.45ACP Hardball Duplication Loads with Case-Filling Powder & LRN 230gr

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Charlie98 said:
I know there are a lot of fans of TG, I'm not one of them, particularly for cast bullets. In my experience, it's a very hot powder, I don't think that's the hot setup, excuse the pun, for cast.
Click to expand...

Puns and Dad jokes are what get me through the day :)

I wouldn't use it with lead either. But it works like a champ with HiTek coated and jacketed. I will admit though, it is hot and dirty, has a very narrow load range, but it meters like water, and it only takes a pinch.
 
OP ... load where the powder fills most of the case under a 230gr LRN...
OP is teaching newbies to reloading.
OP Goal: avoid overloads or double loads by using a bulky powder that is easy to check safe load levels.
It's been too long since I reloaded .45 ACP for me to make recommendations but let us keep in mind OP's goal, not our favorite powder. As I recall a lot of efficient double base powders are dense enough that a double charge is not obvious.
 
Carl N. Brown said:
OP ... load where the powder fills most of the case under a 230gr LRN...
OP is teaching newbies to reloading.
OP Goal: avoid overloads or double loads by using a bulky powder that is easy to check safe load levels.
It's been too long since I reloaded .45 ACP for me to make recommendations but let us keep in mind OP's goal, not our favorite powder. As I recall a lot of efficient double base powders are dense enough that a double charge is not obvious.
Click to expand...

Well then newbies should learn how to properly weigh and dispense the proper amount of powder and not overcharge any powder.
Oops it overflowed, guess that is to much?:eek:
 
my go to load for .45 acp is 5.3 grains of HP38 / Win 231 under a cast 230 grain round nose I cast myself. Clocks plus or minus 800 fps. hdbiker
 
I'm not one to try a lot of different powders. I find one that works and that's where I stop. I started with Bullseye because that's what most recommended. Then the powder shortage hit and I ran out. Had to find something else to replace it. I was a trap shooter at the time and had 8 lbs of American Select which was advertised as a 12 ga. shotgun powder. I found a few people who were using it for 230 gr loads so gave it a try. It works very well and meters OK. It's a flake powder and fills the case pretty well. Burns a lot cleaner than Bullseye. I've seen load data for AS but it's all over the map. For me 5.0 grs/230 is a pretty hot load so I load down a bit but it might be just right for some. That's the only powder I use anymore for 45 acp, 9 mm and 38 spl. Keeps things real simple.:D Probably work well for 44 spl also but I don't own one anymore.
 
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American Select is indeed another large flake powder that should fit the bill for the OP. I shot 8 lbs of it during the shortage and it worked great for me in 9mm and all other calibers I tried it in.
 
I used a close Hodgdon approximate to Am Select - Namely International using my own work-ups in a lot of calibers using cast, including rifle. It too was extremely clean, but did get peaky IME (Hodgdon would say the same for some uses), so no pushing it. Very bulky at the time (seems they completely changed its characteristics recently), and about the only load data from Hodgdon was for cowboy action, and some on the bottle when first released.

I bought a 4lb jug of it for shotshell reloading (FANTASTIC for 12 Ga Hi-velocity 1 1/8 oz), but hung that up when I sold my Sizemaster, and needed to use some of it up. Ended up donating it to a youth trap league, and they were happy to have it... Along with a bunch of primers, wads, and hulls.

I had used Solo 1000 when it was still made in Scotland, and it as I have read is also very similar to AM Select... Bulky, approx speed range and curve, was very clean... Here is a flier I got, (as well as a can of Solo 1000) from a commercial reloader around 1992 during a visit, pistol data included:

750_5185.JPG

750_5184.JPG

750_5187.JPG
 
The short list for.45 hardball-duplicating & bulky powder thus far looks like:
Unique
VV N320
BE-86
American Select

I will look at the local shops to see if any of these are stocked locally. I will order anything online, but ability to get it locally counts for something.

Even with the added requirement of bulk, there seem to be plenty of powders to choose from. Maybe enough to use other characteristics to be the deciding factor: accuracy, versatility, cleanliness, ease of use with powder measure, etc.

Thanks again to all for sharing your experience.

