Reflex sights for hunting?

Choctaw said:

I'm a felony entry team member and none of us uses a low-power scope. We all use red dots because of fast target acquisition. Also, I am very, very capable with iron sights. I shoot at the master level with revolver, pistol, rifle and shotgun. I work in a very intense, very stressful environment. I'm not talking about plinking at the range with the boys. Not everyone is going to do things the way you do.

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OK.

There’s a whole bunch of dudes in the various SOCOM units that have been running around shooting baddies in the face on the regular, who are going to low power variables with daylight bright illumination of the center reticle. Witness the adoption of the Nightforce ATACR 1-8X24, before that the Vortex Razor HD 1-6X24 was seeing some use (SOCOM’s use of that optic is what got Bill Geissele into making scope mounts). Given the past 18 years of GWOT going on it’s a pretty good bet that a lot of these dudes have stacked up a lot of bodies, and might know a thing or two about killing people with firearms and they seem to be heading in the direction of variable low power optics for their daylight sights. Not saying RDS’s are bad, just that good LPV’s have come a long long way.

My own experience in combat is far more limited, but even fixed magnified optics didn’t get me killed. My only current options to compare between an RDS and LPV are a beat up old Aimpoint and a Nightforce 1-4X24 NXS. Up close the RDS is faster, at 25 yards they’re about the same, but once distances go past 50 yards on a difficult or obscured target, or 100 yards and beyond on any target the LPV puts the boots to the RDS.

Plus the LPV can be useful in positive target ID. I have a little time on the Vortex Razor HD 1-6X24 and the eye box on 1X is so good that I actually think it might just as fast as an RDS, it’s stupid heavy though. None of the LPV’s on a carbine will ever handle as well as the same carbine with an RDS.

Anecdotally the last time I shot head to head with other good shooters in a training environment was a Pat MacNamara class and I ran the 1-4X24 NXS. Came in 2nd on the rifle challenge, and got edged out by a good shooter running that Vortex 1-6X24. We left the RDS equipped students in the dust. Pat Mac showed us all up with his Aimpoint, but he designed the course of fire, pretty sure he’d have been faster than us chucking spears at the targets too, but he’s also a freak of nature.

Coal Dragger said:

OK.

There’s a whole bunch of dudes in the various SOCOM units that have been running around shooting baddies in the face on the regular, who are going to low power variables with daylight bright illumination of the center reticle. Witness the adoption of the Nightforce ATACR 1-8X24, before that the Vortex Razor HD 1-6X24 was seeing some use (SOCOM’s use of that optic is what got Bill Geissele into making scope mounts). Given the past 18 years of GWOT going on it’s a pretty good bet that a lot of these dudes have stacked up a lot of bodies, and might know a thing or two about killing people with firearms and they seem to be heading in the direction of variable low power optics for their daylight sights. Not saying RDS’s are bad, just that good LPV’s have come a long long way.

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Oh heck no, there isn't anything wrong with LPVs. Just for my circumstances the reflex sights work great. My place is very, very brushy and the longest shot I would have is 177 yards. I have yet to take that shot though. Many of my hog kills have been at less than 30 yards in brush. The dots sing in that kind of environment.

shoobe01 said:

Red dots are a tiny bit of magic.

Remember the various times the Army (or DOD generally) has had big competitions to try to get the next big thing in small arms? Why did they do nothing with say the ACR program? Well, they did things. They found that optical and electro-optical sighting systems were great. Superior to any iron sights, even some new cool ideas like sight ribs in conjunction with irons.

So superior, that the baseline rifle (M16) with an RDS (at close ranges) and a low power scope (at longer ranges) achieved essentially all their goals for time on target, increase in hit rate, improvements of effectiveness of fire, etc. For both tyros and experienced shooters. IIRC, they didn't just toss guys with marksman badges into the course, but had AMU guys run it. Same improvements. No need to change bullets, guns, cartridge, add burst fire, or any other clever tricks.

So following this: the CCO (M68, mostly Aimpoint Comps) and the ... I forget the generic name, but TA-01 ACOG 4x. Army got mostly CCOs on (eventually) a common fleet of M4s, and a few ACOGs, USMC took almost all ACOGs as they stuck with the M16 for a long time, to keep their goals of accurate longer range fire.

Sure, other things are important as well, but more than almost anything else: better sights are better.

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Agreed.

An RDS is an awesome sight when range is limited and speed is a requirement. Extremely rare to see irons at either a 3Gun match or a carbine class these days (other than the Heavy Metal guys). Before I retired we transitioned to the aimpoints and watched the qualification score go up. By far easier and faster than irons.

I prefer a LPV though, for hunting and 3GUN. I find with practice I'm no slower than I am with a RDS and the magnification comes in handy for the longer shots.

