What's your opinion on cast lead hollowpoints?

Several things come to mind every time I see a tread like this 1. It isn't rocket science by a long shot, but you'll also reap what your sow. Garbage in/garbage out or break hp's down and what you actually want them to do step by step. 2 main things to keep in mind are that all bullets are not created equal. But as a general statement cast bullets vs jacketed bullets of the same weight/load, the cast bullet will have the higher velocity. If the cast bullet doesn't, you're either doing something wrong or it's an extremely bad bullet design. The other thing to keep in mind is that the bullet mfg's have sold everyone on the idea that a hp bullet has to have that "perfect" look/expansion/weight retention to them while going x amount of penetration in gel.

Myself I like to test in wetpack. Wetpack ='s 9"/10"/11"/12" bundles of newspaper that are taped together & put in a 32qt cooler. The cooler is then filled with water and left to sit overnight adding more water as needed. The next day the cooler is taken to the range and the bundles are setup with a target on them at whatever distance your want and bullets are tested in them. It's been said that 1" of wetpack ='s 1 1/2" of gel. Don't know if it's true or not but it's pretty close when I tested known factory ammo in wetpack and compared the results to sights like luckygunner.

Alloy:
A link to a 1953/66 year old American rifleman article on testing hp bullet expansion in the 44spl.
http://www.goodrichfamilyassoc.org/44_Special_Articles/44 spl - may 1953 american rifleman.pdf
The caliber isn't important, the cut-a-way picture of the shapes of the hp's and the alloys vs velocities tested are.
40 to 1 ='s 8bhn
30 to 1 ='s 9bhn
20 to 1 ='s 10bhn
16 to 1 ='s 11bhn
10 to 1 ='s 12bhn

Typically I start with a simple formula for testing alloy/hp combo's
800fps ='s 8bhn
900fps ='s 9bhn
1000fps ='s 10bhn
ETC
The alloy can overlap meaning a 8bhn hp bullet could used in a 1000fps load. That's where the hp depth/design comes into play. I've showed this picture before, it's recovered bullets fired from a 308w. Was testing alloys for hunting. As you can see too hard of an alloy and the bullets shattered. The 2300fps bullet bent & was the best alloy I could come up with for the 308w. Anything over 2300fps & the alloy the alloy wouldn't hold the pressure/riflings/rpms.


While not perfect testing alloys with pencils is actually pretty close when checking the bhn. A simple set of artists pencils (+/-$8) will work. Cut the wood back exposing the full diamet of the lead in the pencil for around 1/2". Take a piece of sandpaper and hold the pencil 90* to it and square the end of the pencil lead/flat. Do that to all the pencils and then when you want to test an alloy hold the pencil @ 45* to the bullet/alloy being testing and try to scrape/gouge the alloy. If you can't grab the next hardness of pencil and re-test.


When making cast hp bullets, the alloy is the easy part.

Not all hp's are created equal, same cast bullet with 3 different styles/depths of hp's.

Different cast & swaged hp's for the 38spl & 357mag's.


Typically the lyman and h&g hp pins are .1" for the 30cal's/.125" for the 35cal's & 9mm/140" for the 40/44/45cal's?.156" for the 44/45cal's. They are strait walled and rounded on the ends of the pins.Decades ago you could special order different sized hp pins for the lyman molds. I tested 3 different hp pin sizes/depths for the bullet pictured above (top right) that has a factory .156" hp pin.


The bullet (bottom center) of the 35cal hp's is a cramer "hunter" bullet that was designed in the 40's specifically for the 357mag. You can see it has the smallest hp of the 8 bullets pictured above. Large hp ='s low velocity, small hp ='s high velocity. Cramer hp's tend to have tapered hp pins. But they also put steps on them for high performance low velocity hp bullets like the 35cal hp pictured above (top row/4th from left). That's a cramer #26 that's is designed extremely well for the snubnosed 38spl's. It has a huge hp that stepped along with a large bottom drive band that gets higher velocities for the same load when compared to other 35cal hp's. A picture of the cramer #26 mold.


Just because you have a hp doesn't mean it's the right hp bullet/design for the application you're trying to use it for. Of those 8 35cal hp's pictured above I'd only use that cramer hunter hp for 357mag loads doing 1200fps+ and wouldn't bother with a hp at all when over 1400fps. The other thing to keep in mind is what the velocity of the hp is going to be @ impact. Hence a 1600fps+ load @ 10ft from the muzzle will be in the +/- 1300fps range @ 100yds.

Anyway, you choose the wrong alloy & a cast hp will fail. Choose the right alloy and the wrong hp design & a cast hp will fail.

