Gun for full-time RVing.

Status
Not open for further replies.
This residency definination / requirement is outdated and discriminatory. It clearly prohibits purchasing a firearm by anyone that doesn’t live in a government approved residence.
There is no requirement that your home be "government approved".

It is so vague as to be almost meaningless.
Not vague at all. We should actually celebrate the idea that "home is where you make it". It is a very liberal interpretation of residency by ATF.

For example I know people who travel in R.V.’s that own a small piece of land that only has a power pole and box to plug into, a place to park and a mailbox on the road. Does a power pole & electric meter prove residency to the BATF?
You didn't read the Ruling did you?

Why should homeless people be prohibited from buying a gun?
They aren't. If they can provide the documentation required. It won't be easy but is doable.



I have been reading articles about how the high cost of renting is forcing people to live in their cars or on the streets. If anything their need for self-defense is greater.
A tent in my back yard would be legal for anyone that wants to use it as their "residence address". They would just need a government document showing that address and their name. The easiest would be a traffic ticket or hunting license.

I wonder if this has ever be challenged in Court and how far it got?
If so, it didn't get very far because its been a requirement for decades. That Ruling just clarified what was already a requirement.
 
This residency definition / requirement is outdated and discriminatory. It clearly prohibits purchasing a firearm by anyone that doesn’t live in a government approved residence.

There is no requirement that your home be "government approved".

The BATF is requiring that the buyer have a address where they are living. This address is given by the Government.


It is so vague as to be almost meaningless.

Not vague at all. We should actually celebrate the idea that "home is where you make it". It is a very liberal interpretation of residency by ATF.

Where you tired when you wrote this or actually serious?


Why should homeless people be prohibited from buying a gun? I have been reading articles about how the high cost of renting is forcing people to live in their cars or on the streets. If anything their need for self-defense is greater.

They aren't. If they can provide the documentation required. It won't be easy but is doable.

If they have the money to hire a lawyer to overcome that legal hurdle they have enough more than enough money to rent or buy a place to live.


A tent in my back yard would be legal for anyone that wants to use it as their "residence address". They would just need a government document showing that address and their name. The easiest would be a traffic ticket or hunting license.

Why does it have to be a tent?

How about a sleeping bag thrown on the ground or just covering up with some leaves or nothing at all?

A traffic ticket is sufficient I.D. when filling out the Form 4473?


If so, it didn't get very far because its been a requirement for decades. That Ruling just clarified what was already a requirement.

Jim Crow Laws, Poll Taxes, "Separate but Equal" laws were also legal for decades.

Residency was never the intention of our Founding Fathers. As many of them were men of property they easily could have added that provision to the 2nd Amendment if they wanted gun owners to be living in a fixed location / dwelling. The fact they did not shows they believed that simply be a citizen satisfied the legal requirement to buy and own firearms. They recognized about how dangerous the requirement of owning property could lead to a ruling class.

In fact the United States throughout the late 18th, all of the 19th and early 20th centuries was a very mobile society. The western expansion meant people where constantly on the move, looking for better opportunities. Federal law did not prohibit me from pulling my wagon up to the hardware store along the trail and buying gun(s). Living in unsettled territory did not have a street address.

People living in cars have to have a address in order to be able to get a license for it. However the reason for the address is for taxation and revenue. As long they paying their taxes and fees to the Government they do not care where you actually live.

A R.V. is licensed for the same reason. In fact some (many when new) R.V.'s cost as much as a home

Why do I have to prove a physical address to buy a gun? Why shouldn’t my birth certificate proving I was born in the U.S. (or my citizenship documentation) be sufficient? All the other laws and regulations are intended to exclude people from being able to buy a firearm.

Think about this for a moment. Microchipping is proven technology. It is being used commonly on animals with no ill effects to the animal it is implanted in. As microchips are refined the amount of information that can be stored in it is increasing. We are easily standing at the door where the Government could require all people living in the United States be microchipped. Once done imagine the purposes the Government will use it for.

For example information could be downloaded in the chip proving I was born in the United States. So I walk into the LGS, they scan my chip and pesto instant confirmation!

The brave new world does not have to be all bad.
 
