-newbie said:

There are several threads with a lot of test results and measurements. seriously, I sent you the link and you haven't even taken the time to look at it. it's all wrong, solely because you said so. And apparently I am an idiot because I came right and asked PSA what parts to order to build a PA10 lower, ordered said parts, and ended up with a rifle that wouldn't function had I not been thorough in assembling the lower, and finding the buffer issues. Then, after later extensively testing my rifle, my ammunition, known good rifles with said ammunition and found a big difference in timing and recoil. Then, upon looking at known good rifles built on the DPMS platform, found the gas tube is in fact shorter than it should be, and PSA is recycling a lot of ar15 specific parts to make a large frame rifle that doesn't work correctly. It works, but not at all like a good rifle will. The insulting part is that I showed you photos of the problems, but I am an idiot and you know all. I can see where this is going, and you don't have the cojones to come over and inform us of your supreme knowledge on the topic.

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I'm here and so are you. Convince me. You. Yourself. Don't regurgitate a thread you don't understand for the umpteenth time. Convince me how a gas tube that you have admitted functions perfectly reliably is "wrong". Increase it 1/4" and it will still function exactly the same but only then it will be right? Because you say so? Not good enough.
Convince me that you know enough about the gas system and recoil system that I should pay attention to anything you say or trust your judgement and B.S. filter as to who does.

So far you have not answered anything I've said with anything even resembling a good answer. Just more "go read these unconfirmed theories with no credible evidence or testing, here's a thread that goes 'Reeeeeeeeee H3 buffer Reeeeeeee', my overgassed and undergassed rifle is running perfectly but it's not running right but I won't tell you how, it's super reliable and sub moa, so psa sucks and can't build rifles"

Let's start simple. You say you shot two other ar 308's and you KNOW something is wrong with your PA10 because you think the pa10 recoiled harder.

So how much does each rifle weigh to the ounce?
What type of muzzle device does each rifle use? Effectiveness varies between models, so we will need that too.
How many lbs of recoil did each rifle have?

These are the kinds of things you need to know to be making the kind of statements you are making. Actual facts and information.

the gas tube they are using is for an ar15, it is NOT made for a large AR rifle, therefor it sits lower to the bore, and has to be bent in order to MAKE it fit. The armalite tube is the proper tube to be used for the barrel and upper receiver. The hole the tube goes through into the receiver is higher on the PA10 than an ar15. This makes the tube too short, with the tube too short, the timing is thrown off, because it exits the gas key before it should. They are also under sizing the gas port, and this along with the tube being impeded where it enters the gas block, which many have experience with PA10 rifles out of the box. A proper running large platform AR rifle should not kick like a mule and claw up the brass, or have FTE FTF issues. It's well documented. And to clarify here, these were PSA assembled complete rifles that shipped with these types of problems.

the buffer they are using is an H buffer which is the wrong weight for the 308 cartridge. Then we can move on to the buffer being an odd depth, which leads to the bolt carrier crashing into the ears unless you notch the tube and screw it in another turn. The buffer spring is also too weak to handle the recoil and force of the rifle during firing. This all combines to throw the timing off. This is all due to there being no formal specification for the large frame AR rifles, and PSA winging it with the parts they already carry in their inventory. Is all that specific enough for you? I already outlined all of that multiple times and encouraged you to look at other large frame rifles that are good shooters to know. Any AR platform rifle large or small, has the gas tube extend into the center of the cam pin cut out in the upper receiver. This was part of the original design by Eugene Stoner himself. It's exactly how it was intended to work. I think he knew a lot more about it that you , I, or anyone else will know. Look at how far the tube is protruding into the upper, then look at the depth of the gas key. Gee, I wonder why that tube isn't going all the way in like it should? Could it be? they were being cheap and using the plentiful supply of AR15 gas tubes they already have on hand?

I am not depending solely on the poster on 308AR forum either, go and look at the recoil system information out there, and the various buffers and weights and their intended purposes. along with spring information as well. The PSA parts are thoroughly out of proper specifications.