So you pick out an alloy & a hp mold and cast some bullets up. Time to start testing. Some use gel, others water, myself I like to use wetpack. It a little harder on alloys along with it's easy to cover with leather/denim/bones inside/bones then hollow spaces/etc.

The 1st thing I do is test loads for accuracy and manageability. This is where a good bullet design is HUGE!!!! I was working up hp loads for the misses snubnosed 38spl. Of those 8 35cal hp's pictured in the post above these 4 gave the highest velocities consistently.

What they have in common is the huge bottom drive band/gc/long jacketed body that seals the cylinders/bore faster which in turn ='s higher velocities for the same load. Those bullets did a much as 40fps+ compared to other bullets. That doesn't sound like much but when you're using a lite weight snubnosed revolver, the difference between 800fps & 850fps is huge. Along with the ability to use a lesser/lower recoiled load with those faster bullets to = the slower bullets ='s less recoil/more control.

Once you've established your load it's time to test the hp for expansion/penetration. That's the easy part & myself, I like to push the alloy/hp until it starts to fail in wetpack. Full expansion & excellent weight retention from a cast mihec hp, the 359-129gr fn hp that casts large round hp's and penta point hp's. Got 9"+ penetration in wetpack with a 1050fps load using +/-9bhn alloy in a 3.2" bbl'd compact 9mm.

Testing hp's in a snubnosed 44spl. Was really interested in the top right bullet. The bottom left is a h&g copy of the lyman 429215 Thompson design that has always performed extremely will @ +/- 1000fps using +/- 9bhn alloy. The top left bullet was also +/- 9bhn, the top right shattered & was 14bhn. The bottom right was 15bhn and didn't open but went thru 11"'s of wetpack. The other 3 were at the 8" mark in the wetpack


You should keep in mind that you don't have to have the picture perfect hp expansion/weight retension/penetration. These 130gr hp's for the 30cal's (308w) will not make it thru 7" of wetpack with their huge hp


But cast them out of a hard alloy (+/-16bhn) and run them in the 1800fps range for short range (100yds or less) work & they become pretty impressive. Same bullet hitting wetpack @ 50yds with that 1800fps load. The hole you see in that wetpack went back 5" into the bundle and there was nothing left but the holes.


Perfect expansion? no
Perfect weight retention? no only found the gas checked base of the bullet
Perfect penetration (12")? no

But those 30cal hp's left fist sized holes in the 10+ critters I shot with them that you could put a baseball in.

More cast hp's to test. I've had the 432-640 mold (bullet on right) for 7/8 years now and never really did anything with it. It a 260gr hp and should do extremely well in the +/- 1100fps range. I plan on making up and testing loads in a 4" bll'd 29 for that bullet.The bullet on the left has 2 different hp designs. The huge round/deep hp is for 800fps to 1000fps loads (snubnosed 44spl) and the shallow cupped hp is for loads up to 1800fps in the 10" bbl'd contender.


A lot goes into a cast hp & those that fail typically use the wrong hp/hp design for what they're trying to do. Most casters understand alloy's and those that don't will figure it out real fast.

Jacketed hp's have their own quirks also, namely the hp size/shape/depth just like their cast hp cousins. I started swaging my own lead and jacketed bullets back in 1990(?). 223rem bullets made from 22lr cases. The hp's are devastating and if I want to make fmj's all's I have to fo is turn the core filled 22lr case around and run them upin a home made swaging die.


Playing around with swaged jacketed bullets for the 38spl's/357's.


I made the jacketed hp a huge hp with long deep pleats in the xtp style nose for expansion when used in snubnosed 38spl's. I took a hp forming die and offsetangled to 1 side & the hp in those 150gr hp's pictured above and loaded them up with some hot 357 loads. Doing this upset the yawl of the bullet which stopped the over penetration. I shot them into wetpack @ 50ft and those bullets exploded making huge holes but only did +/- 7" of penetration. Some 225gr hp's for the 45acp. I wanted these bullets to implode also so I make the 200gr core out of 15bhn alloy.


There was only a couple pieces of the cores to recover in the wetpack shot @ 50ft. 3 of the bullets stopped just shy of the back of the bundle of wetpack 2 went out the back (holes in the blue picture on the wetpack)


Making testing hp for the 44mag. Wanted a hunting bullet so I started testing/making hp's. Ended up testing 4 or 5 different alloys along with changing the hp design & pleat size to get it right


Had to bond the cores to get the bullet to stay intact.


The finished bullet testing loads that would simulate +/- 75yd hits on deer.


There's a lot of thought that goes into jacketed hp's also. The user still has to pick a bullet with the right jacket/alloy/hp size for their application.