Last edited:
The BATF is requiring that the buyer have a address where they are living. This address is given by the Government.

I am going to give a "when I was at the academy, and in the field" response, our resident attorneys may give different answers. If so I will change this answer to reflect better information.

An address does not need to be a street and number. In rural areas, it can be an accurate description, suitable to locate your domicile. However, for purposes of a warrant, it should include township and range.

Seeing as you are trying to turn this into a game of semantics challenge instead of a real discussion, in many rural areas the town names came into existence before government recognition of the town. It is true that if we were to twist all meanings, back to Plato and the Summarians, we might decide that any group of people agreeing on standards for communication and behaviour may constitute a form of government, then you win. After all, once you have provided a person with information suitable to locate your domicile, then you and that person have formed what Plato may have seen as a proto-government.

Thus when in the dim past a person said, "I live just past Sutter's Ranch" that person would only ony have identified their location; but they would have formed a "government" and agreed that "Sutter's Ranch" is a reference location. I think that is stretching the definition of "Government" well past the breaking point.

Further, it has next to nothing to do with the topic.

The courts have ruled that campsites can form a temporary domicile with fourth amendment protections. That does have something to do with the topic.
 
dogtown tom said:
There is no requirement that your home be "government approved".

The BATF is requiring that the buyer have a address where they are living. This address is given by the Government.
Your argument changes. Above you mentioned a "government approved residence" by which I assumed was a "home.
Now, you claim the address must be "government approved"?
Still wrong.
While local governments may require builders/real estate developers to adhere to certain naming procedures, the federal government doesn't approve or disapprove my address.

dogtown tom said:
Not vague at all. We should actually celebrate the idea that "home is where you make it". It is a very liberal interpretation of residency by ATF.
Where you tired when you wrote this or actually serious?
Would you prefer that ATF require your state of residence to be only where your drivers license is issued, only where you own or rent property, only where you receive mail, only where you pay taxes, only where you are registered to vote? Where your legal "residency" is subject to state law?:scrutiny:
I sure as heck don't.


dogtown tom said:
They aren't. If they can provide the documentation required. It won't be easy but is doable.

If they have the money to hire a lawyer to overcome that legal hurdle they have enough more than enough money to rent or buy a place to live.
Why hire a lawyer when you can go to WalMart and buy a hunting license?;)

dogtown tom said:
A tent in my back yard would be legal for anyone that wants to use it as their "residence address". They would just need a government document showing that address and their name. The easiest would be a traffic ticket or hunting license.

Why does it have to be a tent?

How about a sleeping bag thrown on the ground or just covering up with some leaves or nothing at all?
I didn't write that a tent was the only thing required. A cardboard box works just as well. I know you can't be this obtuse.
If you reside in a hole under my back porch.....works just as well.

A traffic ticket is sufficient I.D. when filling out the Form 4473?
Really?:rofl:
After reading the instructions on EVERY freaking Form 4473 and the ATF Ruling on "State of Residence" you still don't understand the ID requirement?
Again, if the buyer/transferees government issued photo ID does not show his current residence address, supplemental government issued documents may be provided showing the buyers name and current residence address. So take a deep breath and ask yourself if a traffic ticket, where the officer wrote down your current address, is "government issued"?;)



dogtown tom said:
If so, it didn't get very far because its been a requirement for decades. That Ruling just clarified what was already a requirement.

Jim Crow Laws, Poll Taxes, "Separate but Equal" laws were also legal for decades.
So go ahead, file suit.



Residency was never the intention of our Founding Fathers. As many of them were men of property they easily could have added that provision to the 2nd Amendment if they wanted gun owners to be living in a fixed location / dwelling. The fact they did not shows they believed that simply be a citizen satisfied the legal requirement to buy and own firearms. They recognized about how dangerous the requirement of owning property could lead to a ruling class.
Yet the requirement to acquire firearms is more lenient than voting, paying taxes or getting a drivers license.

In fact the United States throughout the late 18th, all of the 19th and early 20th centuries was a very mobile society. The western expansion meant people where constantly on the move, looking for better opportunities. Federal law did not prohibit me from pulling my wagon up to the hardware store along the trail and buying gun(s). Living in unsettled territory did not have a street address.