As to the guy on the other forum who is making a mountain out of a mole hill, he has fixed rifles for other members at no cost to them, and they got back their rifle that worked correctly. That is being correct by actual deed, and not forum battles. So if none of this convinces you to possibly re examine your stance on it. Being so hard headed about it will never lead to PSA correcting the issues, and stop the nonsense from continuing. I would much rather see them fix these issues, and start shipping great running rifles, which will lead to them continuing production, so that those of us who did get one working right, can still obtain the proprietary parts (takedown pins, magazine release and bolt catch) long into the future should the need arise.

I didn't know any of this before I built my rifle, and that I can freely admit. However, I did a lot of research, and still do. I learn by doing, which is exactly how all of us got to the point we are. I am no expert, but I am far from being stupid and deserving of the problems I did have. Maybe if you didn't just rush out of the gate telling me what a moron I was, this would have gone entirely a different path. I show you what, why, and how. and am rebuked with none of that matters. That is the mark of ignorance on your part.

ar-newbie said:

Also, for those who don't want to take the time to follow the link, and look at some others on the 308ar forum specifically for the PA10 rifle, and see that there are NUMEROUS specific demonstrations of short gas tubes on the PA10.

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Did they also measure the gas key?

ar-newbie said:

the gas tube they are using is for an ar15, it is NOT made for a large AR rifle,

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I'll go ahead and assume you are correct, although i'm not convinced you are since you haven't given us a single shred of evidence this is the case other than you stating it is so. But since it makes no difference either way, for the sake of argument.

You are wrong, and you say it yourself in your next statement.

ar-newbie said:

therefor it sits lower to the bore, and has to be bent in order to MAKE it fit.

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Well, that sounds like a gas tube made for a large frame AR. A tube was purposefully bent to PA10 specs, and after being made to PA10 specs, it fits and functions just fine.

ar-newbie said:

The armalite tube is the proper tube to be used for the barrel and upper receiver.

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No its not, its one option that works identically to the gas tube that PSA uses. The ONLY difference between them is completely cosmetic. The Armalite tube does nothing different than that PSA tube. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

ar-newbie said:

The hole the tube goes through into the receiver is higher on the PA10 than an ar15. This makes the tube too short, with the tube too short, the timing is thrown off, because it exits the gas key before it should.

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Again, what are you talking about? What "timing issues"? How many people have to tell you that you don't have a short gas tube and you don't have timing issues arising from a short gas tube, because a short gas tube doesn't cause timing issues? A short gas tube causes short stroke issues. You just keep regurgitating stuff you don't understand.

ar-newbie said:

They are also under sizing the gas port, and this along with the tube being impeded where it enters the gas block, which many have experience with PA10 rifles out of the box.

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OOOH, the plot thickens. Now PA10's are undergassed at the port, undergassed at the gas key, but still overgassed at the buffer! Very interesting. That would certainly be a first, better get that well documented. Do your friends over at AR308 know you are making them look like idiots by claiming they taught you everything you know?

What is your gas port size? Mine is 0.089. Do you know what the generally accepted gas port size range is for an AR 308 rifle is? I really doubt you do, lol.

ar-newbie said:

A proper running large platform AR rifle should not kick like a mule

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Uh huh. So how many lbs. of recoil should 'A large platform AR" have?

You have no clue know what an AR 308 "should" kick like. You are basing this opinion on two other rifles you shot that might or might not have had muzzle brakes, might or might not have been several pounds heavier, might or might not have had the same gas system and barrel length as your rifle, and might or might not have been weak steel cased blasting ammo. Your comparison is so unscientific it is useless as anything more than an anecdotal experience. It certainly does not illustrate what a "proper running large platform AR rifle should kick like".

I don't know if you noticed, but muzzle brakes are a pretty popular addition to any AR 308, because the design tends to recoil hard, because the design tends to be overgassed, because the gas port specs are on the large end for AR 308 rifles because overgassing is pretty much universally preferred to undergassing.

ar-newbie said:

and claw up the brass

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Again, this is completely subjective, of no value to an analysis of the actual function of the rifle.

ar-newbie said:

or have FTE FTF issues.

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I agree with you. A properly running AR of any kind should not have FTE or FTF issues. How many have you had so far with your rifle?

ar-newbie said:

It's well documented.