Charlie98 said:
I like WST, just not with 230grn bullets trying to reach factory velocity, same with W231. Just my experience
Click to expand...
Roger that.

entropy said:
Trail Boss at 4 gr. will get to @750, with LRN. Might be a good start for the kids. I load 5.0 gr. Bullseye or 8 gr. AA#5 @ 850, but I wouldn't call either of them fluffy. I started loading pistol with 2.5-3.0 bullseye in .38, 148 WC's, then went whole hog up to compressed loads of Blue Dot in .357 when I was 15.
Click to expand...
I love Trail Boss for mild loads. I use it in .44mag, .38spl, and .357mag. I have plans to use it for my Webley MKVI with those Remington swaged lead bullets in .45Autorim brass. I also have plans to develop reduced loads for my .375H&H using TB. But TB can not duplicate .45ACP hardball from what I have learned.

OTOH, I want the reloads I mention in the OP to duplicate .45ACP hardball in a 1911 because:
1. All my practice, gun games (IDPA mostly), and self defense ammo utilizes GI .45ACP hardball mass & velocity (230gr at 850fps +/-). I know that mass+velocity works in all my .45ACP 1911s and we all know how it shoots.
2. I want my kiddos to experience and appreciate the whole process "from soup to nuts," going from dirty brass on the ground to shooting the ammo made from their own hands in IDPA for score.

Rule3 said:
Well then newbies should learn how to properly weigh and dispense the proper amount of powder and not overcharge any powder.
Oops it overflowed, guess that is to much?:eek:
Click to expand...
Proper weighing and dispensing of the powder charge is part of the training plan.

I am not afraid to introduce my or other kids to sports, pastimes, occupations, tools, or whatnot that many folk might consider hazardous or risky--if I think they can handle it maturity and physical development-wise. I do, however, employ several redundant safety measures (mechanical, training, situational, etc.) in order to reduce the risk and maximize the probability of success. I intend to closely supervise, but one more safety measure (bulky powder) reduces the probability of mishap. Think of it as the hand loading equivalent of a chamber flag.
 
I do not recommend Unique especially for a new reloader. Not because it's a bad powder but because it does not meter well. It might cause problems for your student.

Like said, there are MANY powders that work well. I use mostly W231/HP-38. I also like Zip, AA#2, AA#5 and a few others. I have yet to try W244 or W572 but I will. For me W231 is very accurate especially with cast bullets and it meters like water.

With a 230gr LRN bullet I charge 5.5gr W231 using a CCI LPP with a OAL of 1.265" . A very accurate load in my 1911. I use the same charge weight with a 200gr cast bullet.
 
I've found unique to meter at least as well as other Alliant flake powders and better than some, personally. OP is there a reason you have left Red and Green Dot off your potential go-to list as well as Promo? Just curious.
 
roo_ster said:
Howdy:

Looking for a .45ACP hardball duplication(1) load where the powder fills most of the case under a 230gr LRN.

Components:
.45ACP brass, used (most once-fired) separated by head stamp & cleaned
230gr LRN commercial cast bullet
Primer appropriate to the load recipe
Powder TBD

I aim to teach my kids how to reload (single stage then turret) this summer. I have mild & wild revolver loads covered with Trail Boss and 2400. I need a .45ACP hardball-equivalent that has a similar safety factor, case-capacity-wise, to make powder-checking easy and less stressful. Trail Boss just won't make the velocity required for .45ACP hardball. The most popular loads use such teeny-tiny volumes of powder. An accurate load would be nice, but accuracy is not the top objective this go 'round. Learning the skill and safety trumps accuracy at this point.

In addition to the usual tools, I also have my old shooting chrony to test the loads' velocity and SD. Use of that as safety device and load-development device is part of the tutorial.

Y'all's experience is much appreciated.

=============

My kiddos are starting to shoot me out of house & home. Boy loves him some .45ACP out of my 1911 and .38spl out of my 686. And 6.5x55 out of my Swede. Girl just got the bug for centerfire rifle and is happy to burn up 6.5G by the box after serious shooting (zero-ing & training) is done. Have taught them to scrounge for brass, now we need to take it to the next level.


(1) 230gr LRN at 850fps+/- from 5" bbl 1911
Click to expand...

Just clarifying. You want a "Hardball" load but then say you are using Lead . Perhaps some of the training can be on what the definition of "Hardball" is?
I always thought hardball was FMJ Ball ammo?