Another excellent tool for making hp'sin jacketed or cast bullets is the forster hp tool. You can make different size/depth/shaped hp's in almost any bullet. I made this hp in the 429422 hollow based swc using a forester hp tool and a 60* 9/64th's center drill


There is no easy answer but then again it's extremely easy to make a hp bullet.

AR-Bossman said:

Most guys doing gel tests are super excited when they get one to finally expand. Compared to a factory made jacketed HP that knocks the piss outta the gel or whatever they are shooting. . .

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I daresay, if you tried to make your own JHP, you'd be super excited when you got one to expand.

Commercial bulletmaking didn't move from cast to jacketed by accident; it did so because jacketing produces better (better/cheaper/faster) bullets. We make and use cast bullets today for the same reason gearheads still tune carbureted engines; for satisfaction and versatility, not absolute performance.

Alloy is critical when discussing cast bullets and expansion.
Alloy must be adjusted to specific application. A rifle bullet intended for big game hunting needs a different alloy than a low velocity pistol load (ie: .38Spl)

Because of the aggravation involved with casting hollow points, I seldom bother with them. When I want/need a hollow point bullet, I drill them.

I have at present about a ton of lead on hand ranging from dead soft pure lead to a 5+gal bucket of Linotype. I seldom use it straight. At present rate of consumption, it’s more than a lifetime supply.

Now with the advent of powder coating, even a dead soft lead alloy can be shot from a magnum handgun without leading. Largely negates need for a hollow point. Last pig I shot, was with a 4”bbl Ruger Sec-6 using the Lee 158gr SWC-GC (164gr) over 14.5gr of #2400 for 1,300fps. Bullet was fired into skull of ~175lb pig at distance of about 20yds (under my ladder stand). Bullet was recovered from skin under his chin. Perfect expansion to .70”, 95% weight retention, (lost gas check). Alloy was 50/50 wheel weights and range scrap.

No need to over think it...

HP lead bullets sure are awesome looking and I have a of HP molds that produce some nice bullets, however HP molds are more expensive and casting with them does take longer. I'd buy a couple of regular molds and get the whole casting process down before trying buying some HP molds.

I've got over a dozen hollow point molds. The only pistol caliber I don't have a hollow point mold for is my .327 Federal Mag.

I've got a Lyman Devastator mold for my .45 ACP and that sucker opens up RFN. It's designed for wheel weight alloy. Many older designs were made for 20-1 alloy.

A quality hollow point mold isn't all that expensive....unless you're used to two cavity Lee molds.

I prefer the captured pin design of the MP molds over the floating pin of the NOE molds.




This one is a 193 gr NOE hollow point for the .45 ACP. I don't have any problems getting this to expand either.

edwardware said:

Commercial bulletmaking didn't move from cast to jacketed by accident; it did so because jacketing produces better (better/cheaper/faster) bullets. We make and use cast bullets today for the same reason gearheads still tune carbureted engines; for satisfaction and versatility, not absolute performance.

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I don't agree. It's taken years for jacketed bullets to catch a good hardcast for consistent performance on game. Good cast bullets are cheaper, more consistent and withstand handgun velocities just fine.

Commercial bullet making went mostly from swaged to jacketed, not cast. This mostly because for 100yrs, shooters have been obsessed with velocity.

Walkalong said:

The question, in my mind, is do you need them and would they be worth the extra trouble to work up/cast, or do you just need a good plinking bullet, fast & easy to cast, shoots well, doesn't lead.

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That's my issue. I really like the idea of cast hollowpoints but I have a hard time justifying the effort when SWC's and LBT's work so great.

I only have one hp mould, Lyman 429421, and load it for 44 special. I cast a bunch out of chimney flashing lead, sized and lubed them and then tumble lubed them again. I sized and primed 44 special cases, expanded them a little with a turned down 45 expander button, seated over a light load of Unique (6 grains, IIRC), then sized the case again and crimped. My theory was that I'd keep more of the tumble lube on the pure lead if I didn't shave it off while seating. Anyway, I don't bother with the tumble any more. Only two animals shot with it plus a bunch into clay, sand, and wet catalogs. Perfect mushrooms in the clay and sand. No fragmenting in the catalog. The two animals, one coon and one woodchuck were in live traps, both shot in the forehead and both checked out instantly. Woodchuck had one eye blown out of the socket.

AR-Bossman said:

I guess that could be used as some sort of metric.

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Three eyes blown out of the socket is the performance level you’re looking for.

AR-Bossman said:

Do you have any pics of what they look like or is there much to recover? What kind of velocities does it take and do you have a guess on lead hardness?