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Its your argument, its your burden of proof to provide.

ar-newbie said:

And to clarify here, these were PSA assembled complete rifles that shipped with these types of problems.

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Given how misleading you've been in this thread, I no longer consider your word to be any kind of definitive evidence. You are going to have to provide links.

ar-newbie said:

the buffer they are using is an H buffer which is the wrong weight for the 308 cartridge.

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According to you. We just have to believe you.

So what is the average bolt velocity differences between the H and the H3 buffer?
How many rounds, on average, does the rifle last with an H buffer as compared with an H3 buffer before parts breakage becomes a problem?
What parts start breaking first?
How much longer does the addition of an H3 buffer keep the bolt locked closed during firing, allowing for pressure to drop before opening?

There is a range of weights that work for the PA10, depending on what extraction, ejection, recoil, and reliability characteristics you want. Less weight in the buffer and a larger gas port means more reliability with weaker ammo while still allowing reliable although vigorous function with full power ammo. Think PSA wanted their gun to run well with cheap, commonly found, commonly used, underpowered steel case plinking ammo? I'll bet that was a consideration.

ar-newbie said:

Then we can move on to the buffer being an odd depth, which leads to the bolt carrier crashing into the ears unless you notch the tube and screw it in another turn.

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Impossible. According to you the rifles have a short gas tube, so this is literally impossible. If a gun has a short gas tube that does not engage the carrier key enough, short stroking is the result. Short stroking means your bolt is not traveling fully to the rear, which means it isn't hitting the receiver. You gotta pick one. Either the rifles are all being built with PSA AR15 gas tubes that are too short and leave the gun undergassed and short stroking, Or the recoil system isn't strong enough to handle the recoil and the carrier is hitting the rear of the receiver.

Since it is one, not the other, and since the gas tubes are in reality fine, This carrier timing issue is about the only argument you've made that has a leg to stand on, so I can understand you beating it like a rented mule after I've acknowledged it several times, so here's a bone for you.
You are correct.
This is an ongoing issue with PSA that I experienced myself. They should clean that mess up.

ar-newbie said:

The buffer spring is also too weak to handle the recoil and force of the rifle during firing. This all combines to throw the timing off.

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Impossible, according to you. The rifles are undergassed from having a short gas tube, remember? Come on now.

Also, explain "timing" to us, since you've used it to describe several different processes by now, and I'm not sure you fully understand the differences.

ar-newbie said:

This is all due to there being no formal specification for the large frame AR rifles, and PSA winging it with the parts they already carry in their inventory. Is all that specific enough for you?

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Its specific, sure, and also wrong. PSA isn't winging it, ar-newbies stepping into builds they don't understand are winging it. PSA is putting together good running rifles, ar-newbies are putting the wrong buffer system together, putting Armalite pattern parts on DPMS pattern rifles, looking at gas tubes and calling perfectly functioning parts "wrong", taking unverified, untested, unproved, dubious and suspect information as fact, etc...
PSA is fine.

ar-newbie said:

I already outlined all of that multiple times and encouraged you to look at other large frame rifles that are good shooters to know.

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Lol, no you haven't. The only PA10 rifle you can verify as a good shooter or not is your own, and despite your best efforts to prove otherwise, is, according to you, sub MOA and functions perfectly.

ar-newbie said:

Any AR platform rifle large or small, has the gas tube extend into the center of the cam pin cut out in the upper receiver.

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Except for the ones that don't. Anyways, you are posting a lot of things as fact that you couldn't possibly know, "ar-newbie". This is yet another case of that. Look up "Proprietary system" and tell me what that means. Where the gas tube extends is only relevant if the rifle doesn't function correctly. You have already admitted the rifles function correctly as built. Therefore, the appearance of the gas tube in comparison to other designs is a MOOT POINT.

ar-newbie said:

This was part of the original design by Eugene Stoner himself. It's exactly how it was intended to work.

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AHAHHAHAAHA, fail.
if you think the PA10 or ANY common AR 308 has any parts interchangeability with the original Stoner design, good luck, newbie.

ar-newbie said:

I think he knew a lot more about it that you , I, or anyone else will know.