I have the Burris Fastfire 3 on my G19 and a similarly-sized red dot on my Extar EP-9.

My only trepidation in recommending the Burris for a hunting rifle is the tiny field of view. Works fine for pistols and within 25yds, but for longer shots in the woods, maybe something with a larger viewing area would be better..I'm looking at switching up the red dot on the Extar to a larger sight with greater field of view.

Another option is the low power scope with a lighted reticle...

$200... https://www.amazon.com/Vortex-Cross...xt-20&linkId=f017f23a0360c9282280f9e01a3099eb

wanderinwalker said:

...dots simply don't work for some people's eyes. A lot of folks with astigmatism or other vision issues report dots appearing as all kinds of shapes except round circles. I see a slight coma. My brother sees a cluster of grapes. Others see multiple aiming points...

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I have like the worst eyes possible. That chart you get from the eye doc with what correction to get glasses made in? Mine has numbers in every box. I am ineligible for laser eye surgery, as I'd wear basically the same glasses to correct for my other weird issues. I did Aimpoint for a while, but eventually degraded till they didn't work, then went through a solid dozen models of sight before I found one that works well with my eyes, and is meets other specs (battery, glare, rugged...) for my needs. Have five of the same model now spread around my guns.

Not all RDSs are built the same so check.

Most people who get starburst, etc can still shoot very well once they are used to it, and learn to just ignore it; the center of the blob/comma/star is good enough by far for most purposes.

If it's your money, go find one that works for you though. Totally possible.

Choctaw said:

Oh heck no, there isn't anything wrong with LPVs. Just for my circumstances the reflex sights work great. My place is very, very brushy and the longest shot I would have is 177 yards. I have yet to take that shot though. Many of my hog kills have been at less than 30 yards in brush. The dots sing in that kind of environment.

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Right on man. I live where it’s pretty open, my local range goes out to 800 yards. For fun I use my Knight’s Armament SR-15 or other AR’s to bust rocks out in the 400-600 yard area. Just get a laser reading on them and hold on the BDC in the Nightforce and make a wind call. I decided to test how good the BDC is, a lot of people don’t trust them or think they’re a gimmick.

Last time out I was rewarded with first round hits at 443 yards for my first rock, and 552 yards on my second one. Range finder helps a lot, and so does a BDC with wind holds on all the BDC stadia lines which the NXS 1-4X24 has on the FC-3G reticle. It flat out works, just zero at 200 yards, then confirm your drops. With 5.56mm and the height above bore of an AR platform the 200 yard zero gives an almost perfect coincidence zero at 50 yards. Inside 50 yards the bullet is going to impact below POA, dead on at 50 yards, about 1.5” high at 100 yards, dead on at 200 yards. After that use the BDC tree. Gives a realistic 0-600 yard optic for a 5.56mm carbine, without any real compromises if we’re talking about general purpose shooting at IPSC sized targets.

Most manufacturers screw up the BDC on LPV’s and include no wind holds on the reticle, making the reticle much less capable. Nightforce does a good job with the 1-4X24 NXS, a lousy job with the NX8 1-8X24 (probably to protect ATACR sales), and a great job on the 1-8X24 ATACR (I want one in the worst way). Leupold also has a killer BDC in the CMR-W reticle in the MK6 1-6X20, and D-EVO. Swarovski has the BRX/BRH and it’s pretty good although I’m not sure how durable their 1-6 and 1-8 LPV’s are. Everyone else gets it wrong and gives the shooter no wind holds in LPV’s that I’ve seen, maybe there are some out there I’m unaware of that get it right.

My biggest gripe when the USMC adopted the ACOG was the lack of windage holds, and the not user friendly adjustments of the windage turret on the ACOG.... it is not made to be dialed a lot. Frustrating to get in a solid prone position and have to Kentucky windage it up at the 500M line because you cannot realistically dial the windage turret, and you have no wind holds on the reticle to reference on the BDC. I’m told that someone got Trijicon to make an run of ACOG’s with a special reticle with wind holds, that would be a nice little optic if a guy didn’t want or need a 1X capability.

Coal Dragger, I would love to be able to shoot at some of those distances you mentioned...of course I would have to upgrade a little, well, a lot. lol

I was messing around w a Contender and slapped an Aimpoint clone on it.
30mm I like better than the minis.
This was .223 and the 3 MOA dot was too big (barrel shot great).
Def would have preferred a 4X fixed on it.

However, I slapped that optic on a .35 rem bbl, for possible deer hunting and it was GREAT.
Looked funky but made offhand shooting a piece of cake.