People living in cars have to have a address in order to be able to get a license for it. However the reason for the address is for taxation and revenue. As long they paying their taxes and fees to the Government they do not care where you actually live.

A R.V. is licensed for the same reason. In fact some (many when new) R.V.'s cost as much as a home
No kidding.

Why do I have to prove a physical address to buy a gun? Why shouldn’t my birth certificate proving I was born in the U.S. (or my citizenship documentation) be sufficient? All the other laws and regulations are intended to exclude people from being able to buy a firearm.
Because Federal law says so. Gun Control Act of 1968.


Think about this for a moment. Microchipping is proven technology. It is being used commonly on animals with no ill effects to the animal it is implanted in. As microchips are refined the amount of information that can be stored in it is increasing. We are easily standing at the door where the Government could require all people living in the United States be microchipped. Once done imagine the purposes the Government will use it for.
Tin foil is on aisle 7.

For example information could be downloaded in the chip proving I was born in the United States. So I walk into the LGS, they scan my chip and pesto instant confirmation!

The brave new world does not have to be all bad.
:scrutiny:
 
I apologize if we have strayed off the OP's question but thought we were on topic with the OP's statement of
Plans are for the wife and I to full-time RV for a while after this career.
and the perils associated. Legal is the place to discuss semantics as misreading / misinterpreting a word or even a punctuation mark can drastically change your interpretation of a document.
I'm done...except for.
ATF doesn't give a whit about where you intend to return, but where you actually are making your home at the moment you fill out that Form 4473.
I am in 100% agreement on the ATF wants where you are making your home at the moment you fill out the Form 4473. I'm talking about once you establish a home within a State as described in https://www.atf.gov/file/55496/download "An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State" then any travel from that place as described later, "Furthermore, temporary travel, such as short-term stays, vacations, or other transient acts in a State are not sufficient to establish a State of residence because the individual demonstrates no intention of making a home in that State."
A year is not temporary.
That is a opinion. ATF does not define temporary or transient or makes mention of a specific days, weeks, months, years.
Oxford english dictionary defines "Temporary" as "Lasting for only a limited period of time; not permanent." and "Transient" as "Staying or working in a place for a short time only." Uslegal.com defines as "Transient generally means something that is temporary"
Which is entirely different than the situation you describe above: "...In the context of a RV lifestyle of take a "year and travel the USA" or that of a Over the Road trucker...."
No, exactly the same. You are temporary traveling from your established home, stopping and staying in places with intention of making that place a home

I could be misreading https://www.atf.gov/file/55496/download as it appears the intent of the ruling is to define when you are/are not a resident of a particular State, but it also include how a tranferee must prove his residence with in the particular State.
 
No, exactly the same. You are temporary traveling from your established home, stopping and staying in places with intention of making that place a home
Sorry, bad proof reading, meant to say.
...,stopping and staying in places with no intention of making that place a home.
 
dogtown tom said:
A year is not temporary.

That is a opinion. ATF does not define temporary or transient or makes mention of a specific days, weeks, months, years.
Oxford english dictionary defines "Temporary" as "Lasting for only a limited period of time; not permanent." and "Transient" as "Staying or working in a place for a short time only." Uslegal.com defines as "Transient generally means something that is temporary"
ATF decides what is "temporary".
Remember, the State of Residence Ruling is about being a resident of the state where you intend to acquire a firearm, not where you consider your permanent home.
Ex. You consider your "home" an apartment in Texas. You RV for the next year, never stopping in any one state for more than 3-4 days. For the purposes of acquiring firearms you are not a resident of any of the states you visit. But if one of those stops has you staying for an extended period at the same location, you may be a "resident" if you choose to acquire the required documentation.

While traveling that year, for the purposes of acquiring a firearm you most likely are not considered a resident of Texas because you are not actually living there.