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Lol, not hard, since you apparently know literally nothing about the history of the AR10, the evolution of the AR 308 and its variations, or the original Stoner design. That was what we refer to as "stepping in it".

ar-newbie said:

Look at how far the tube is protruding into the upper, then look at the depth of the gas key. Gee, I wonder why that tube isn't going all the way in like it should? Could it be? they were being cheap and using the plentiful supply of AR15 gas tubes they already have on hand?

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Oh, so you are just as ignorant about business as you are about AR 308's.
Tell us, newbie, what exactly would PSA accomplish by abandoning their current efficient and cost effective gas tube source, and spend all the money tool up to produce a completely new part that would meet your standards?
NOTHING. LITERALLY NOTHING. The rifles will function EXACTLY THE SAME. They would be spending money for ZERO improvements.

ar-newbie said:

I am not depending solely on the poster on 308AR forum either, go and look at the recoil system information out there, and the various buffers and weights and their intended purposes. along with spring information as well. The PSA parts are thoroughly out of proper specifications.

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You know what? No. You are full of B.S., You misrepresent, you lie, and you straight up don't know what you are talking about.
So newbie, what parts, how far out of spec, and what are the specs? I'm literally scoffing at you right now because its obvious you are so clueless you are saying anything right now to try and make your point.

ar-newbie said:

As to the guy on the other forum who is making a mountain out of a mole hill, he has fixed rifles for other members at no cost to them, and they got back their rifle that worked correctly.

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So what? I mean, literally so what? What does that prove? That he can eyeball mistakes ar-newbies like yourself have made and correct them? I already told you, buffer/buffer tube compatibility isn't rocket science, no matter how hard it was for you. Taking a few builds that were too screwed up to run and correcting a few obvious issues does not a mechanical engineer make.
How many of the rifles that he "fixed" were assembled by PSA and already running reliably before he got his hands on them? I'm guessing in those cases he was less "fixing" rifles, and more "tuning" already running rifles to better suit their owners preferences.

ar-newbie said:

That is being correct by actual deed, and not forum battles. So if none of this convinces you to possibly re examine your stance on it.

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No, not particularly, for reasons explained above

ar-newbie said:

Being so hard headed about it will never lead to PSA correcting the issues, and stop the nonsense from continuing.

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I hate to break it to you, but nothing you or I are saying or doing here is going to make one iota of difference in how PSA decides to do business.

ar-newbie said:

I would much rather see them fix these issues, and start shipping great running rifles, which will lead to them continuing production, so that those of us who did get one working right, can still obtain the proprietary parts (takedown pins, magazine release and bolt catch) long into the future should the need arise.

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There are no issues other than the carrier timing. They are shipping great running rifles. They are going to continue production because in the end, the ratio of ar-newbies who mess up their builds to good running rifles is heavily on PSA's side, so I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

What a crock. You talk about how to have a conversation that benefits PSA, yet you've been completely dishonest about your experiences, and falsifying issues in order to unfairly complain about PSA. I have a suggestion about where you can shove that sanctimonious nonsense.

ar-newbie said:

I didn't know any of this before I built my rifle, and that I can freely admit. However, I did a lot of research, and still do.

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You need to tune your internet B.S. filter more than you need to tune your rifle.

ar-newbie said:

I learn by doing, which is exactly how all of us got to the point we are.

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B.S. You have a perfectly running, perfectly functioning PA10 that groups sub MOA. The majority of your time on this thread has been spent trying to convince me you have problems that you actually don't, like your gas tube. If you learned by doing, you'd know your rifle functions fine and is sub MOA accurate, two facts that should enamor you heavily towards your rifle. But you don't talk about that. You talk about internet theories about recoil systems, theories about H3 buffers being absolutely necessary, parts out of specification, basically trying to invent out of thin air any reason you can to be unhappy. That is not "doing". "Doing" is shooting and enjoying your rifle, and acknowledging that the product you received was more than satisfactory.

ar-newbie said:

I am no expert, but I am far from being stupid and deserving of the problems I did have.

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You "deserve" whatever problems you make for yourself. Those are called consequences, newbie.

ar-newbie said:

Maybe if you didn't just rush out of the gate telling me what a moron I was, this would have gone entirely a different path.

