...a little help with my foolish projectile purchases.

Status
Not open for further replies.
T

Typetwelve

Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2019
Messages
644
Ok...so reloading newbie here. I bought a new Dillon 550C a month or so ago and I have to day that so far, I'm loving the thing. I'm beginning loading 38 special and 44 special only. Low recoil target loads.

Ok here goes, 38 special. Running through my S&W 627 pro, I bought the following:

Oregon trail
Projectile #1
https://www.oregontrailbullet.com/shop/laser-cast/38-Cal-148g-WC-DBB-SGG-358-p104526370

#1 notes:
With a hardenss of 24, these stinkers leaded up my barrel big time behind 3-3.5 grains of Titegroup. Shot perfectly, but too hard for such low velocities. My question? Can I save these and run them in lighter 357 magnum without a gas check? If not, I'm not sure what to do with these.

Summers
Projectile #2
https://www.summersenterprisesllc.c...-cast-lead-bullets-Su-p/38-145gr-.358-800.htm

#2 notes:
I know these say 9mm, but they're not, they're .358" dia. I'll admit it, I bought these in complete ignorance and now have zero idea what to do with them. I bought them for fast reloading with a moon clip but with a hardness of 18, I am more than sure these will lead like crazy at low velocity. With no crimp groove, it's not like I can load these in .357 magnum either. I don't want to waste $44, but I have no clue what to do with these.

Projectile #3:
https://www.summersenterprisesllc.c...lets-only-hard-cast-p/hi-tek-38-148gr-500.htm

#3 Notes:
These loaded and shot perfectly, zero leading of my barrel behind 3.0 grains of titegroup. I am very pleased with these.


Moving on to 44 special, shot through my 4" S&W 629:

Summers
https://www.summersenterprisesllc.com/44-240gr-500-ct-box-hard-cast-lead-bullet-p/44-240gr-500.htm

Again...I think I made another mistake. I made some test loads with 6.0,6.5, and 7.0 grains of unique. All shot perfectly but my goodness, the leading! 30 test loads and my gun was a hot mess. I'm not going to use these for special velocities again. My questions? With a hardness of 18, can I load these to light magnum velocities with no gas check?



Moving forward? yesterday I "bit the bullet" and bought these here:

http://missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=236&category=5&secondary=9

http://missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=386&category=20&secondary=12

Coated, softer projectiles (12 hardness) that I should be able to run low and slow with no leading.


Any advice would be highly appreciated!
 
#1 - I cant offer you a lot of advise on these. honestly 24 BHN is just too hard for a wadcutter and I have no idea why they would even produce them at this hardness. these are usually around 10-12 BHN.

#2 - I agree, these will likely be too hard for lower velocity loads. if it were me, I would either hang on to them until I had an auto-loader that could use them, or trade them off to someone for something you can use.

when loading lead rounds in a revolver, it is very important to know your actual bore diameter, your cylinder throat diameter, and your bullet diameter. you should be able to push a bullet through the cylinder throat with your fingers (not much effort) on all 6 holes. the bullet should then be sized 0.001" - 0.002" larger than your measured bore diameter to ensure a good gas seal (your best bet to slug your bore so you will have an accurate measurement).

any of the coated options are almost a sure bet to remove (or at least greatly reduce) leading issues. I have used them in a few firearms for this reason.

you made a couple very good choices with Missouri Bullet Company. these will likely work well for you. before I finished reading your post I was already planning on recommending them as I have been ordering from them for around a decade now and have always had a good experience.
 
To successfully shoot lead bullets, they must fit the gun. Do you know the groove diameters and the throat diameters? A long distance diagnosis of the wadcutters is they are undersize and waaaaaay too hard (In 25+ years of casting and playing with alloys, I have never cast or shot a bullet that hard!). I have my "Magnum" alloy that runs 15-16 BHN and most of my handgun bullets are 10-12 BHN (38 Special through 45 Colt).

The .358", 9mm bullets will probably work, but you need to know what the groove diameter and throat diameter of your gun is. I have a Ruger 9mm, and 9mm barrels are supposed to be .355"-.356". but I shoot .357"+ bullets in it quite successfuly.

Again, the 44 bullets are harder than I would use and do they fit your gun? I size my revolver bullets to the same diameter as the cylinder throats, and leading is minimal to nonexistent.

The last two bullets you list will probably work because they are coated. Coating isn't a lube, but a baked on protection, acting much like a jacket.

Lead bullets need to fit the gun; same diameter as the cylinder throats and .002" larger than the groove diameter of the barrel, taking into consideration the chamber fit. Revolver cylinder throats must be bigger than the groove diameter so a bullet larger than the groove diameter will seal the barrel from hot gasses (if the throats are smaller than groove dia., the bullet will be swaged down smaller than the groove dia. and lead the barrel). In a semi-auto the bullet must be large enough to seal the gasses in the barrel, but not so large as to inhibit cartridge chambering.

