Any help appreciated identifying battered revolver!

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michael s

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A coworker of mine recently handed a six shot revolver he said he found in his backyard to me and asked could I do anything with it/identify it. This poor specimen appears to be .38 caliber that at one time was nickel plated but now almost entirely covered with rust. After attempting to clean away the dirt and rust I cannot find any markings but may be identified by a couple of characteristics. The piece in question has black plastic/polymer grips with what I believe to be "Fleur de Le" emblems at the top of both grips and a latch mechanism that opens the action/cylinder behind the very smallish rear sight. I have not at this point removed the grips and am really looking to at this point to identify this pistol. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
 
I agree with Odd Job, can't think of another manufacturer with grips as you described.

Markings will be on the barrel rib, manufacturer and probably patent dates.

Thames was a trade name for H&R top breaks from the 1880s through early 20th century. If the cylinder rotates with the hammer down, it's a black powder gun, and given your description of the condition, probably best used as a wall hanger or shadow box piece.
 
Do not try to clean the gun with sandpaper, emory cloth or anything else that will scratch the gun. Submerge the gun in a rush buster type of liquid and let it soak for days and then use oil soaked 0000 steel wool and lightly rub the rust away. Don't go into the metal or any remaining finish, stop when you feel it go smooth.
 
Thank you Odd job for the quick and to the point ID. Yes those are the grips on this piece and MachIV, the hammer does now rotate after my efforts to clean and identify. What a wealth of knowledge I am in the midst of.
 
Will do ArchAngel , at this point all I have done is brush away dirt and rust and soak with CLP to freeup the action. Thank you all.
 
michael s said:
Thank you Odd job for the quick and to the point ID. Yes those are the grips on this piece and MachIV, the hammer does now rotate after my efforts to clean and identify. What a wealth of knowledge I am in the midst of.
Click to expand...

MachIV has the knowledge, I admit to getting lucky with Google!
 
If your friend FOUND this revolver in his back yard and doesn't know from where it came I would be hesitant to do much of anything to it. It was likely dumped there by someone other than the rightful owner.
 
I would use brass or bronze wool instead of steel wool. Sometimes steel wool can create more rust. You can spray down with Kroil or soak in Kroil and it does a good job of releasing the rust. Also Automatic
 
ontarget said:
If your friend FOUND this revolver in his back yard and doesn't know from where it came I would be hesitant to do much of anything to it. It was likely dumped there by someone other than the rightful owner.
Click to expand...

Even if it was, so what? Guns don't have little black boxes, have no memory of how they were used. Ballistic fingerprinting is a joke, only works in Hollyweird. I wouldn't necessarily want a Hi Point out of a Chicago dumpster, but a rusted, >century old top break revolver in a suburban back yard? Eh. Probably fell out of a rotten old box during a move, or a child found it in grandpa's closet, played with it and left it outdoors when called for supper.

OP, if you have any interest in a semi-restoration, I'm pretty familiar with these old top breaks, have rebuilt a number of them, including welding up worn frames and making brand new parts, from hands & trigger return levers with coil springs to replace flat springs, all the way to brand new aerospace alloy cylinders. Their sand cast frames and low alloy steel cylinders are often too far gone to be worth doing a nice reblue or nickle plating (not worth the cost, either), but cleaning them up and refinishing in Norrell's Moly Resin leaves them looking pretty decent.

Large frame H&R .32

IMG_3067.JPG
IMG_3082.JPG

IMG_3122.JPG

H&R .38
Before
pix264152271.jpg
After
IMG_3134.JPG


Iver-Johnson Safety Hammerless 2nd model, received a custom 17-4 H900 stainless cylinder to use smokeless ammunition

IMG_3102.JPG
 
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MachIVshooter said:
Even if it was, so what? Guns don't have little black boxes, have no memory of how they were used. Ballistic fingerprinting is a joke, only works in Hollyweird. I wouldn't necessarily want a Hi Point out of a Chicago dumpster, but a rusted, >century old top break revolver in a suburban back yard? Eh. Probably fell out of a rotten old box during a move, or a child found it in grandpa's closet, played with it and left it outdoors when called for supper.