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/ball-ammunition-vs-hardball.261520/
 
DO NOT USE THIS DATA
I broke a rule and had 4 powders on the bench and trickled them on a cheap electron scale. Data fro Alliant and Hodgdon for 230 FMJ (TB is a lead bullet but close enough)

Here is a down and dirty quick picture of some powders in a 45 ACP case. Seems that Unique and Trail Boss are tied as to "fluffiness"
I have no use for TB little cheerios that float around the bench

I did not deliberately double charge them but a visually impaired person could see a double charge with BE, Unique and TB would be up and over. But that is a poor way to reload.

Crummy picture.

DSCF0903 (Large).JPG
 
1KPerDay said:
I've found unique to meter at least as well as other Alliant flake powders and better than some, personally. OP is there a reason you have left Red and Green Dot off your potential go-to list as well as Promo? Just curious.
Click to expand...
Not as many folk mentioned them.

OK, here is the revised (not as) short list
Unique
VV N320
BE-86
American Select
Red Dot
Green Dot
Promo

Rule3 said:
Just clarifying. You want a "Hardball" load but then say you are using Lead . Perhaps some of the training can be on what the definition of "Hardball" is?
I always thought hardball was FMJ Ball ammo?

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/ball-ammunition-vs-hardball.261520/
Click to expand...

Yes, 230gr LRN.

At the end of the day:
230gr LRN (hardball mass & shape)
Velocity in the neighborhood of GI hardball

I wrote "hardball duplication" load, so ,yes, not as precise as I ought to have been.

Here are some other options:
GI Hardball specs, but replace the FMJ with LRN
Hardball-ish
Hardball sans chemise
Hardball sem jaqueta
kova pallo ilman takkia
שווער פּילקע אָן רעקל
(Google Translate: Bringing ungrammatical near-gibberish to every language in which you'd like to mis-communicate!)

Rule3 said:
DO NOT USE THIS DATA
I broke a rule and had 4 powders on the bench and trickled them on a cheap electron scale. Data fro Alliant and Hodgdon for 230 FMJ (TB is a lead bullet but close enough)

Here is a down and dirty quick picture of some powders in a 45 ACP case. Seems that Unique and Trail Boss are tied as to "fluffiness"
I have no use for TB little cheerios that float around the bench

I did not deliberately double charge them but a visually impaired person could see a double charge with BE, Unique and TB would be up and over. But that is a poor way to reload.

Crummy picture.

View attachment 833315
Click to expand...

The picture does its job and then some. I can clearly see the point you are trying to make and appreciate it.

Plenty of folk seek to minimize the air space in the case under the bullet for other reasons. I would say safety is as good as most reasons for doing that. In the future (if they stick with hand loading) we can re-visit a .45ACP GI Hardball-like load with a 230gr LRN and cook something up with a different goal in mind.

But I have other things to do first. My top-level agenda as to cartridge type is:
Revolver Load (.38 spl)
Semi-auto pistol load (.45ACP Hardball-ish with LRN)
Bottleneck rifle for bolt action (.243Win)
Bottleneck rifle for semi-auto (6.5 Grendel)
 
We knew what you meant by 'hardball'... it's a fairly generic term. Hardball... that is to say a FMJ or similar profile bullet at factory levels, vs say a target-level wadcutter, etc.

Without the sarcasm, teaching new loaders with a bulky powder isn't a bad idea, but the concept of a reliable loading process is paramount... and I'm sure you know that.

Just for the record... Unique would be a good .38SPC powder as well, if I'm reading that last post correctly.
 
roo_ster said:
Not as many folk mentioned them.

OK, here is the revised (not as) short list
Unique
VV N320
BE-86
American Select
Red Dot
Green Dot
Promo
Click to expand...

OK, from that list do you find any similarities??. You have some pretty fast powders and then some medium slow powders. There is no correlation.

Seems from what you are asking for 45 acp and 38 special, Unique would "fill" the best, but depending on your powder measure it is not the best metering (no terrible) but it does vary.

#7 down to #32

https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/burn-rate-color.pdf
 
I know the OP was asking about loads for 230 gr. bullets, but don't know if he's locked on that or not.

I used to load light loads for my Glocks with Bullseye & 185 gr. Flat nose Berry's plated projectiles.

I can't remember how much I used - it was towards the lower end of the range of published data. For my particular gun, the absolute minimum charge wouldn't cycle the action properly.