Slug the barrels, measure the cylinder throats and use bullets of the appropriate diameter and no need for "iron hard" bullets, and your lead bullet shooting will improve...
 
From reading the OP it looks like all the focus was on BHN instead of getting bullets sized to fit your barrel. Very soft lead can be shot fairly fast without leading if the bullet fits the barrel and in general rock hard bullets tend to lead worse then soft bullets. Think you might want to hit up a bullet casting forum and get some general information on bullet sizing and hardness. Check out castboolits.com, there is a wealth of info about this subject already posted.
 
http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_3_alloySelectionMetallurgy.htm

Almost all "hard cast" commercial bullets are WAY too hard. Also the lube used on those bullets is way too hard. Why you might ask? Advertising and those hard bullets and lubes ship very well.

The only bullets I use "hard" lead for are the magnum bullets for my .327 Federal. Everything else gets a alloy in the 9-12 bhn range. I just put pure lead and wheel weight ingots in the pot in roughly equal weights and cast.

Bullet fit is paramount. Hi-Tek coated bullets in the right size shoot like a dream. Hi-Tek bullets that are too small can still have a leading problem but it's a lot less than an uncoated bullet of the same size.

A couple of years ago I bit the bullet and started casting my own. I'm retired and have too much time on my hands. Fiddling with bullets helps use up some of that time.
 
In the 38 Special the hardness is irrelevant when covered with Hi-Tek coating. The coating protects the lead and the barrel. As you saw in your #3 project, no leading with the coated bullets. Just be careful, not all coatings are the same. Some are no more than paint while Hi-Tek coating is extremely hard and IMO the best coating to use.

As for running those 24 BHN bullets in light .357 Magnum ammo, no, you can run them in full power .357 Magnum loads and then some. Those are extremely hard and are probably best for longer barrels like in a levergun.

Your #2 project, even though they are sized to .358'" they are still designed for the 9mm. The shape of the bullet and position of the ojive make them fit for loading in the 9mm.

Just remember, much of the time too hard a fast bullet will lead worse than a too soft bullet. The right bullet fit is usually more important than the hardness too. Once you get it figured out for your guns will will be happy with fast bullets, I'm sure of it. Coated bullets are a great change from inflated cast bullets IMO. We are lucky they are available.
 
You could try powder coating them.
It might be a fun adventure and save you the I spent money for nothing woes.
 
#2 should work OK in either 9mm (If they chamber) or .357. You might get some leading, but 9mm is a small high pressure round. I'd start with some light loads and use starting 147 grain charges and see what happens.

Have you measured the actual diameters of the other bullets or are you going off what the makers claim? I've received some bullets that were pretty far off the mark before.

I think you'll have much better luck with the coated bullets. My experiences with lubed lead bullets was similar to yours and jumped to Powder Coated bullets pretty quickly. Now I make my own and use PC for everything. There are people out there who claim lubed bullets are great, but I had leading just like you are experiencing.
 
Typetwelve said:
#1 notes:
With a hardenss of 24, these stinkers leaded up my barrel big time behind 3-3.5 grains of Titegroup. Shot perfectly, but too hard for such low velocities. My question? Can I save these and run them in lighter 357 magnum without a gas check? If not, I'm not sure what to do with these.
Click to expand...
If you're going to shoot lead, I'd suggest you try a powder that isn't running as hot as Titegroup
 
^^^^^^ This is your best option. TG runs exceptionally hot due to it's high nitro content. This powder should not be used with lead. If I recall some one reported it attached the powder coating on the base of the bullet where in contact.
 
If you have a SIG or Beretta 9mm it may have a .357" bore (mine do) and the 145 .358" would probably work great for that.
 
by the way you SURE you're getting leading and not just fouling from the lube or powder? Are you scraping it out and seeing shiny silver flakes?
 
1KPerDay said:
by the way you SURE you're getting leading and not just fouling from the lube or powder? Are you scraping it out and seeing shiny silver flakes?
Click to expand...

Yeah, it's lead. Took some time with some chore boy copper and finally got all of it out...left plenty of obvious lead on the cleaning mat.
 
I have shot a lot of Summers bullets in 45 ACP, 38 Sp, and 9mm without any leading issues. I wonder if maybe you have 2 guns with barrels that lead. I have a Ruger Super Blackhawk that I bought new in the early 1980's that has had thousands of rounds through it and it leads. The bullets fit and they still lead, but 44Sp loads are not as bad. The gun was always very accurate with jacketed bullets but only average with any lead bullet and powder combo. I later found a deal on a old model Super and it is very accurate with lead bullets with no leading using 44 Sp loads, I do not shot many magnums anymore, just a few at a time. The barrel on it is like a mirror compared to the new model.
 