Want muddier water? Look up the residency ruling for college students.:D
 
If you want a long gun a lever 357 might be a good choice. Decent round capacity but very non-tactical looking and I would assume legal in most locations. Plus good power with minimal recoil. A pistol may be a lot handier in a confined trailer but you'd need to be careful about magazine capacity in some states. I suppose a revolver might be the handgun equivalent of a lever gun in terms of looking non-tactical. I suppose you could get both chambered in the same caliber.
This has largely been my solution. A lever carbine in .357 gives you 10 rounds out of a 20 inch barrel at velocities that are going to stop most anything you might want to stop. In Grizzly country, Buffalo Bore makes a nice 180 grn hard cast that is ample for the job.
 
I'm not answering to legal aspects.
In a campground, with others in thin walled campers only feet away, I would think that a shotgun would be advisable.
A short, cyl bore barrel loaded with #4 buck would be devastating at 'inside-the -camper' range.
Ammo is readily available for everything from birds to bears.
 
I have seen several online tests showing that buckshot loadings in shotguns have quite a bit of barrier blindness. Several people are noting that barrier sensitivity is much better than barrier blindness in a campground environment. Toward that, I would look for very lite ammunition.

I would start with 22mag. I realize that many would be turned off by any rimfire and I think we may have found the place for one of the stars in the "Solution looking for a problem" lineup, the .22 tcm.

It is available in a bolt action rifle, which is legal in most places. Further, it has a very lite bullet, as such it should be very barrier sensitive (however, I have seen no reports that support this).

The biggest minus, that I see, is the relative rarity of the ammunition.
 
I would think, that inside an RV of MAYBE 300sf, a shotgun and a load of basic #6 or #5 at what would amount to almost point blank contact range should be more than sufficient and minimize penetration to others nearby
 
BOY this thread has evolved from my original post. It was to be about shotguns when RVing. I’m covered under LEOSA for my handguns and just got a Mossberg 500 for my long gun. Assault weapon definition in most states I’ve researched talk about semi-auto rifles with detachable magazines, which is why I chose ole mossy.
 
Yeah, but you still need a lever gun because they are so much fun!

Seriously though, you seem pretty well set. Space and weight is a premium on the road so keeping it simple is good. As you travel and talk with folks you will decide if you want anything more or different. But as a LEO you already know what you "need". I've never encountered any state law against a pump shotgun with a tube mag and no pistol grip. You may also decide after traveling a bit that in the future you prefer just a few specific states and then you can tune your road armory to that situation's possibilities or restrictions.
 
True, but you actually have to live at the address you write on the Form 4473.


The buyer must list his current residence address. If his government issued photo ID does not show that address, then another government issued document showing the buyers name and that current address may be used.

It's not about satisfying the seller by having the DL match the address, its about the Federal felony you commit if you use an address where you are not currently living. When a buyer/transferee signs the 4473 they are certifying under penalty of law that their answers are "true, correct and complete". Those that actually read the instructions and the statements on those forms would know that....but no one bothers to read the instructions to 10a & 10b either.

About once a month someone will try and fill out a 4473 and say " I know the paperwork has to match my DL, so I'll use my old address"...…….I then scream NO GUN FOR YOU! in my head while pointing out the felony Mr Customer was about to commit. I then tell them what documents they can use to show current address. Sometimes they have to come back later.



Only if issued by a government. Bills from a private business do not count.

But what about the instance where the CCW and the DL addresses are not the same?
 
Before I unwatch MY OWN THREAD, how many times do I need to say that I will be taking my MOSSBERG 500 and the handguns Im covered with through LEOSA.

You guys can take the BATF and 4473 residency discussion SOMEWHERE ELSE.
 
Last edited:
Your Mossberg should work just fine, although I would not use buckshot; penetrates too much.
 
One of the newer detachable magazine 590's or 870's might be a good choice for traveling. For the states that don't allow a loaded longgun while driving they would allow simple and safe loading and unloading.
 
One of the newer detachable magazine 590's or 870's might be a good choice for traveling. For the states that don't allow a loaded longgun while driving they would allow simple and safe loading and unloading.
Unless they are a characteristic that is outlawed in some of the more restrictive states.
 
Out to 15 yards, 000 is my choice. Beyond that I select slug.
When the walls involved as almost paper thin and the distance is maybe 25' or so inside the RV, too much penetration if you miss; and when the next door RV is mere feet away, I will disagree.

If you're talking defending the farm, that's different.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top