But, the combo was very pleasant and soft-shooting, the 185gr. projectiles were pretty affordable, and, since I would charge 100 cartridges at a time, I would take a flashlight and look at them all as a batch - it would have been SUPER obvious if one had been short or over-filled (and it took a little more powder with the light bullet).
 
Here is a list of VMDs
VMD*gr=cc of space
higher VMD=Fluffier powder
BE86 is a good powder but not "fluffy" My lots had a computed VMD of about .09
I would need to double check but I don't think a double would overflow.
All these might powders might not have data for .45 but this pretty much covers the speed range fof what might be used.
These are listed VMDs in order of burn rate fast to slow

Powder VMD
Winchester WAALite 0.12658
Accurate Arms Nitro 100 ??
Alliant e3 0.14892
Hodgdon TITEWAD 0.13004
Ramshot Competition ??
Alliant Red Dot 0.1413
Alliant Promo .14 computed
Hodgdon CLAYS 0.1462
Alliant Clay Dot ??
IMR, Co Hi-Skor 700-X 0.1343
Alliant Bullseye 0.1064
Hodgdon TITEGROUP 0.08475
Alliant American Select 0.13414
Accurate Arms Solo 1000
Alliant Green Dot 0.1262
Winchester WST 0.1203
IMR, Co Trail Boss 0.21716
Winchester Super Handicap 0.08589
Hodgdon INTERNATIONAL 0.1266
Accurate Arms Solo 1250
IMR, Co PB 0.1205
VihtaVuori N320 0.121
Accurate Arms No. 2 0.0838
Ramshot Zip 0.08163
IMR, Co SR 7625 0.1046
Hodgdon HP-38 0.0926
Winchester 231 0.0931
Alliant 20/28 ??
Alliant Unique .132 0.1092 listed at .1092 my lot measured .132
Hodgdon UNIVERSAL 0.1099
Alliant Power Pistol 0.08891
VihtaVuori N330 0.1079
Alliant Herco 0.1122
Winchester WSF .084 my lots have measured closer to .092
VihtaVuori N340 0.1066
IMR, Co Hi-Skor 800-X 0.1071
IMR, Co SR 4756 0.11
Ramshot True Blue 0.0623
Hodgdon HS-6 0.0712
Winchester AutoComp 0.07871
CFE Pistol don't recall for sure but about .85 --fairly dense
Ramshot Silhouette 0.081
VihtaVuori 3N37 0.09123
VihtaVuori N350 0.0977
Hodgdon HS-7 0.068
VihtaVuori 3N38 ??
Alliant Blue Dot 0.0865
Accurate Arms No. 7 0.0653
Hodgdon LONGSHOT 0.08244

Listed VMDs so YMMV
Edit-
Note a few don't have VMDs that I could find
 
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I did some recent load workups for a 230gr LRN, and settled on 5.8gr BE-86. It get me 805 F.P.S. avg.
 
Your welcome, hope it helps
I took a .45 case when filled with water it gains 1.47 grams so 1.47cc of water.
I was thinking water was 1gram/cc.
So 1.47 cc of powder to the rim.

Will dig out my old Lee disk measure and tryit with powder when I have a chance.
 
Rule3 said:
OK, from that list do you find any similarities??. You have some pretty fast powders and then some medium slow powders. There is no correlation.

Seems from what you are asking for 45 acp and 38 special, Unique would "fill" the best, but depending on your powder measure it is not the best metering (no terrible) but it does vary.

#7 down to #32

https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/burn-rate-color.pdf
Click to expand...

I will start with the powder that is bulkiest with the starting load, i suppose. If a couple are close, maybe use some other characteristic as a tie breaker.
 
.38 Special is easy to load for but
you have a good sized case with a small charge of powder not taking up much space.
A double or triple charge with some powders will fit!
Needless to says the results would not be good.


One good thing is that a lot of the powders that will work for you in .45 will work in .38 special and the other way around.
 
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Dudedog said:
One good thing is that a lot of the powder that will work for you in .45 will work in .38 special and the other way around.
Click to expand...
I've noticed that as well. It makes sense since they are both relatively low pressure rounds. But I will say that some powders that work well in 45 may show some position sensitivity in 38.
 
I already have a mild load for .38spl using 158gr LSWC & Trail Boss and will use that to teach the mechanics of reloading.

On the other hand; after I teach how to reload rimmed revolver, rimless semi-auto, and bottleneck rifle ammo; a lesson on load development for a more sporty .38spl load might be just the ticket.
 
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