Typetwelve said:
Ok...so reloading newbie here. I bought a new Dillon 550C a month or so ago and I have to day that so far, I'm loving the thing. I'm beginning loading 38 special and 44 special only. Low recoil target loads.

Ok here goes, 38 special. Running through my S&W 627 pro, I bought the following:

Oregon trail
Projectile #1
https://www.oregontrailbullet.com/shop/laser-cast/38-Cal-148g-WC-DBB-SGG-358-p104526370

#1 notes:
With a hardenss of 24, these stinkers leaded up my barrel big time behind 3-3.5 grains of Titegroup. Shot perfectly, but too hard for such low velocities. My question? Can I save these and run them in lighter 357 magnum without a gas check? If not, I'm not sure what to do with these.

Summers
Projectile #2
https://www.summersenterprisesllc.c...-cast-lead-bullets-Su-p/38-145gr-.358-800.htm

#2 notes:
I know these say 9mm, but they're not, they're .358" dia. I'll admit it, I bought these in complete ignorance and now have zero idea what to do with them. I bought them for fast reloading with a moon clip but with a hardness of 18, I am more than sure these will lead like crazy at low velocity. With no crimp groove, it's not like I can load these in .357 magnum either. I don't want to waste $44, but I have no clue what to do with these.

Projectile #3:
https://www.summersenterprisesllc.c...lets-only-hard-cast-p/hi-tek-38-148gr-500.htm

#3 Notes:
These loaded and shot perfectly, zero leading of my barrel behind 3.0 grains of titegroup. I am very pleased with these.


Moving on to 44 special, shot through my 4" S&W 629:

Summers
https://www.summersenterprisesllc.com/44-240gr-500-ct-box-hard-cast-lead-bullet-p/44-240gr-500.htm

Again...I think I made another mistake. I made some test loads with 6.0,6.5, and 7.0 grains of unique. All shot perfectly but my goodness, the leading! 30 test loads and my gun was a hot mess. I'm not going to use these for special velocities again. My questions? With a hardness of 18, can I load these to light magnum velocities with no gas check?



Moving forward? yesterday I "bit the bullet" and bought these here:

http://missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=236&category=5&secondary=9

http://missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=386&category=20&secondary=12

Coated, softer projectiles (12 hardness) that I should be able to run low and slow with no leading.


Any advice would be highly appreciated!
Click to expand...

Welcome the addiction known as re-loading :uhoh:

I have loaded wad cutters long by crimping in the middle lube groove, in 38 cases to +P and 357 low end load data, works great with coated bullets.
The bullets actually enter the cylinder throat of a 357 gun, and can't be shot in a 38 because the bullet sticks thru a 38 cylinder to not allow it to close or rotated.
A good thing, as it keeps them from being shot out of a 38 revolver...

You should consider buying some Lee push thru sizing dies, there are 3 in the 9/38 size range, 0.356"/0.357"/0.358".
I use them a lot, and they allow me to buy 0.358" dia. coated bullets for 38 and size them down for 9mm instead of buying 9mm specific bullets.
The coated bullets sold commercially are usual softer and the coating, if done correctly, will reduce or eliminate leading without the velocity of the load being critical.
You will still benefit from sizing a coated bullet to the gun but it will be for accuracy, not to reduce leading.
I cannot imagine anyone buying/shooting lubed bullets after shooting coated bullets that shoot without smoke or leaving lube smooge all over your gun and hands.
jmo
:D
 
#2 note -
FWIW, I cast a Lee 358 diameter, 125gr round flatnose (358-125-RF) that I size to .358 and use in all my 9mm pistols. At least 8 different brands and models that ican think of right off.
I don't cast them anywhere near 18 bnh, but the diameter shouldn't be off-putting.
If it'll chamber, it'll shoot.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

R
  • Locked
Lead exposure and plated projectiles
Replies
4
Views
289
rajbcpa
R
B
  • Locked
At what velocity does a Magnus #502 38 caliber wadcutter start leading a barrel?
Replies
10
Views
1K
murf
murf
WrongHanded
  • Locked
Bullet Suggestions: 357 Mag Range Load
2
Replies
32
Views
836
LaneP
LaneP
M
  • Locked
380 MK II load data? (38 S&W using 180gr bullet)
2
Replies
26
Views
1K
ArchAngelCD
ArchAngelCD
R
  • Locked
Lead Hollow Base Wadcutters in .357 mag?
Replies
6
Views
5K
Richard.Howe
R
Back
Top