OP, if you have any interest in a semi-restoration, I'm pretty familiar with these old top breaks, have rebuilt a number of them.

Large frame H&R .32

View attachment 830148
View attachment 830149

View attachment 830150

H&R .38
Before
View attachment 830152
AfterView attachment 830151
Click to expand...
You are probably right. I guess I didn't catch how old it was. Somewhere out on our property lies a wood rifle stock that my son was playing soldier with. Laid it down and we never saw it again. Had to buy a new stock to replace it.
 
MachIVshooter said:
Even if it was, so what? Guns don't have little black boxes, have no memory of how they were used. Ballistic fingerprinting is a joke, only works in Hollyweird. I wouldn't necessarily want a Hi Point out of a Chicago dumpster, but a rusted, >century old top break revolver in a suburban back yard? Eh. Probably fell out of a rotten old box during a move, or a child found it in grandpa's closet, played with it and left it outdoors when called for supper.

OP, if you have any interest in a semi-restoration, I'm pretty familiar with these old top breaks, have rebuilt a number of them, including welding up worn frames and making brand new parts, from hands & trigger return levers with coil springs to replace flat springs, all the way to brand new aerospace alloy cylinders. Their sand cast frames and low alloy steel cylinders are often too far gone to be worth doing a nice reblue or nickle plating (not worth the cost, either), but cleaning them up and refinishing in Norrell's Moly Resin leaves them looking pretty decent.

Large frame H&R .32

View attachment 830148
View attachment 830149

View attachment 830150

H&R .38
Before
View attachment 830152
After
View attachment 830151


Iver-Johnson Safety Hammerless 2nd model, received a custom 17-4 H900 stainless cylinder to use smokeless ammunition

View attachment 830153
Click to expand...

That's good to know... I'll have questions I'm sure when I can get around to fixing my H&R Premiere 22. It doesn't lockup very well.
 
BigBlue 94 said:
That's good to know... I'll have questions I'm sure when I can get around to fixing my H&R Premiere 22. It doesn't lockup very well.
Click to expand...

It's usually a combination of worn hand, worn ratchet and end play in the cylinder as they beat themselves into the frame at the rear. Sometimes the stop is battered, but usually not worn enough to matter. Some of these old top breaks also don't have much in the way of a forcing cone, so they tend to spit lead out of the cylinder gap.

To deal with the wear, I weld up the frame and re-machine the hand slot a touch further in toward center

index.php


index.php


That one came out a little ugly, lots of contaminates in the cast. I also did that one with standard filler, subsequently found stainless filler to work better, blend out nicer on whatever alloy these old things are made of. At any rate, by forcing the hand over a little to compensate for wear, you can make these old things lock up tighter than they did brand new

The earlier H&Rs also don't have any kind of pin in the center of the ratchet, which is why the ratchet beats on the frame. Make & press fit one to remedy that

index.php
 
My grand father carried a gun like the OP shows, except instead of a fluer d'lis, it had a target with 6 holes in it; it is a std .38. He was a postman and delivered mail on horseback at a time wken people sent money in the mail, so the mailmen had to be armed. Later delivered by car a d retired from USPS. I hated to ride with him; never hot over 30 mph.
 
PWC said:
My grand father carried a gun like the OP shows, except instead of a fluer d'lis, it had a target with 6 holes in it; it is a std .38.
Click to expand...

That's the H&R logo. 5 holes, though ;)

Of course, many of the old Iver Johnson, H&R, Meriden, U.S. Revolver, National Arms, etc. were so similar (if not identical trade name guns) that the grips interchange. I've bought Ivers with one H&R grip, National Arms with an Iver grip. Barrel rib markings are how you get a positive ID on make.
 
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