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You said it, not me. I think you should review this conversation though, before you falsely accuse me. You were the one who was censored and got the administrative warning for inappropriate language and personal attacks, not me, "Twinky". Notice a particular point at which I started responding with a little less...respect?

ar-newbie said:

I show you what, why, and how,

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No, no you didn't.

ar-newbie said:

and am rebuked with none of that matters.

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"None of that matters"?
Can you read? I've been pretty darn detailed with my replies...and unlike you, I've actually acknowledged and directly addressed your arguments, and clarified myself when you've asked.

ar-newbie said:

That is the mark of ignorance on your part.

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Ironic that you'd call anyone ignorant, newbie.

ar-newbie said:

There are several threads with a lot of test results and measurements. seriously, I sent you the link and you haven't even taken the time to look at it. it's all wrong, solely because you said so. And apparently I am an idiot because I came right and asked PSA what parts to order to build a PA10 lower, ordered said parts, and ended up with a rifle that wouldn't function had I not been thorough in assembling the lower, and finding the buffer issues. Then, after later extensively testing my rifle, my ammunition, known good rifles with said ammunition and found a big difference in timing and recoil. Then, upon looking at known good rifles built on the DPMS platform, found the gas tube is in fact shorter than it should be, and PSA is recycling a lot of ar15 specific parts to make a large frame rifle that doesn't work correctly. It works, but not at all like a good rifle will. The insulting part is that I showed you photos of the problems, but I am an idiot and you know all. I can see where this is going, and you don't have the cojones to come over and inform us of your supreme knowledge on the topic.

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You keep saying your gun recoils more than a DPMS. You also say your gas tube is too short. Then you say the PSA is overgassed. If your gas tube is too short, it would reduce, not increase, the pressure in the bolt carrier.

Recoil alone is not a valid metric without accounting for mass, muzzle brake, etc....

wow, totally expected responses. Look at the gas tube photo above, it shows the armalite tube, and the PA10 (AR15) tube one above the other. you can clearly see the difference. Enough about regurgitating. You guys are like a third grade debate session. You can pull up old quotes and spin a tale based on it. It really is all about the different height above bore. Enough with the overgas comments, it appears over gassed because of the weak recoil system.
The gas port is too small once you correct the weak recoil system. Multiple layers of crap from PSA, and you still refuse to see the light.
The gas port will ship at .070 when it should be between .080 and .085 , this will be noticeably needed once you correct the weak recoil setup.
when you fire the same ammo from a DPMS gen2 rifle, and a POF rifle, in comparison the PSA kicks a LOT more, it also is running extremely FAST, why? weak recoil system. running too fast causes all sorts of issues. What happens when you are not timed properly? FTF, FTE, damage to the brass. Granted mine hasn't had the FTE or FTF issues, but runs too fast and does cause problems with the brass. This may also be masked by my ammunition being on the higher end of the pressure range. I have not attempted to fire any of the cheaper factory ammo, only my reloads and more premium factory loads. Everyone knows the Large frame guns can be finicky about ammunition.


If I wanted to quote you and bash back, I could outline how you also changed buffer weights, and stacked quarters in the tube. So you know something was wrong, and took some steps to correct it, but don't understand the rest of it, and deny it.

You still didn't say if the gas tubes for the ar15 and the armalite tube are the same length, why does the AR15(pa10) gas tube not protrude to the correct point, while the armalite tube does? How about this, since you are into proving things, provide facts to disprove what I have said, instead of your general opinion that the rifle is totally fine as is? I have outlined very clearly what is wrong, and what needs to be done to fix it. One thing you are forgetting here, the PA10 might have some proprietary parts in the lower, but the upper is very much based on the DPMS gen II, and there are known values for port size, gas tube length etc... the PA10 doesn't match those. You can take the PSA BCG and barrel and put it on a DPMS gen II upper and it will fit just fine. So if it's a .308 winchester, and it's an 18 inch barrel, and it's a rifle length gas system, the port size PSA is using is wrong. period. Should I pull out the port size charts to demonstrate? Better yet, do you KNOW what the port size should be? Explain why 0.070 is correct? (It's not)

This argument does not seem to be resolved in the recent posts, so enough for this go-round,