Gunsite acadamy and etc. training

Your subtext seems to be that the idea of trained shooters in the general population is something you find offensive. These elite academies are by no means the only way to learn, but for a person who comes to a sudden realization that the world can indeed be a nasty place they're a quick way to get started.

I will agree that learning to shoot a handgun however you go about it isn't a cheap proposition. I suspect there are probably more trained shooters out there now than ever before. A good indication is what you find in a used gun store. Finding high quality older handguns isn't a trick, but when you look at the guns, and the holsters in the used bin, you realize very few of them aside from those that have seen police and military service were carried much.

By associating learning to defend yourself with expensive hunting trips in Africa, you're attempting to distance these skills from the average American and make the idea of regulating them more palatable.

I've had a chance to learn a little from some of the older handgunners I consider masters. I see no more reason to apologize for this than a beginning music student should apologize for his opportunity to learn from a famous musician.

HANDLOADER said:

In a world of violence and the degeneration of morals the mere possession of a talisman or lucky trinket that some how wards off evil is a most appealing article to own, even more interesting if you are the party selling it. The concept of criminals constantly evolving to the point they become mafia quality hitmen is a notion that has evolved over the last twenty year or so and that can be seen in the marketing of such institutions. The notion is ridicules, everyone screams get training and everyone runs out to do that until the price hits them. The average American can not afford a $800 car repair bill much less 2500 plus lodging and expense, let alone the $500 dollar two day weekend courses. They are just a little better than the NRA using fear to constantly sell us on a threat that for 99% of Americans will never arrive and if it does that 1 percent will be unprepared unless your a cop then you just run away as James Yeager so famously teaches. Just look at all the mass shootings where are these "trained" and I use the term loosely individuals? A $30 dollar book from walmart and a range trio a month will get you to paper plate accuracy out to twenty yards which is the same standard these "DELUX SCHOOLS" sale you on. I understand this is a class thing much like hunting in Africa, those who go will understand all the mystery's of life and those who present objections will be looked upon poorly.

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Interesting I didn’t know that. What’s the name of that Walmart book?

I get what the OP is saying. The schools are using fear to get people to come, that seems to be everything is now days its no longer about the building of skill set so much as being tactical prepared for a narco drug lord hit squad. With that said I would love the opportunity to go to gunsite for a 250 or a rifle course. With that said at 26 with student loans, medical debt, a mortgage, and the other life happens bills it will never happen this side of 60. Dreaming though.

I'm thinking about getting some more training, though not at Gunsite. It's not because I'm afraid of anything in particular, but because I just don't shoot revolvers very well in double action. Books have helped a little, but I think I need somebody knowledgeable to watch me and see where I'm going wrong. I'm hoping Grant Cunningham does something in AZ this year.

HANDLOADER said:

A $30 dollar book from walmart and a range trio a month will get you to paper plate accuracy out to twenty yards which is the same standard these "DELUX SCHOOLS" sale you on.

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No it won't...
Muscle memory comes from thousands upon thousands of repetitive motions. You're not going to get to far shooting a couple times a month and a book that doesn't tell you what YOU are doing wrong. Without the proper fundamentals you will never move forward. Anyone can pick up a gun and put a bullet down range. Not every one can run clean 2 second Bill Drill.
No it doesn't need to be the latest tacticool class or Competition class. However, your shooting needs to be evaluated from an outside perspective as bad habits are hard to unlearn.

A similar thread a couple months back ended poorly. If people think places like Gunsite will help them be more proficient with thier firearm and want to attend, I think that's great. I'm not going to knock it cause of thier marketing or price or because I have zero desire to attend.

All the training I need I can do on my own with just a book and be “good enough”? Maybe. Depends on the task.

Can I just use a Nerf gun instead of a firearm? Then I won’t have to put on pants and go outside.

In all seriousness, I wouldn’t trade my professional education or training in any field for self-learning. The skill levels exhibited by professionals versus amateurs speaks for itself.

Mn Fats said:

A similar thread a couple months back ended poorly.

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This one started poorly.

It's evident the OP is criticizing the concept of Gunsite that he has in his head rather than the actual training schools that he has never been to and does not know anything about. I wouldn't say that one has to pay to attend to criticize a school, but it a criticism would have some merit if it was at least the slightest bit informed. His post does not indicate the slightest knowledge of these schools.