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I don't have any pics. I'm pushing around 800 fps and the hardness is 10-11 bhn.

Texas10mm said:

I don't have any pics. I'm pushing around 800 fps and the hardness is 10-11 bhn.

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I have the devastator mold in .356 and I have issues with it. When casting with WW's, as it was meant to be used, it fragments terribly, and penetrates poorly as it pretty much blows apart. When I try casting softer alloys in hopes of keeping it together, I get deformation of the nose when seating because it's such a big cavity and the nose walls are so thin.
Subsequently, because of the fragmentation, I don't really see any real use for it other than as a varmint load.

Anyone had success with getting them to seat at a softer alloy, or mushrooming with good weight retention?

AR-Bossman said:

I'm starting to get into casting and of course you see the HP bullets and think.. woah I want a pile of those. But then I started to research and find videos and they are VERY underwhelming so far.

Most guys doing gel tests are super excited when they get one to finally expand. Compared to a factory made jacketed HP that knocks the piss outta the gel or whatever they are shooting.. the cast bullets seem to just not have much punch.

Do you think it's worth the effort to find the perfect lead alloy for HP expansion and test or stick with solid cast bullets and just buy the HP copper plated bullets, especially if you want them to be effective.

Also the good HP molds are spendy.

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My answer is, no.

What do you want hollow points for? Hunting? How many hunting rounds will you shoot in a year, half a dozen? Just buy good, proven factory bullets and develop a good load for them.

Do you want them for self-defense? Same rationale holds.

Since you said "I'm starting to get into casting" I would not recommend starting off with hollow point molds. There are more factors to consider when casting with HP molds and takes more of a learning curve to get good bullets. Mold temp and alloy mix being at the top of the list. For Hollow point the alloy has to match the expected pressure of the loaded round. It has to match the expected velocity, and the size of the hollow point cavity has to match the alloy used. Too big of a cavity then it may fragment. Too hard of an alloy it may fragment. Too soft of an alloy then the bullet may not grip the rifling. Velocity too low it will not open up. Something with a big flat nose will do most of what you can ask from a cast bullet.

It’s cool casting those big penta point MP bullets regardless of whether it makes an increase in performance. I don’t really use them for any serious use other than as described below, but the cavity does save you a little lead and might give you some options, especially if you use HiTec or powder coating.

If you shoot saboted pistol bullets in a muzzle loader then hollow points cast soft don’t really have any issues with accuracy. I can assure you their terminal performance on deer is satisfactory, at least for the 270 grain MP 45 SWC. Even if the nose blows off you still have 200 grains of bullet to punch thru the other side.

One of the projects on my list is to cast some hollow point bullets for my 38 Special revolvers. Mostly the project is to see if I can get an expanding bullet for the level load that I want to shoot.

I have an HP mold on hand and some soft lead for the casting and hopefully expansion of the bullets. I've found bullets cast of linotype or Lyman #2 hardness just do not expand at the slower velocities in low pressure handgun rounds.

Unfortunately, the project is low on the priority list. Maybe someday.

For the OP, HP bullets take a bit more care to cast than solid bullets. Get some experience with solid bullets before venturing in to HP bullets. It will avoid some disappointment.

That loaded-backward .44 caliber 220 grain Hollow Base Wad Cutter interested me.
Many years ago, I read a defunct pulp gun magazine article by a police officer who carried a snubby Colt New Service in .45 Colt.
He used a 250 grain soft cast HBWC loaded backward to a velocity of 850 FPS, which he referred to as a cup point load.
Reportedly, It was extremely effective, and did expand nicely.

silicosys4 said:

I have the devastator mold in .356 and I have issues with it. When casting with WW's, as it was meant to be used, it fragments terribly, and penetrates poorly as it pretty much blows apart. When I try casting softer alloys in hopes of keeping it together, I get deformation of the nose when seating because it's such a big cavity and the nose walls are so thin.
Subsequently, because of the fragmentation, I don't really see any real use for it other than as a varmint load.

Anyone had success with getting them to seat at a softer alloy, or mushrooming with good weight retention?

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Most reloading die sets are made for jacketed bullets. The expander ball in them is made for the shorter/smaller in diameter jacketed bullet. Custom expanders like this 1 or custom expander plugs from NEO bullet molds that use the lee universal expander die will solve the problem. I made this custom expander for my 9mm's. pictured above (post #4) are 125gr hp's I cast/loaded sized to .358" for that short bbl'd 9mm


A lot of people use a lee 38s&w expander or the lyman m-die to expand the 9mm cases to accept the larger/longer soft cast hp bullets.