Here it is when on the .223 bbl. Kinda weird looking.
But anybody wanting to handgun hunt, might wanna give a RDS a shot (not pun intended).

I like em just fine.

View attachment 831083

Now like I said........I like the RDS on the TC.
And sometimes an EER scope.

But..................I have a hankering for a Ruger Super Redhawk and want to put a Burris Fastfire at fwd ring slot.
Pops had one w Burris EER and I hated it.
Took it off and popped a buck out yonder iron sights.

My eyes have gotten worse.
Revolver hunting..............I wanna go reflex.

Not all reflex optics are equal, dot size, intended target and range are all factors, same can be said for magnified optics too.

Some can be quick to acquire but obstruct small targets at distances.



A smaller dot can get you better results at that point but are not as fast to acquire.



Still nothing like magnified optics but target acquisition gets even worse at that point.



If I am going hunting in an offensive way I have all the time in the world to pick out what I might need. For hunting in a defensive way I prefer the simplest of optics like the ACOG reflex, no buttons, switches, adjustments or batteries, always self adjusts to ambient light conditions and doesn’t loose zero.

I don’t use it for much anything else but when the motion sensors go off and you’ve got seconds to grab a gun and shoot, it’s a good one.

Choctaw said:

Coal Dragger, I would love to be able to shoot at some of those distances you mentioned...of course I would have to upgrade a little, well, a lot. lol

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You’d be surprised at how little you’d really have to upgrade equipment to get good hits.

Biggest multiplier in hitting stuff out past 200 yards is a good rangefinder. As long as your optics or iron sights have consistent adjustments and track right you can always just dial the scope for elevation and then adjust wind holds based on splash if you get it wrong. I don’t always get it right on wind calls, and that is one reason I am adamant about having a reference on the BDC stadia lines for wind holds.

Otherwise a decent barrel, good ammo, and a user friendly trigger is about all you need. I’m doing most of this work with a duty grade (albeit very refined) carbine with a 16” cold hammer forged chrome lined barrel that is fairly lightweight in contour, it is free floated, and I am running the standard Knight’s Armament 2 stage trigger which is very nice. Ammo is a 69gr SMK reload over CFE223, or Hornady 75gr Steel Match, or their 75gr Superformance load. They all shoot pretty close to each other at 200 yards, so it doesn’t take long to change the zero and start plinking rocks. Just have to figure out the difference in drop, the 69gr load and the Steel Match track about the same, the Superformance stuff shoots a bit flatter. Wish it wasn’t so expensive, because it shoots very well in all of my AR’s with 1/7” twist barrels.

Hookeye said:

I was messing around w a Contender and slapped an Aimpoint clone on it.
30mm I like better than the minis.
This was .223 and the 3 MOA dot was too big (barrel shot great).
Def would have preferred a 4X fixed on it.

However, I slapped that optic on a .35 rem bbl, for possible deer hunting and it was GREAT.
Looked funky but made offhand shooting a piece of cake.

Here it is when on the .223 bbl. Kinda weird looking.
But anybody wanting to handgun hunt, might wanna give a RDS a shot (not pun intended).

I like em just fine.

View attachment 831083

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I like a red dot on a revolver, I mounted a Trijicon RMR 01 to my Freedom Arms .454 and it works great.

I love the Fastfire 3 on my 1911. I wouldn't use one on a hunting rifle though... that red dot dancing all over the place is going to spook the game.

I love the Fastfire 3 on my 1911. I wouldn't use one on a hunting rifle though... that red dot dancing all over the place is going to spook the game.

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Only the ones behind you, close enough to see the LED’s reflection in the glass. It’s not like a laser, projected down range. FWIW that doesn’t spook game either. House cats will chase them around though.

The only time I like a dot sight is on a handgun or a 22 for frog gigging.
The rest of the time I prefer a 2-7x scope if I'm hunting inside 200 yds.
Most lever actions have a stock designed for iron sights. If you go with a dot sight or scope, I would look into a small cheek riser of some sort.
If you get a low power scope, be sure it has good eye relief.
Practice shouldering the unloaded gun while trying to get on target. A few half hour sessions will go a long way. This can be done in you home and is free.

Don’t overlook using a peep sight on your 450. I put a skinner sight on my Henry and it is much quicker and easier to use while deer hunting than the buck horns that came on it. If you remove the aperture you have a ghost ring, which is perfect for quick shots.

How well can a holographic hold up. I put this one on when the rifle was new a number of years ago.



Yes, that is a 45-70.

I find the Cmore a bit more difficult to zero than others but I do like the ability to change the dot size.

That said I have had outstanding results out of the $25 BSA reddot on a fairly punishing application.



Eats batteries like a kid eats candy but it takes a licking and is by far the cheapest one I have.