That "other" thread discussed two things, the merit of these schools and elitism within the gun community that could use training as a barrier to admission among the elite. I detected strong support for the right of people to own guns regardless of whether those people met the criteria of the elitists in the gun community. Some people strongly promote training as a means of acquiring competence and benefiting oneself. Others, undoubtedly a smaller portion, use training and performance criteria as a way to distinguish themselves by shunning the ignorant and erecting barriers to keep out those with fewer resources. But that same thread also identified how some people balk at and even inflate the cost of training as a way to excuse themselves from it even though nobody is obligating them to do it. They just need to self-justify. Most likely they are justifying to themselves spending more on additional guns even though they don't shoot the ones they have very well. They certainly don't need to justify that to me. I could totally appreciate a collection of swords regardless of whether I had the least bit of skill to use them.

But your interest in this book HANDLOADER, and self-training indicates you are concerned with some level of skill. I'm not sure why you felt the need to bash a school you've never been to. I've never been to Gunsite either, but I never saw much evidence they strongly promoted their training through fear. Jeff Cooper was a competition shooter and his whole Modern Method that Gunsite teaches is all based on the competitive shooting that evolved into IPSC. It has been adapted and adopted for police and civilian self-defense, but it is competitive shooting techniques. Gunsite promotes their main 250 class with the following text, "You will be well grounded in the ‘Modern Technique of the Pistol’, including marksmanship, gun handling and mindset. Through our systematic methodology you will achieve confidence, competence, new skills and best of all, peace of mind." I don't see fear-mongering there. Their promotional text goes on to read, "Many lifelong friendships are formed with fellow students and instructors during this life changing week." It sounds like they're promoting a good time with new friends. If their claim is true, I hope you get to go some day.

I don't find Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, Sig Academy or others to be excessively priced. Gunsite and Thunder Ranch for example are roughly $350 per day. The nearest indoor range with the tight little shooting lanes does training at $225 per day. So the much nicer facilities come at a $125/day premium. That's not much more than an appropriate tip for someone providing good service for an entire day. There is no shame in not affording to pay for the use of a nice facility and for good teachers, but if your income is low then you will appreciate that someone who is doing a good job or offering the use of nice equipment or facilities deserves to be paid well. If you're just being stingy, expect to continue to be treated in kind.

The main reason I haven't been to one of these out-of-state schools is not the money, but because I find it hard to put everything else on hold for 3, 4 or 5 days plus days traveling on each end. One day local classes are easier to make time for, but they lack the popularity to go beyond the basics. I'd like to do things like FOF training inside cars, but trainers can't start students there when not all the students can even draw their gun from an open holster on a firing line. The number of students locally that will get past the "101" class and come back for "102" isn't even enough to form a class more than once or twice a year and by "103" there's nobody left. That's why these schools that aggregate students from around the country are worthwhile. You might think that Weaver stance from a firing line at an indoor range is enough to prepare you for a carjacking attempt, but I don't think shooting from inside a car or FOF training has to be elite commando stuff. But it certainly isn't beginner stuff for the people with the level of skill I saw in my CCW class, but it is practical for them should they be willing to develop their skills more. Unfortunately, they're not willing and that's why I would travel out of state. It's not so much for the 101 class, but for the classes that come later. I do share a concern about some of these classes being "off mission" for self-defenders, but they will grow in relevance where there is demand.

I just watched this video on how to do a root canal, well most of it anyway.
You folks can PM me for appointments starting Monday. It will be cheaper than going to an oral surgeon and I'm gonna soak my drill bits in alcohol all weekend. The money you save may be enough to get your car fixed and I know a guy that read a book about cars once.
I don't have any Novocain but I can play some videos of African safaris to take your mind off the pain. Another option would be James Yeager videos which would make the root canal pain mild in comparison.
(My sarcasm souldn't be missed this time)

Fine Figure of a Man said:

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This one started poorly.

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Well OP says they use fear to sell thier class. Where? If anything it's keyboard commandos stating your grossly under prepared if you don't attend Gunsite or the like.

Then labels it a "class thing" equating it to a hunt in Africa. Plenty of average joes out there have to budget for a year or more to go on an African hunt or to a training facility. It's thier money/time so who cares. More power to 'em imo.

HANDLOADER said:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Brand-New-...al-Protection-and-Free-Shipping-/161305378321

My walmart has it for around that $30 dollar price, I got mine on sale for 14.99 when it first came out. Excellent read and the author addresses the average American on a fixed low income and thanks to ebay you can get it for $8 dollars only. What s deal

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Where do you think the author of that book got much of his training techniques? Mann has a solid background to teach from, but when it comes to teaching specific skills, I suspect he took heed of the classes he himself attended...

http://soldiersystems.net/2018/03/20/richard-mann-joins-panteaos-cadre-of-instructors/

"Richard is also a multiple graduate of Gunsite Academy."

The saying “you don’t know what you don’t know” seems to apply here.

I attended the Feb 22nd four-day defensive pistol class at Front Sight in Pahrump, NV. I am a retired LEO firearms instructor and found the introductory course substantially the same as those I designed and instructed for new law enforcement officers, I.e., basics and then building upon the skills to realize competency with a pistol in deadly force scenarios. Forty shooters took the course and I couldn't help but notice the sudden increase in skills resulting from instructional guidance and repetition. The final day tested the shooters with timed fire at 3, 5, 7, 10, and 15 yards. Most of the participants were able to master the timed fire of 1.9 seconds from a draw with two rounds to the thoratic cavity at the three yard line. As the line moved back the time increased, but even at 15 yards the time limit was 3 seconds for two rounds to the thoratic cavity from a concealed draw!

Training was delivered in a very positive manner without traditional "boot camp" yelling and belittling. Instructors maintained a very safe environment while giving the students confidence and initiative to achieve the goals of the training which required eight hundred rounds.

This is an into course and you can be enrolled for approximately $200. Ordinarily, it would cost $500 a day but front sight is offering it at this remarkably low introductory price. Go to Frontsight.com and check out their course offerings.

I took the course as a refresher, I'm 70 and still carry daily. I' m required to qualify yearly with my department to maintain my national permit to carry as a retired LEO and this course really brought back the speed and accuracy needed to survive a deadly force encounter. It exceeded my annual qualification.

Old age has slowed me because I could not get the three yard time of 1.9 seconds. The best I could do was 2.1 seconds from a concealed draw. More practice needed. That is what this topic is about.....preparation for the unlikely possibility you will have to employ deadly force. Normative experience will not meet your minimum requirements of survival. Only empirical experience, training, and practice will let you survive your first fire fight.

Some of us gave up years of our civilian lives to get the kind of training that Gunsite and such programs offer. Not everyone can do that, nor need to know how to kick doors and some of the other things not usually germaine to armed self-defense. So such classes do have value, even for those who have had such training, as a refresher or update on techniques.

I also doubt many of Gunsite's graduates were fearful folk before enrolling,and certainly not after.

Handloader, I did the 250 and 499 classes at Gunsite years ago. I didn't go because Gunsite or the NRA created fear in me, or because I thought I could become a one man army. But because Gunsite had a good reputation, I thought I could become more skilled with a handgun, I could afford it, and thought I'd enjoy attending with some friends. I was right in all respects. My skill level did increase due to the training received in both classes, but I never attained one man army level. The shooters I saw improve the most, were the ones with little firearms experience, who were attending the 250 class. At the end of 5 1/2 days, their skill had markedly improved. So much so, that you'd almost have to have been there to believe it.

Anyway, While I understand your position on the topic, I respectfully disagree. But I might buy that book anyway

My personal opinion is that I don't think the majority of shooters care about what happens at Gunsite or any other training facility. I know I don't and I have several friends that I go to a range at least once a week and I know they don't care about these training facilities. I do have a range friend that attended the Blackwater school in Virginia over a long weekend many years ago and he told me that they worked the crap out of the trainees. He leaned a lot but he worked his butt off. I think it comes down to finances and what you can afford AND what skills you want to achieve in your training. If, like my friend, one wants to go to a training facility be prepared to work your butt off because that's the reality, anything else is fantasy.

My opinion on this is yes, there is starting to be a little bit of a class difference between shooters nowdays. The two classes being:
"I like to shoot casually and to relax, but nevertheless have enough ammo in stock in case something happens"
VS:
" I spent $4000 dollars on this AR and Glock, and went to this gun academy for two weeks who trained me in all this tactical stuff. If you don't do the same then you're a irresposible gun owner and a FUDD!!"

I am more of the former. Yes practicing and training with your pistol is important, and I still agree you should train regularly even if it's just once a month, once every two months. Even just twice a year is better than buying one pistol , loading it then keeping it inside the drawer for the rest of your life. But still even that is better than having nothing.
But I think if you're going to convert your entire life and schedule around tactical training and being a combatant skilled person (and you don't do it sport , but because you're serious) then I think you might as well become a soldier or police officer if that stuff is so important for you. What is your time worth? A little of your time is worth a little training, even rough training, so when times get hard you'll fight easily. But spending alot of your time professionally training for a situation that is more rare than a policeman who doesn't like donuts, I think there is a greater reason in your heart why you are doing this that you haven't realized yet.
But I might be wrong. I just find it hard to take seriously the people who are still overweight, still playing video games but yet spend hundreds on professional training when it would be far easier if they just trained themselves for the same exact type of skills, for no cost.

There is a lunatic fringe in every pursuit and they tend to be loud.